6 ms·

I knew about the alcoholism rates, but had always assumed it was a socio-economic / situational driven thing. I understand that historically it was used in som

I knew about the alcoholism rates, but had always assumed it was a socio-economic / situational driven thing. I understand that historically it was used in some sense to control and indeed damage the Native Americans by the colonists? To what extent alcohol was completely new etc I do not know

boomboomsubban 4y ago
>To what extent alcohol was completely new etc I do not know Kind of a tricky question that is somewhat covered in my link. Alcohol was definitely brewed in the Americas pre-Columbus, but by the seventeenth century alcohol was largely unknown to the Natives interacting with the colonists.
- amanaplanacanal 4y ago
  I always wonder how much was lost in the population crash caused by the introduction of old world diseases.
- LarsDu88 4y ago
  Tejuino is a precolonial alcoholic beverage that is still enjoyed today. It's ABV is incredibly low compared to anything you'd buy in a modern 7/11 however. The tarahumara people's have more alcoholic version called tesguino that is only drunk once per year as the preparation process is labor intensive, and the drink goes bad rather quickly
  - bumby 4y ago
    I think your points add much needed nuance, but isn't there a possibility that both are true? I.e., both your examples may be true for Native Americans in present-day Mexico while the OP's point could be true for other groups like the Lakota at Pine Ridge. (I'm not claiming any knowledge on the subject, just questioning whether both points have to be mutually exclusive)
lisper 4y ago
It is very hard to tease genetic factors out from socio-economic ones, but IMHO it seems plausible that a population that has been exposed to alcohol for a long time (hundreds of generations) may have been better selected for higher tolerance than a population that has been exposed only recently (a few dozen generations, and with modern technology making selection pressure lower in general).
- kevinmchugh 4y ago
  The evo-bio story of alcohol is confusing though, since fermentation has been present in East Asia as long as anywhere, and there's a large part of the population there that has the alcohol flush reaction. You could tell the story as like, alcohol puts pressure on a population to evolve better responses, and with enough time the flush evolves and that helps limit drinking. But that's pretty just-so.
  - lisper 4y ago
    Yeah, I'm not saying that this is actually true, only that it's not absurd on its face. As I understand it (and I am absolutely not an expert here) North American indigenous populations separated from Asians at the end of the ice age, i.e. ~10,000 years ago, and since then had no exposure to alcohol. That seems like plenty of time for genetic predisposition to alcohol tolerance to be reduced. So it's possible and worthy of serious consideration and investigation. Whether it's actually true is a completely different question, one where the jury is still pretty clearly out.
    - LarsDu88 4y ago
      This is simply not true. Indigenous peoples of mesoamerica have drunk fermented maize beverages for as long as maize has been cultivated. Tejuino is still a quite popular drink in Mexico. Arguably what has changed is the ABV of such beverages. Post-industrial alcohol percentages are way higher than what precolonial mesoamericans, ancient Greeks, and vikings we're drinking
      - 4y ago
citizenpaul 4y ago
[flagged]
- mathieuh 4y ago
  What a callous way to look at the world.
  - citizenpaul 4y ago
    A single opinion on a single subject is not a sweeping view of the entire world. Despite being treated as disposable trash by the world I actually have unflattering but overall optimistic view of the world. I believe people are mostly good but more selfish. All these problems are not from lack of help but lack of personal empowerment. The world has this deranged flow to it lately that people "need" help on the most basic survival aspects of life. It has become profitable to keep the problem rolling. Nothing in the "help" world is about empowering people. Its about keeping people stuck in various stages of "help" but always pulling the rug when they get momentum.
    - archagon 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      > The world has this deranged flow to it lately that people "need" help on the most basic survival aspects of life Well yeah, we're a social/interdependent species. We generally don't do particularly well trying to survive purely independently, nor has any significant percentage of mankind ever really tried (or needed to). The "pulling the rug" part is the one fair point you make - it's often true that we expect once people reach a certain stage they can suddenly manage by themselves. But these are often people that for whatever reason lack close friendship circles and are alienated from their families and communities, i.e. the very people that you and I turn to for help all the time without even thinking about it.

