5 ms·

I don't know the details, but they are very very poor (Pine Ridge is often calculated to have the highest unemployment and lowest per capita income in the entir

I don't know the details, but they are very very poor (Pine Ridge is often calculated to have the highest unemployment and lowest per capita income in the entire country; life expectancy is ~50 years), and I'm not sure how forrested the land is, it's mostly grassland/prairie. The OP article suggested that many people ordinarily use propane heat, which normally can be delivered just fine. I don't know enough to say why not firewood, but I'd guess expense and convenience. Aha, this other article mentions a firewood shortage, but doesn't say details: > In homes heated by firewood, there is another battle. Yellow Hair says there is a firewood shortage happening on the reservation, but communities are coming together to help one another. “Lending that helping hand, when they can and where they can,” said Yellow Hair. Keeping people warm is an issue across much of the Pine Ridge Reservation, with a firewood shortage and propane trucks jelling up from the cold. —https://www.blackhillsfox.com/2022/12/22/one-natural-phenomenon-after-another-people-pine-ridge-reservation-tackle-extreme-circumstances/ https://www.blackhillsfox.com/2022/12/22/one-natural-phenome... And here's an article about life in Pine Ridge generally: > Among the most impoverished of these reservations, Pine Ridge is plagued by an 80 to 90 percent unemployment rate with a median individual income of $4,000 a year, according to the Re-Member nonprofit organisation’s 2007 statistics. — https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2016/11/2/life-on-the-pine-ridge-native-american-reservation https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2016/11/2/life-on-the-pin...

brookst 4y ago
Thank you for the context. It’s a little cringey to read all of the comparatively wealthy and privileged comments that boil down to “why didn’t they just spend lots of money on equipment and supplies.”
- Aeolun 4y ago
  Another question is why they all still live there?
  - bombcar 4y ago
    It’s a reservation and they’re the natives there. And the average is quite young, so I think everyone who can escape does (which can harm the remainder in other ways).
    - itsagavin 4y ago
      I spent time in ND, SD and MN matching online and phone wagering with receptive reservations. IMHO if you want to escape the res you gotta go far far away. Think 1000 miles. The racism in the Midwest is so entrenched that they solved the who!e uncomfortable mingling with people you hate thing by COMPLETELY excluding natives from society. The amount of times I saw natives bounced just for walking in to a bar in Fargo was disgusting. Its just assumed by race they are drunk, poor, vagrant and violent.
      - doodlebugging 4y ago
        This also happens in Montana and around Four Corners, wherever there are reservations and non-native Americans mingling. The old bias against drunken Indians rears its head. Local characterizations propagate the narrative that the reservation is full of lazy drunks, dopeheads, or abusive and combative individuals. I was able to work with members of the Ute and Navajo tribes in Four Corners years ago when our company worked on reservation lands and was required to hire a percentage of local laborers. Those guys worked as hard as the rest of us out in the July sun down in the hot canyons. They laughed at and with each other poking jibes at each other since their tribes were traditionally not allies. It was all good-natured ribbing and I'm sure they knew each other or of each other before working with us. They worked the length of our contract in the area and had few issues with attendance or effort. Local whites always talked down about the natives but I found them to be as dependable as Mexican and central American immigrants (legal or otherwise) that I worked with in Texas and other states. These people needed jobs and were willing to work to keep a job and the quality of their efforts was on par or better than the quality of local labor. In contrast, our company cycled through local non-native help. Many of those people appeared and worked long enough to earn a paycheck and then disappeared. Some even played the employment game where a group of friends hired out to each of the three non-local companies and on any given day your rolls would show all of them working with one of your crews, some of them with one of your crews, or none of them with your crews that day. They went where they thought the best pay opportunity of the day would be and had a friend sign them in where they were expected to be so they could earn a check there too. This went on for weeks until one of our crews had a problem in the field and in the process of sorting it out and looking for a scapegoat, they went through the rolls of potential crew members who should have had responsibility and discovered that several people listed as being present and working did not show up at all. Since the three companies were in the same business and everyone knew everyone else our party manager had a talk with the other guys and they compared employee rolls and discovered all the overlap and the system of sign-ins. All of those people were fired immediately when they showed up for their next day's work. These were ordinary white guys who all lived in that area.
