12 ms·

The real story here seems to me to be not that people burned their clothes to stay warm but that people in a place with fragile connections to the outside world

The real story here seems to me to be not that people burned their clothes to stay warm but that people in a place with fragile connections to the outside world had so little in the way of supplies to weather a relatively short period without food deliveries. I'm not blaming them, I assume that many of the affected people don't have the resources to keep a buffer stock.

sillystuff 4y ago
They cannot afford to stockpile fuel. I listen to a podcast by a man who grew up on that reservation. While he was back visiting his grandmother, a propane truck was filling her tank. He told the driver, "Whoa! Stop! We can't afford that much!" The driver told him, "Don't worry, it's free. Venezuela is paying to fill everyone's tank." Those propane tanks are mostly empty unless Venezuela is paying (before Venezuelan oil revenues dropped, Venezuela provided free propane and heating oil to the desperately poor throughout the US [and many other countries]-- in solidarity. The illegal sanctions by the US and the US's illegal seizure of Venezuela's foreign assets, that have crippled the Venezuelan economy mean it is highly unlikely this Venezuelan program will return.) Edit: Corrected initial cause of the termination of Venezuela's heating fuel program-- per child comment by vorpalhex.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  It looks like that program was halted in 2009 due to oil prices increasing dramatically, not due to sanctions.
  - uoaei 4y ago
    You think there is no causal link between the two happenings?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- scruple 4y ago
  What's the name of the podcast? Sounds interesting.
  - sillystuff 4y ago
    "The Red Nation Podcast" by The Red Nation https://therednation.org/ https://therednation.org/ Many of their older episodes are very good, so IMO worth listening to back episodes. Recently (last couple years?) they merged the, "Red Power Hour" segments into the main podcast feed (it was a separate podcast). I skimmed several of these, but now just skip them-- they were things like (Hollywood) movie reviews and folks in conversation where I didn't feel I learned anything. So, don't discount the whole podcast if the first episode you listen to is one of these. The episodes hosted by Nick Estes are the ones I found the most informative (most of the early episodes fall into this category).
    - scruple 4y ago
      Thanks! I've been looking for a new podcast that I might learn something interesting from... And that's completely outside of my regular wheelhouse. Appreciate the reply!
- gabythenerd 4y ago
  Regarding the Venezuelan comment: In 2009 the country was also entering economic turmoil, and it never recovered. I couldn't find anything in English, but this wikipedia page also mentions that propane gas has been in shortage since 2014 domestically for Venezuelans (years before the first sanctions were established): https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escasez_de_combustible_en_Venezuela https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escasez_de_combustible_en_Ve.... PDVSA (government company responsible for gas and fuel extraction and processing) has been mismanaged for more than 20 years, the "free" propane was never going to last, and it was extensively used to gain political allies while it was given away. For those interested, there was a national strike in PDVSA against Hugo Chavez in 2003 that IMHO started the company demise, they fired pretty much anyone who knew how to run it: https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paro_general_en_Venezuela_de_2002-2003 https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paro_general_en_Venezuela_de...
lazyasciiart 4y ago
> the drifts of snow have rendered their wood stockpile inaccessible It mentions a family running out of baby formula. Baby formula is in short supply around the country and also very expensive - many stores won’t allow you to buy more than one or two cans at once and if you’re buying it with WIC funds then you can’t afford more than a month at a time anyway.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  > can’t afford more than a month at a time anyway. A month's worth would easily see them over the current weather problem.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  Tangentially related: why does the US have such a problem with supplies of formula milk?
  - lazyasciiart 4y ago
    A major supplier recall on top of all the pandemic related logistics issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_infant_formula_shortage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_infant_form...
llamaimperative 4y ago
The real story of every tragedy that hits a reservation is that they all sit downstream of a horrific, orchestrated genocide campaign intended to destroy these people’s history, culture, and knowledge of self-sufficiency. Put ‘em on the shittiest plots of land you can find, steal their children, ban them from speaking their languages and from passing their knowledge between generations, then we can sit and gawk at their 100% intentional and designed cultural death spiral. Not to say that indigenous life was some suffering-free utopia, but it’s worth remembering their plight is not some emergent accident.
- paultopia 4y ago
  This this this this this this this this. ZERO coincidence that this tragedy happens on a reservation.
- eternalban 4y ago
  I honestly wonder if the native Americans were (destined to be) screwed even before Europeans set foot in Americas. They were behind a formidable technology curve and I truly wonder would they have fared better if Japanese or Russian (or possibly even Chinese) colonists (the closest geographic candidate colonists) showed up. Consider it as a thought experiment - something that's been popping in my head lately: under what sort of ideal conditions would have the native civilizations and peoples of Americas been left unmolested by anyone? An entire continent left in isolation while the more technologically advanced societies reached the way station of 'universal human rights'? [typically don't mention downvotes but a difficult question does not merit it. If you so strongly disagree, discuss it.]
  - mynameishere 4y ago
    If migration from Europe (and I suppose Africa) hadn't been unrelenting, then the natives would have gradually built up a modern-ish, defendable civilization. Maybe. It would have required some centralization of government as well, to prevent the divide-and-conquer tactics used against them.
    - 4y ago
zdragnar 4y ago
From the article, the community has stockpiled resources, but their plows and skidsteers are all out of commission. They literally cannot get to the firewood, and every time they clear some snow out more blows in. Some people have been completely isolated in their homes for 8 days. I'd say most people, even in rural areas, don't have a supply that'll last longer than that, except for some hardcore preppers.
- nottorp 4y ago
  How's the winter in that area normally ? Because i've lived my first ~16 years of life in a home heated with firewood (and coal but it's irellevant now) and by the end of september all the fuel needed for 3 months of winter was neatly piled up within easy reach of the house. All you needed was to shovel like 20 meters of path and maybe a wheelbarrow. Why would you need something motorized to get to your firewood? Doesn't make sense unless they've never had heavy winters before.
  - jrochkind1 4y ago
    I don't know the details, but they are very very poor (Pine Ridge is often calculated to have the highest unemployment and lowest per capita income in the entire country; life expectancy is ~50 years), and I'm not sure how forrested the land is, it's mostly grassland/prairie. The OP article suggested that many people ordinarily use propane heat, which normally can be delivered just fine. I don't know enough to say why not firewood, but I'd guess expense and convenience. Aha, this other article mentions a firewood shortage, but doesn't say details: > In homes heated by firewood, there is another battle. Yellow Hair says there is a firewood shortage happening on the reservation, but communities are coming together to help one another. “Lending that helping hand, when they can and where they can,” said Yellow Hair. Keeping people warm is an issue across much of the Pine Ridge Reservation, with a firewood shortage and propane trucks jelling up from the cold. —https://www.blackhillsfox.com/2022/12/22/one-natural-phenomenon-after-another-people-pine-ridge-reservation-tackle-extreme-circumstances/ https://www.blackhillsfox.com/2022/12/22/one-natural-phenome... And here's an article about life in Pine Ridge generally: > Among the most impoverished of these reservations, Pine Ridge is plagued by an 80 to 90 percent unemployment rate with a median individual income of $4,000 a year, according to the Re-Member nonprofit organisation’s 2007 statistics. — https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2016/11/2/life-on-the-pine-ridge-native-american-reservation https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2016/11/2/life-on-the-pin...