boomboomsubban 4y ago

>To what extent alcohol was completely new etc I do not know Kind of a tricky question that is somewhat covered in my link. Alcohol was definitely brewed in the Americas pre-Columbus, but by the seventeenth century alcohol was largely unknown to the Natives interacting with the colonists.

amanaplanacanal 4y ago
I always wonder how much was lost in the population crash caused by the introduction of old world diseases.
LarsDu88 4y ago
Tejuino is a precolonial alcoholic beverage that is still enjoyed today. It's ABV is incredibly low compared to anything you'd buy in a modern 7/11 however. The tarahumara people's have more alcoholic version called tesguino that is only drunk once per year as the preparation process is labor intensive, and the drink goes bad rather quickly
- bumby 4y ago
  I think your points add much needed nuance, but isn't there a possibility that both are true? I.e., both your examples may be true for Native Americans in present-day Mexico while the OP's point could be true for other groups like the Lakota at Pine Ridge. (I'm not claiming any knowledge on the subject, just questioning whether both points have to be mutually exclusive)

lisper 4y ago

It is very hard to tease genetic factors out from socio-economic ones, but IMHO it seems plausible that a population that has been exposed to alcohol for a long time (hundreds of generations) may have been better selected for higher tolerance than a population that has been exposed only recently (a few dozen generations, and with modern technology making selection pressure lower in general).

kevinmchugh 4y ago
The evo-bio story of alcohol is confusing though, since fermentation has been present in East Asia as long as anywhere, and there's a large part of the population there that has the alcohol flush reaction. You could tell the story as like, alcohol puts pressure on a population to evolve better responses, and with enough time the flush evolves and that helps limit drinking. But that's pretty just-so.
- lisper 4y ago
  Yeah, I'm not saying that this is actually true, only that it's not absurd on its face. As I understand it (and I am absolutely not an expert here) North American indigenous populations separated from Asians at the end of the ice age, i.e. ~10,000 years ago, and since then had no exposure to alcohol. That seems like plenty of time for genetic predisposition to alcohol tolerance to be reduced. So it's possible and worthy of serious consideration and investigation. Whether it's actually true is a completely different question, one where the jury is still pretty clearly out.
  - LarsDu88 4y ago
    This is simply not true. Indigenous peoples of mesoamerica have drunk fermented maize beverages for as long as maize has been cultivated. Tejuino is still a quite popular drink in Mexico. Arguably what has changed is the ABV of such beverages. Post-industrial alcohol percentages are way higher than what precolonial mesoamericans, ancient Greeks, and vikings we're drinking
    - 4y ago

citizenpaul 4y ago

[flagged]

mathieuh 4y ago
What a callous way to look at the world.
- citizenpaul 4y ago
  A single opinion on a single subject is not a sweeping view of the entire world. Despite being treated as disposable trash by the world I actually have unflattering but overall optimistic view of the world. I believe people are mostly good but more selfish. All these problems are not from lack of help but lack of personal empowerment. The world has this deranged flow to it lately that people "need" help on the most basic survival aspects of life. It has become profitable to keep the problem rolling. Nothing in the "help" world is about empowering people. Its about keeping people stuck in various stages of "help" but always pulling the rug when they get momentum.
  - archagon 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    > The world has this deranged flow to it lately that people "need" help on the most basic survival aspects of life Well yeah, we're a social/interdependent species. We generally don't do particularly well trying to survive purely independently, nor has any significant percentage of mankind ever really tried (or needed to). The "pulling the rug" part is the one fair point you make - it's often true that we expect once people reach a certain stage they can suddenly manage by themselves. But these are often people that for whatever reason lack close friendship circles and are alienated from their families and communities, i.e. the very people that you and I turn to for help all the time without even thinking about it.