  - Bilal_io 4y ago
    For the same reason they cannot stockpile. Moving is very expensive. Then how can they afford rent in a more expensive area? How will they find jobs?
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      We even have the first Gen Z Congressperson being rejected from housing due to low credit score, despite the fact that his salary as a future Congressperson is a known six-figure value. Once society has deemed you too poor to be useful, it is hard to escape that designation even if you make it out.
      - vorpalhex 4y ago
        Your salary has very little to do with your credit score. Length of history + history of repayment.
        bobthepanda 4y ago
        Of course, but also it is a little ridiculous that someone with $170k+ salary is totally unable to rent at most places due to automatic credit score rejection, despite pretty much everything being below the rule of thumb for rent and salary.
        vorpalhex 4y ago
        I have a relative who has generally been in and out of debt. Occasionally, she convinces someone in the family to give her a cash infusion - enough to clear the debts. She goes back into debt right after. In her youth, she didn't make much. She has since become a skilled professional though and now makes a very good salary. She is still in debt. I have friends who make mind boggling amounts of money and also have amazing debt. As they have made more their debt has gotten worse, not better. A credit score says whether or not you have paid back your debts. Making more money does not fix the broken behavior - it often times makes it worse.
  - katbyte 4y ago
    If someone doesn’t have the money to stock pile some food and fuel do you think they can afford to move?
    - jkepler 4y ago
      Bus fare, then a homeless shelter until you find work in your new city?
      - poulpy123 4y ago
        Are you seriously advising them to leave their home to become homeless in a place they know nobody ?
      - Kye 4y ago
        So fight for space in a homeless shelter. Get robbed the days you find a bed. Get robbed or stripped of everything by the cops the days you don't and have to sleep outside. I've never been in the situation, but accounts from people who've survived it are a search away.
      - shepherdjerred 4y ago
        It's that easy folks!
      - msrenee 4y ago
        Where do you want them to go? Rapid? Chadron? Scottsbluff? These aren't places with a ton of resources either. It's not like they can just pick up and go be homeless somewhere with good services at the cost of bus fare.
      - selfmodruntime 4y ago
        Places won’t employ you without an address. Homes won’t be rent to you without a job.
  - itsagavin 4y ago
    I can answer this as a dude that started off life at 11 homeless and went from there. Live in unquestionable poverty along with your support network of $4000 a year earners? Or take a bus to any random American city and get ready for your how many days can a green recruit last in Nam scenario?
    - citizenpaul 4y ago
      >green recruit last in Nam scenario How is it any different where you came from? Once you become a teenager the gangs and predatory "adults" start closing in on you to either join/serve or be an outsider they abuse for amusement. I say this from similar situation as you but I was 16. Much easier since I could legally work in restaurants (which is what I did). I have no idea how you would make it without the ability to work. I'm not saying that I want anyone to go through what I or you did. However it was blindingly clear to me even as a child that staying was equal to dying. I don't see how these people stay in these places having been there myself. Someone posted the average income at pine ridge is <$4k. You can work for minimum wage for almost a 400% increase in income by leaving.
      - Kye 4y ago
        Where are they going to go where they won't be at a severe disadvantage due to racism and lack of both money and connections?
        therealdrag0 4y ago
        Yes they’d be at a disadvantage. Wouldn’t you still make that choice? Why would you voluntarily stay in a place so poor? Can it really get any worse?
        selfmodruntime 4y ago
        Anywhere else. You make it sound like racism is bad enough to keep them unemployed
        pvaldes 4y ago
        > Where are they going to go where they won't be at a severe disadvantage due to racism and lack of both money and connections? Mexico. This people needs the wisdom of a Mexican coacher. Thriving despite racism, lack of money and no friends in town, but with a golden, fully legal document of citizenship granting free pass, and speaking the same language as everybody else?. Yep, Challenge accepted
  - trollied 4y ago
    I guess you don’t understand how things work outside of your circle. They’re not software engineers on ridiculous salaries. Lots of people live day to day, not knowing where their next meal is coming from, never mind prepping a huge stockpile for storm events, or being able to spend thousands moving elsewhere & being able to afford said move/rent elsewhere/get work etc. People’s biggest problems are mostly not how to pass a FAANG interview.
