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> Toyota is regretting wasting the past 30 years foregoing battery research That's true. But EVs have a massive infrastructure problem in developing countries

> Toyota is regretting wasting the past 30 years foregoing battery research That's true. But EVs have a massive infrastructure problem in developing countries which won't be fixed anytime soon or even ever, and somebody has to make cars for them as well.

Reason077 4y ago
> ”EVs have a massive infrastructure problem in developing countries which won't be fixed anytime soon or even ever” Thailand has just gone from near-zero charging infrastructure to nationwide fast charging networks and being the leading country in South-east Asia for EV sales, in about 2 years. It doesn’t take long to turn things around once the right policies and incentives are in place.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
sn0wf1re 4y ago
I've never understood the infrastructure argument for Hydrogen vs Battery. Electricity is ubiquitous in many places in the world and can be made in situ. One can argue that there will need to be a lot of infrastructure upgrades for the power demand, but that is needed for the slightly less efficient hydrogen electrolysis as well. I see developing countries continue to do what they have already been doing; using smaller, more efficient vehicles including bikes (both motorized and non), and shared transport methods.
phpisthebest 4y ago
If you saw any of the video's where many of the EV Chargers across the US broke (including a few of the famously reliable Tesla's) due to winter cold I think it is more than just a problem for developing nations. Charging networks in the US need ALOT of work, and it appears the stations can not even properly report there outages as there are countless stories of charging spots being reported by the apps as operational only for the EV driver to find them unusable on arrival. BEV's have a long way to go to build trust with cold weather drivers, and for me this winter has removed any desire I had to buy a BEV in the coming year.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lazide 4y ago
Still easier to fix using charging stations than hydrogen though :s
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  When you’re behind, it’s easier to sling mud then catch up, especially when you’re a conservative multinational without recent experience swinging for the fences (to give credit due, Toyota’s hybrid synergy drive was the result of their fear of US emissions standards decades ago). Tesla spent $1B on their global Supercharger network. Does Toyota not have $1B to invest? Their market cap is $226B, so clearly this isn’t the case. Get building y’all. You just need a charger team to identify locations, coordinate plans and permits with the local AHJ (authority having jurisdiction), and to engage local electrical contractors to receive the equipment and install. Every Toyota dealer is a possible location to operate a charger installer team out of if so desired (for residential and level 2 requirements). (Tangentially, make sure your fast DC chargers actually work in the cold: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq0RAjJ1PKQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq0RAjJ1PKQ ["Kyle finds out that the new Electrify America chargers that they co-developed with BTC don't work in cold temperatures. He also heads to ChargePoint, EVgo, and other EA chargers to see if they have similar issues in this cold snap."]) Norway’s ban on new combustion vehicle sales goes into effect in 2025; registration data shows they’re almost at 100% EV and hybrid sales (with hybrids making up less than 10% of new car sales), and their mobility story hasn’t come to a grinding halt. The evidence is overwhelming that challenges raised (cold weather, charging infra) can be solved for with time and resources. https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34069028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34069028
