5 ms·

Someone please explain. There are a lot of people who hate on Zig in this thread and say "why not Rust". Then someone comes in and says "Hey, I like C" and gets

Someone please explain. There are a lot of people who hate on Zig in this thread and say "why not Rust". Then someone comes in and says "Hey, I like C" and gets summarily attacked for that opinion. But it's the same in Rust threads, too. Someone always comes in and says "Ugh, not another Rust thread". And it's been getting worse. It's to the point where I usually don't even bother reading the comments on programming language specific submissions anymore. It's highly predictable and it's quite tiring to read. Everyone who does that is saying "My language is better than yours", and in the same breath criticizing someone else for thinking that, in fact, their language is better. When we all know neither is. It's different tradeoffs, different concepts from different times perhaps, or just different goals. So what if someone wants to use Zig for their native Ruby modules? So what if someone wants to write their Python extension in Rust? So what if someone doesn't mind D's GC? Instead of immediately attacking them for their choice of language, or excusing it by saying "Those people can't be helped", maybe we can listen instead. Saying someone's a lost cause is never nice. And maybe you'll realize that you have a bias too. And that people might disagree with it. We'll get nowhere if we just scoff at everybody. There are good projects made in all kinds of different programming languages, and nobody is lesser for choosing a different one than you'd want them to. Instead of a nice discussion about native ruby modules or addons and a healthy discussion about doing that in Zig, or Rust, or C, or Crystal, or whatever, it's just about the languages themselves again and how people are wrong for using them.