  - Ericson2314 4y ago
    imagine a ghetto but instead of being in a major city like Venice it is 1000s of miles away from any real economic opportunity.
    - therealdrag0 4y ago
      Thousands of miles? Check a map.
- daniel_reetz 4y ago
  I grew up in North Dakota (where there are a number of reservations) and worked on a project in a First Nations village in Ontario. Comments here exhibit zero awareness of what crushing poverty (and reservation dynamics) can do to people. Or, for that matter, what enormous privilege and lucky circumstances can do to people.

brookst 4y ago

Thank you for the context. It’s a little cringey to read all of the comparatively wealthy and privileged comments that boil down to “why didn’t they just spend lots of money on equipment and supplies.”

Aeolun 4y ago
Another question is why they all still live there?
- bombcar 4y ago
  It’s a reservation and they’re the natives there. And the average is quite young, so I think everyone who can escape does (which can harm the remainder in other ways).
  - itsagavin 4y ago
    I spent time in ND, SD and MN matching online and phone wagering with receptive reservations. IMHO if you want to escape the res you gotta go far far away. Think 1000 miles. The racism in the Midwest is so entrenched that they solved the who!e uncomfortable mingling with people you hate thing by COMPLETELY excluding natives from society. The amount of times I saw natives bounced just for walking in to a bar in Fargo was disgusting. Its just assumed by race they are drunk, poor, vagrant and violent.
    - doodlebugging 4y ago
      This also happens in Montana and around Four Corners, wherever there are reservations and non-native Americans mingling. The old bias against drunken Indians rears its head. Local characterizations propagate the narrative that the reservation is full of lazy drunks, dopeheads, or abusive and combative individuals. I was able to work with members of the Ute and Navajo tribes in Four Corners years ago when our company worked on reservation lands and was required to hire a percentage of local laborers. Those guys worked as hard as the rest of us out in the July sun down in the hot canyons. They laughed at and with each other poking jibes at each other since their tribes were traditionally not allies. It was all good-natured ribbing and I'm sure they knew each other or of each other before working with us. They worked the length of our contract in the area and had few issues with attendance or effort. Local whites always talked down about the natives but I found them to be as dependable as Mexican and central American immigrants (legal or otherwise) that I worked with in Texas and other states. These people needed jobs and were willing to work to keep a job and the quality of their efforts was on par or better than the quality of local labor. In contrast, our company cycled through local non-native help. Many of those people appeared and worked long enough to earn a paycheck and then disappeared. Some even played the employment game where a group of friends hired out to each of the three non-local companies and on any given day your rolls would show all of them working with one of your crews, some of them with one of your crews, or none of them with your crews that day. They went where they thought the best pay opportunity of the day would be and had a friend sign them in where they were expected to be so they could earn a check there too. This went on for weeks until one of our crews had a problem in the field and in the process of sorting it out and looking for a scapegoat, they went through the rolls of potential crew members who should have had responsibility and discovered that several people listed as being present and working did not show up at all. Since the three companies were in the same business and everyone knew everyone else our party manager had a talk with the other guys and they compared employee rolls and discovered all the overlap and the system of sign-ins. All of those people were fired immediately when they showed up for their next day's work. These were ordinary white guys who all lived in that area.
- Bilal_io 4y ago
  For the same reason they cannot stockpile. Moving is very expensive. Then how can they afford rent in a more expensive area? How will they find jobs?
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    We even have the first Gen Z Congressperson being rejected from housing due to low credit score, despite the fact that his salary as a future Congressperson is a known six-figure value. Once society has deemed you too poor to be useful, it is hard to escape that designation even if you make it out.
    - vorpalhex 4y ago
      Your salary has very little to do with your credit score. Length of history + history of repayment.