  - lazide 4y ago
    That would require someone admitting a bad decision from a position where that is not only not going to go well, but from which they may defacto not be able to do so. Which is the big problem with top down, ‘lifetime job’ type environments - or authoritarian ones. Thought sometimes they can be flexible, ironically, by blaming ‘the other’ or similar tricks.
notacoward 4y ago
BEVs have a pretty massive infrastructure problem even in developed countries. Many people live in apartment buildings where you can't just use your own dedicated level-2 charger every night, or in places where the electrical grid just isn't up to providing enough shared ones. I think a (second) paradigm shift is still necessary, but hydrogen is the least likely alternative. Ammonia-based hybrids and especially swappable battery systems both loom larger in my mind, at least.
- api 4y ago
  That’s literally a last several meters problem. It can trivially be fixed with a tax incentive for landlords to install chargers. Even installing simple wall plugs would be helpful since most EVs come with those chargers or they can be easily purchased. We have an EV that we trickle charge in our garage and that’s usually enough. For hydrogen you have to do much more significant build out. Apartments already have grid connections.
  - prottog 4y ago
    > That’s literally a last several meters problem. It can trivially be fixed with a tax incentive for landlords to install chargers. It's not just that. The grid is nowhere up to what is needed to support the majority of vehicles being EVs; take a look at this study[0] done by National Grid in New England, which shows the problem clearly. "Already have grid connections" is not enough for electrified long-distance travel or cargo-hauling, simply due to the amount of power required that far exceeds current capabilities. [0]: https://www.nationalgrid.com/us/EVhighway https://www.nationalgrid.com/us/EVhighway
    - api 4y ago
      That’s still an easier problem than gigantic amounts of heavy piping or compressed gas transport everywhere. Wires are just cheaper and lower maintenance. They are also more general purpose. Improving the grid will improve its robustness generally.
      - 4y ago
api 4y ago
Hydrogen has an even larger infrastructure problem and grid wiring is easier to deploy than pipelines or compressed gas supply chains. I only see a big future for hydrogen in grid scale energy storage if it can be made competitive with batteries. It has the advantage of requiring less manufactured mass and costly materials to store more energy and perhaps would be better able to warehouse energy long term. You could reuse at least some of the natural gas storage and power generation infrastructure, probably with some upgrades to deal with hydrogen or a hydrogen / methane mix.
- Reason077 4y ago
  Green hydrogen is very important if we want to decarbonise many industrial processes that currently depend heavily on fossil fuels, like steel making. It doesn’t make a lot of sense as a general-purpose transport fuel, however, in a world where cheaper and more efficient battery EVs already exist.
sdiacom 4y ago
Historically (before China's manufacturing boom) it was used cars that made their way to developing countries, and the infrastructure was built for those cars. Which is to say, nobody made cars for them, but cars made their way there, and they still developed the infrastructure to support them. A solution to the problem will likely be found once there is a problem to be solved.
- Reason077 4y ago
  Still true for much of the developing world: large quantities of vehicles from the UK and Europe end up being exported to African countries, for example. Once there are sufficient volumes of cheap used EVs being exported to Africa, the infrastructure will naturally emerge to support them.

