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This topic is discussed regularly on HN. Popular alternatives are Fastmail and protonmail (surprisingly not Outlook). I use Fastmail. I won’t touch protonmail.

This topic is discussed regularly on HN. Popular alternatives are Fastmail and protonmail (surprisingly not Outlook). I use Fastmail. I won’t touch protonmail. Their claims about privacy and encryption are mostly false and if they deceive about that, what else are they deceiving about? Fastmail has been around for ages, much longer than protonmail, even longer than Gmail, and is completely no-nonsense. Good apps and a good web interface. Also: “Fastmail developers are among active contributors to the widely used Cyrus IMAP open source software project and include the lead developer and maintainer of Perl module Mail::IMAPTalk. Fastmail supported the development of the free software webmail interface Roundcube and developed JMAP – a new open email protocol.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastmail https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastmail

dhruvrrp 4y ago
But fastmail is based in Australia, which means they can't be trusted for privacy/encryption following the The Assistance and Access Act/Anti-Encryption act. https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/national-security/lawful-access-telecommunications/data-encryption https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/natio...
- pembrook 4y ago
  Encrypted email just isn’t a thing. The minute you send a message to someone else it’s out in the wild.
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    This. Get over it. Your email is not private or anonymous and never will be. Once you accept that, ProtonMail's value proposition is meaningless. ProtonMail must answer to subpoenas by handing over stored emails and IP addresses, just like everyone else. Here's one example: https://techcrunch.com/2021/09/06/protonmail-logged-ip-address-of-french-activist-after-order-by-swiss-authorities https://techcrunch.com/2021/09/06/protonmail-logged-ip-addre...
blep_ 4y ago
> Their claims about privacy and encryption are mostly false First time I've heard this, can you expand on it?
helloworld11 4y ago
You're saying that Swiss-based Protonmail is worse for privacy than Australian-based (remember Australia's horrible digital privacy laws?) Fastmail? I'd love to see if you can even slightly substantiate that claim. Fastmail, by OZ law can legally be forced to allow snooping on its users without even telling them, while Protonmail has actually fought hard to stop snooping even in edge cases, yet you say you "won't touch" them? Some specific reason?
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  > You're saying that Swiss-based Protonmail is worse for privacy than Australian-based fastmail? I'm claiming that neither of them are good for privacy. As a sibling wrote so well: "encrypted email just isn’t a thing. The minute you send a message to someone else it’s out in the wild." I have zero interest in my email being encrypted or protected or anonymous. So ProtonMail's value proposition is meaningless to me. But the fact that ProtonMail masquerades and markets their email as private and encrypted is the problem. They're subject to subpoenas, just like everyone else, and if they are going to market their service as private, encrypted, or anonymous, then they are misleading at best and lying at worst: https://techcrunch.com/2021/09/06/protonmail-logged-ip-address-of-french-activist-after-order-by-swiss-authorities https://techcrunch.com/2021/09/06/protonmail-logged-ip-addre... https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/05/how-protonmail-lost-the-public-trust-it-needs-to-do-business.html https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/05/how-protonmail-lost-th... https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/comment/e21tfqw/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/comment/e... Lots of other interesting dirt if you do some basic google searches. So I chose Fastmail because of their honesty. I know what I'm getting. Their prices are great, apps are great, web interface is great. They've been around since 1999 -- longer than Gmail. I used their free tier first then moved to paid with a custom name some time ago. Clearly they're not going anywhere. I'm not sure what else you can ask for in an email provider?

dhruvrrp 4y ago

But fastmail is based in Australia, which means they can't be trusted for privacy/encryption following the The Assistance and Access Act/Anti-Encryption act. https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/national-security/lawful-access-telecommunications/data-encryption https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/natio...

pembrook 4y ago
Encrypted email just isn’t a thing. The minute you send a message to someone else it’s out in the wild.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  This. Get over it. Your email is not private or anonymous and never will be. Once you accept that, ProtonMail's value proposition is meaningless. ProtonMail must answer to subpoenas by handing over stored emails and IP addresses, just like everyone else. Here's one example: https://techcrunch.com/2021/09/06/protonmail-logged-ip-address-of-french-activist-after-order-by-swiss-authorities https://techcrunch.com/2021/09/06/protonmail-logged-ip-addre...

blep_ 4y ago

> Their claims about privacy and encryption are mostly false First time I've heard this, can you expand on it?

helloworld11 4y ago

You're saying that Swiss-based Protonmail is worse for privacy than Australian-based (remember Australia's horrible digital privacy laws?) Fastmail? I'd love to see if you can even slightly substantiate that claim. Fastmail, by OZ law can legally be forced to allow snooping on its users without even telling them, while Protonmail has actually fought hard to stop snooping even in edge cases, yet you say you "won't touch" them? Some specific reason?

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
> You're saying that Swiss-based Protonmail is worse for privacy than Australian-based fastmail? I'm claiming that neither of them are good for privacy. As a sibling wrote so well: "encrypted email just isn’t a thing. The minute you send a message to someone else it’s out in the wild." I have zero interest in my email being encrypted or protected or anonymous. So ProtonMail's value proposition is meaningless to me. But the fact that ProtonMail masquerades and markets their email as private and encrypted is the problem. They're subject to subpoenas, just like everyone else, and if they are going to market their service as private, encrypted, or anonymous, then they are misleading at best and lying at worst: https://techcrunch.com/2021/09/06/protonmail-logged-ip-address-of-french-activist-after-order-by-swiss-authorities https://techcrunch.com/2021/09/06/protonmail-logged-ip-addre... https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/05/how-protonmail-lost-the-public-trust-it-needs-to-do-business.html https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/05/how-protonmail-lost-th... https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/comment/e21tfqw/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/comment/e... Lots of other interesting dirt if you do some basic google searches. So I chose Fastmail because of their honesty. I know what I'm getting. Their prices are great, apps are great, web interface is great. They've been around since 1999 -- longer than Gmail. I used their free tier first then moved to paid with a custom name some time ago. Clearly they're not going anywhere. I'm not sure what else you can ask for in an email provider?