      - bobthepanda 4y ago
        Of course, but also it is a little ridiculous that someone with $170k+ salary is totally unable to rent at most places due to automatic credit score rejection, despite pretty much everything being below the rule of thumb for rent and salary.
        vorpalhex 4y ago
        I have a relative who has generally been in and out of debt. Occasionally, she convinces someone in the family to give her a cash infusion - enough to clear the debts. She goes back into debt right after. In her youth, she didn't make much. She has since become a skilled professional though and now makes a very good salary. She is still in debt. I have friends who make mind boggling amounts of money and also have amazing debt. As they have made more their debt has gotten worse, not better. A credit score says whether or not you have paid back your debts. Making more money does not fix the broken behavior - it often times makes it worse.
- katbyte 4y ago
  If someone doesn’t have the money to stock pile some food and fuel do you think they can afford to move?
  - jkepler 4y ago
    Bus fare, then a homeless shelter until you find work in your new city?
    - poulpy123 4y ago
      Are you seriously advising them to leave their home to become homeless in a place they know nobody ?
    - Kye 4y ago
      So fight for space in a homeless shelter. Get robbed the days you find a bed. Get robbed or stripped of everything by the cops the days you don't and have to sleep outside. I've never been in the situation, but accounts from people who've survived it are a search away.
    - shepherdjerred 4y ago
      It's that easy folks!
    - msrenee 4y ago
      Where do you want them to go? Rapid? Chadron? Scottsbluff? These aren't places with a ton of resources either. It's not like they can just pick up and go be homeless somewhere with good services at the cost of bus fare.
    - selfmodruntime 4y ago
      Places won’t employ you without an address. Homes won’t be rent to you without a job.
- itsagavin 4y ago
  I can answer this as a dude that started off life at 11 homeless and went from there. Live in unquestionable poverty along with your support network of $4000 a year earners? Or take a bus to any random American city and get ready for your how many days can a green recruit last in Nam scenario?
  - citizenpaul 4y ago
    >green recruit last in Nam scenario How is it any different where you came from? Once you become a teenager the gangs and predatory "adults" start closing in on you to either join/serve or be an outsider they abuse for amusement. I say this from similar situation as you but I was 16. Much easier since I could legally work in restaurants (which is what I did). I have no idea how you would make it without the ability to work. I'm not saying that I want anyone to go through what I or you did. However it was blindingly clear to me even as a child that staying was equal to dying. I don't see how these people stay in these places having been there myself. Someone posted the average income at pine ridge is <$4k. You can work for minimum wage for almost a 400% increase in income by leaving.
    - Kye 4y ago
      Where are they going to go where they won't be at a severe disadvantage due to racism and lack of both money and connections?
      - therealdrag0 4y ago
        Yes they’d be at a disadvantage. Wouldn’t you still make that choice? Why would you voluntarily stay in a place so poor? Can it really get any worse?
      - selfmodruntime 4y ago
        Anywhere else. You make it sound like racism is bad enough to keep them unemployed
      - pvaldes 4y ago
        > Where are they going to go where they won't be at a severe disadvantage due to racism and lack of both money and connections? Mexico. This people needs the wisdom of a Mexican coacher. Thriving despite racism, lack of money and no friends in town, but with a golden, fully legal document of citizenship granting free pass, and speaking the same language as everybody else?. Yep, Challenge accepted
- trollied 4y ago
  I guess you don’t understand how things work outside of your circle. They’re not software engineers on ridiculous salaries. Lots of people live day to day, not knowing where their next meal is coming from, never mind prepping a huge stockpile for storm events, or being able to spend thousands moving elsewhere & being able to afford said move/rent elsewhere/get work etc. People’s biggest problems are mostly not how to pass a FAANG interview.
- Ericson2314 4y ago
  imagine a ghetto but instead of being in a major city like Venice it is 1000s of miles away from any real economic opportunity.
  - therealdrag0 4y ago
    Thousands of miles? Check a map.
daniel_reetz 4y ago
I grew up in North Dakota (where there are a number of reservations) and worked on a project in a First Nations village in Ontario. Comments here exhibit zero awareness of what crushing poverty (and reservation dynamics) can do to people. Or, for that matter, what enormous privilege and lucky circumstances can do to people.