sillystuff 4y ago

They cannot afford to stockpile fuel. I listen to a podcast by a man who grew up on that reservation. While he was back visiting his grandmother, a propane truck was filling her tank. He told the driver, "Whoa! Stop! We can't afford that much!" The driver told him, "Don't worry, it's free. Venezuela is paying to fill everyone's tank." Those propane tanks are mostly empty unless Venezuela is paying (before Venezuelan oil revenues dropped, Venezuela provided free propane and heating oil to the desperately poor throughout the US [and many other countries]-- in solidarity. The illegal sanctions by the US and the US's illegal seizure of Venezuela's foreign assets, that have crippled the Venezuelan economy mean it is highly unlikely this Venezuelan program will return.) Edit: Corrected initial cause of the termination of Venezuela's heating fuel program-- per child comment by vorpalhex.

vorpalhex 4y ago
It looks like that program was halted in 2009 due to oil prices increasing dramatically, not due to sanctions.
- uoaei 4y ago
  You think there is no causal link between the two happenings?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
scruple 4y ago
What's the name of the podcast? Sounds interesting.
- sillystuff 4y ago
  "The Red Nation Podcast" by The Red Nation https://therednation.org/ https://therednation.org/ Many of their older episodes are very good, so IMO worth listening to back episodes. Recently (last couple years?) they merged the, "Red Power Hour" segments into the main podcast feed (it was a separate podcast). I skimmed several of these, but now just skip them-- they were things like (Hollywood) movie reviews and folks in conversation where I didn't feel I learned anything. So, don't discount the whole podcast if the first episode you listen to is one of these. The episodes hosted by Nick Estes are the ones I found the most informative (most of the early episodes fall into this category).
  - scruple 4y ago
    Thanks! I've been looking for a new podcast that I might learn something interesting from... And that's completely outside of my regular wheelhouse. Appreciate the reply!
gabythenerd 4y ago
Regarding the Venezuelan comment: In 2009 the country was also entering economic turmoil, and it never recovered. I couldn't find anything in English, but this wikipedia page also mentions that propane gas has been in shortage since 2014 domestically for Venezuelans (years before the first sanctions were established): https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escasez_de_combustible_en_Venezuela https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escasez_de_combustible_en_Ve.... PDVSA (government company responsible for gas and fuel extraction and processing) has been mismanaged for more than 20 years, the "free" propane was never going to last, and it was extensively used to gain political allies while it was given away. For those interested, there was a national strike in PDVSA against Hugo Chavez in 2003 that IMHO started the company demise, they fired pretty much anyone who knew how to run it: https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paro_general_en_Venezuela_de_2002-2003 https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paro_general_en_Venezuela_de...