Reason077 4y ago

> ”EVs have a massive infrastructure problem in developing countries which won't be fixed anytime soon or even ever” Thailand has just gone from near-zero charging infrastructure to nationwide fast charging networks and being the leading country in South-east Asia for EV sales, in about 2 years. It doesn’t take long to turn things around once the right policies and incentives are in place.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

sn0wf1re 4y ago

I've never understood the infrastructure argument for Hydrogen vs Battery. Electricity is ubiquitous in many places in the world and can be made in situ. One can argue that there will need to be a lot of infrastructure upgrades for the power demand, but that is needed for the slightly less efficient hydrogen electrolysis as well. I see developing countries continue to do what they have already been doing; using smaller, more efficient vehicles including bikes (both motorized and non), and shared transport methods.

phpisthebest 4y ago

If you saw any of the video's where many of the EV Chargers across the US broke (including a few of the famously reliable Tesla's) due to winter cold I think it is more than just a problem for developing nations. Charging networks in the US need ALOT of work, and it appears the stations can not even properly report there outages as there are countless stories of charging spots being reported by the apps as operational only for the EV driver to find them unusable on arrival. BEV's have a long way to go to build trust with cold weather drivers, and for me this winter has removed any desire I had to buy a BEV in the coming year.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

lazide 4y ago

Still easier to fix using charging stations than hydrogen though :s

toomuchtodo 4y ago
When you’re behind, it’s easier to sling mud then catch up, especially when you’re a conservative multinational without recent experience swinging for the fences (to give credit due, Toyota’s hybrid synergy drive was the result of their fear of US emissions standards decades ago). Tesla spent $1B on their global Supercharger network. Does Toyota not have $1B to invest? Their market cap is $226B, so clearly this isn’t the case. Get building y’all. You just need a charger team to identify locations, coordinate plans and permits with the local AHJ (authority having jurisdiction), and to engage local electrical contractors to receive the equipment and install. Every Toyota dealer is a possible location to operate a charger installer team out of if so desired (for residential and level 2 requirements). (Tangentially, make sure your fast DC chargers actually work in the cold: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq0RAjJ1PKQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq0RAjJ1PKQ ["Kyle finds out that the new Electrify America chargers that they co-developed with BTC don't work in cold temperatures. He also heads to ChargePoint, EVgo, and other EA chargers to see if they have similar issues in this cold snap."]) Norway’s ban on new combustion vehicle sales goes into effect in 2025; registration data shows they’re almost at 100% EV and hybrid sales (with hybrids making up less than 10% of new car sales), and their mobility story hasn’t come to a grinding halt. The evidence is overwhelming that challenges raised (cold weather, charging infra) can be solved for with time and resources. https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34069028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34069028
- lazide 4y ago
  That would require someone admitting a bad decision from a position where that is not only not going to go well, but from which they may defacto not be able to do so. Which is the big problem with top down, ‘lifetime job’ type environments - or authoritarian ones. Thought sometimes they can be flexible, ironically, by blaming ‘the other’ or similar tricks.

notacoward 4y ago

BEVs have a pretty massive infrastructure problem even in developed countries. Many people live in apartment buildings where you can't just use your own dedicated level-2 charger every night, or in places where the electrical grid just isn't up to providing enough shared ones. I think a (second) paradigm shift is still necessary, but hydrogen is the least likely alternative. Ammonia-based hybrids and especially swappable battery systems both loom larger in my mind, at least.

api 4y ago
That’s literally a last several meters problem. It can trivially be fixed with a tax incentive for landlords to install chargers. Even installing simple wall plugs would be helpful since most EVs come with those chargers or they can be easily purchased. We have an EV that we trickle charge in our garage and that’s usually enough. For hydrogen you have to do much more significant build out. Apartments already have grid connections.
- prottog 4y ago
  > That’s literally a last several meters problem. It can trivially be fixed with a tax incentive for landlords to install chargers. It's not just that. The grid is nowhere up to what is needed to support the majority of vehicles being EVs; take a look at this study[0] done by National Grid in New England, which shows the problem clearly. "Already have grid connections" is not enough for electrified long-distance travel or cargo-hauling, simply due to the amount of power required that far exceeds current capabilities. [0]: https://www.nationalgrid.com/us/EVhighway https://www.nationalgrid.com/us/EVhighway
  - api 4y ago
    That’s still an easier problem than gigantic amounts of heavy piping or compressed gas transport everywhere. Wires are just cheaper and lower maintenance. They are also more general purpose. Improving the grid will improve its robustness generally.
    - 4y ago

api 4y ago

Hydrogen has an even larger infrastructure problem and grid wiring is easier to deploy than pipelines or compressed gas supply chains. I only see a big future for hydrogen in grid scale energy storage if it can be made competitive with batteries. It has the advantage of requiring less manufactured mass and costly materials to store more energy and perhaps would be better able to warehouse energy long term. You could reuse at least some of the natural gas storage and power generation infrastructure, probably with some upgrades to deal with hydrogen or a hydrogen / methane mix.

Reason077 4y ago
Green hydrogen is very important if we want to decarbonise many industrial processes that currently depend heavily on fossil fuels, like steel making. It doesn’t make a lot of sense as a general-purpose transport fuel, however, in a world where cheaper and more efficient battery EVs already exist.

sdiacom 4y ago

Historically (before China's manufacturing boom) it was used cars that made their way to developing countries, and the infrastructure was built for those cars. Which is to say, nobody made cars for them, but cars made their way there, and they still developed the infrastructure to support them. A solution to the problem will likely be found once there is a problem to be solved.

Reason077 4y ago
Still true for much of the developing world: large quantities of vehicles from the UK and Europe end up being exported to African countries, for example. Once there are sufficient volumes of cheap used EVs being exported to Africa, the infrastructure will naturally emerge to support them.