lazyasciiart 4y ago

> the drifts of snow have rendered their wood stockpile inaccessible It mentions a family running out of baby formula. Baby formula is in short supply around the country and also very expensive - many stores won’t allow you to buy more than one or two cans at once and if you’re buying it with WIC funds then you can’t afford more than a month at a time anyway.

kwhitefoot 4y ago
> can’t afford more than a month at a time anyway. A month's worth would easily see them over the current weather problem.
kwhitefoot 4y ago
Tangentially related: why does the US have such a problem with supplies of formula milk?
- lazyasciiart 4y ago
  A major supplier recall on top of all the pandemic related logistics issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_infant_formula_shortage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_infant_form...

llamaimperative 4y ago

The real story of every tragedy that hits a reservation is that they all sit downstream of a horrific, orchestrated genocide campaign intended to destroy these people’s history, culture, and knowledge of self-sufficiency. Put ‘em on the shittiest plots of land you can find, steal their children, ban them from speaking their languages and from passing their knowledge between generations, then we can sit and gawk at their 100% intentional and designed cultural death spiral. Not to say that indigenous life was some suffering-free utopia, but it’s worth remembering their plight is not some emergent accident.

paultopia 4y ago
This this this this this this this this. ZERO coincidence that this tragedy happens on a reservation.
eternalban 4y ago
I honestly wonder if the native Americans were (destined to be) screwed even before Europeans set foot in Americas. They were behind a formidable technology curve and I truly wonder would they have fared better if Japanese or Russian (or possibly even Chinese) colonists (the closest geographic candidate colonists) showed up. Consider it as a thought experiment - something that's been popping in my head lately: under what sort of ideal conditions would have the native civilizations and peoples of Americas been left unmolested by anyone? An entire continent left in isolation while the more technologically advanced societies reached the way station of 'universal human rights'? [typically don't mention downvotes but a difficult question does not merit it. If you so strongly disagree, discuss it.]
- mynameishere 4y ago
  If migration from Europe (and I suppose Africa) hadn't been unrelenting, then the natives would have gradually built up a modern-ish, defendable civilization. Maybe. It would have required some centralization of government as well, to prevent the divide-and-conquer tactics used against them.
  - 4y ago

zdragnar 4y ago

From the article, the community has stockpiled resources, but their plows and skidsteers are all out of commission. They literally cannot get to the firewood, and every time they clear some snow out more blows in. Some people have been completely isolated in their homes for 8 days. I'd say most people, even in rural areas, don't have a supply that'll last longer than that, except for some hardcore preppers.

nottorp 4y ago
How's the winter in that area normally ? Because i've lived my first ~16 years of life in a home heated with firewood (and coal but it's irellevant now) and by the end of september all the fuel needed for 3 months of winter was neatly piled up within easy reach of the house. All you needed was to shovel like 20 meters of path and maybe a wheelbarrow. Why would you need something motorized to get to your firewood? Doesn't make sense unless they've never had heavy winters before.
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  I don't know the details, but they are very very poor (Pine Ridge is often calculated to have the highest unemployment and lowest per capita income in the entire country; life expectancy is ~50 years), and I'm not sure how forrested the land is, it's mostly grassland/prairie. The OP article suggested that many people ordinarily use propane heat, which normally can be delivered just fine. I don't know enough to say why not firewood, but I'd guess expense and convenience. Aha, this other article mentions a firewood shortage, but doesn't say details: > In homes heated by firewood, there is another battle. Yellow Hair says there is a firewood shortage happening on the reservation, but communities are coming together to help one another. “Lending that helping hand, when they can and where they can,” said Yellow Hair. Keeping people warm is an issue across much of the Pine Ridge Reservation, with a firewood shortage and propane trucks jelling up from the cold. —https://www.blackhillsfox.com/2022/12/22/one-natural-phenomenon-after-another-people-pine-ridge-reservation-tackle-extreme-circumstances/ https://www.blackhillsfox.com/2022/12/22/one-natural-phenome... And here's an article about life in Pine Ridge generally: > Among the most impoverished of these reservations, Pine Ridge is plagued by an 80 to 90 percent unemployment rate with a median individual income of $4,000 a year, according to the Re-Member nonprofit organisation’s 2007 statistics. — https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2016/11/2/life-on-the-pine-ridge-native-american-reservation https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2016/11/2/life-on-the-pin...