still_grokking 4y ago
Sorry, but hard no. Not everything in life is relative. There are objectively better programming languages than others. Like there are objectively better vehicles than others… The blind Rust fanboyism reached crazy levels by now; and Zig isn't a bad language. (It's actually even quite nice for what it is). But there are very valid rational reasons to prefer one over the other. Zig is a new language that repeats 50 year old mistakes. That's a very valid reason to criticize it. No memory safety is a big NO in the year 2022! Over 70% of all software malfunctions—and what's even more important, almost 100% of all severe security issues—are a direct result of missing memory safety. Even this one prominent stubborn and arrogant C dude realized that memory safety is an absolute requirement for a new language. That's saying a lot! Still I recommend Zig to C die-hards. Because it's a slight improvement, and those folks will stick to C anyway otherwise. But anybody who isn't married to C, and is still mentally flexible enough, should look for a better language instead. As there are not much C contenders, especially safe and modern ones, the most valid choice right now in that field is Rust. Love it or hate it. It's like that. (And this does not change even in the light of the fact that Rust is currently overpraised by a large margin, and for a lot of "rewrite it in Rust" projects just using a GC language would be a more sane approach. Also there a niches where C can't be replaced by anything for the time being. But that are quite small niches, and they will likely become even smaller over time).
weatherlite 4y ago
> Someone please explain I think you know the answer. We can be a selfish and narcissistic creature and we often show our worst side on the internet since there are no repercussions. It's not as bad on HN but its definitely there.
greenpeas 4y ago
My language brings all the devs to the yard And they’re like, it’s better than yours Damn right, it’s better than yours I can teach you, but I have to charge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVQEbD3NyDw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVQEbD3NyDw
- KronisLV 4y ago
  > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVQEbD3NyDw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVQEbD3NyDw Hah, this sounds like it fits in the Nerdcore genre. Might need to go and listen to something by MC Frontalot because of nostalgia now. I've also heard some humorous tech songs by Dylan Beattie in the past (though his conference talks are even better). Edit: As for the languages, it seems like there's still a lot of elitism, gatekeeping and bikeshedding going on, which was something that was spoken of in DevTernity 2022 as well (in addition to coupling in codebases and architecture being a big theme this year). Sure, sometimes one language might be superior to another, but for most purposes many of the popular (or even niche) languages can be good investments and just generally good enough.
  - therein 4y ago
    > KILL DASH NINE > No more CPU time > I run KILL DASH NINE > And your process is mine Reminds me of this.
ksec 4y ago
>But it's the same in Rust threads, too. Not really. Those are very rare and only happens when someone asking for alternative or make claims that something only Rust can do. >And say "why not Rust". The unwritten rule of HN: You do not question or criticise The Rusted Holy Grail and the Riscy Silver Bullet.
- Ygg2 4y ago
  > You do not question or criticise The Rusted Holy Grail and the Riscy Silver Bullet. You forgot the Holy D Cup. In other words don't be asshole to other people, unless you want them to stir drama. And if you are, make sure you have some decent ammo to back those claims.
hawski 4y ago
When someone defends use of Electron they usually say it helps productivity so much, that the application would not be created if it would have to be done with a more conservative technology stack. I like to write my personal projects using C. I feel that I wouldn't have motivation to work on them if I would use Rust. I do see many shortcomings of C, I see a lot of advantages of Rust. It is always a game of trade offs. Safety/correctness, speed of development, performance of applications. It all depends on many factors, familiarity being one of them. Lately I am thinking if it is possible to write in a subset of Rust, that would essentially be C-with-Borrow-Checker. Not using most of stdlib and very limited set of libraries. I also look at all those Better-C languages and do hope for their maturity: Zig, Odin, Hare etc.
- still_grokking 4y ago
  > It is always a game of trade offs. Safety/correctness, speed of development, […] Where's the trade-off? If the result is buggy crap and/or a security nightmare it makes no difference whether it was "fast to develop". Saying something like that is like saying that you could build houses much faster if you just didn't have to follow any safety regulations. If you would try that in the real world you would end up in jail sooner or later. But in the virtual world of software people really seem to think that such an "argument" is valid. I'm eagerly looking forward to the EU finally (and hopefully soon!) removing the liability exceptions that are still in place for software. It's in the working. Than software products would fall under the same liability laws than any other products, and vendors going to be finally full responsible for what they ship to customers. The whole "I don't care about safety and correctness because there are no consequences" madness would come to a very abrupt end in case vendors would be liable and could end up in court easy for shipping subpar products that were manufactured not adhering to state of the art practices. > […] performance of applications. Rust and C are the same in this regard. So no "trade-offs" here.
- pitaj 4y ago
  Have you learned Rust or used it for any significant project? In my opinion: - Rust is more productive than C - Rust is easier than C, once you get past the initial bump And it's not my opinion, it's just fact that Rust has practically the same performance as C. I say this as someone who is currently actively maintaining embedded firmware with 10,000+ lines of C. It will be my last significant C project.
newbieuser 4y ago
i think the worst case of this is in the javascript ecosystem. i'm really sick of seeing open source groups arguing with each other on internet.
the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
Different maturity. Rust got similar comments when the first people started using it. I think Zig also gets some criticism because it rejects the idea that memory safety is important and worth protecting against on the language level.
- junon 4y ago
  I reject zig because its maintainer has a maturity problem when dealing with critics. That's all I'll say about it. Bring on the downvotes, but I don't trust the security of the language whatsoever.
Ygg2 4y ago
First off, you're judging group by the loudest/most obnoxious member. Plus this feeds into your existing biases. You didn't note same tone coming from members of D community. Second. Regarding using C, how would you react if someone told you: "I prefer driving cars with seatbelts and airbags removed. I like the speed you get from the reduced mass." Me, I'm not gonna try to convince you. I just don't want to drive with you. Third people like their tribes. Insulting some language is bound to cause some members of said languages to retort. See discussion about D and Rust.

still_grokking 4y ago

Sorry, but hard no. Not everything in life is relative. There are objectively better programming languages than others. Like there are objectively better vehicles than others… The blind Rust fanboyism reached crazy levels by now; and Zig isn't a bad language. (It's actually even quite nice for what it is). But there are very valid rational reasons to prefer one over the other. Zig is a new language that repeats 50 year old mistakes. That's a very valid reason to criticize it. No memory safety is a big NO in the year 2022! Over 70% of all software malfunctions—and what's even more important, almost 100% of all severe security issues—are a direct result of missing memory safety. Even this one prominent stubborn and arrogant C dude realized that memory safety is an absolute requirement for a new language. That's saying a lot! Still I recommend Zig to C die-hards. Because it's a slight improvement, and those folks will stick to C anyway otherwise. But anybody who isn't married to C, and is still mentally flexible enough, should look for a better language instead. As there are not much C contenders, especially safe and modern ones, the most valid choice right now in that field is Rust. Love it or hate it. It's like that. (And this does not change even in the light of the fact that Rust is currently overpraised by a large margin, and for a lot of "rewrite it in Rust" projects just using a GC language would be a more sane approach. Also there a niches where C can't be replaced by anything for the time being. But that are quite small niches, and they will likely become even smaller over time).

weatherlite 4y ago

> Someone please explain I think you know the answer. We can be a selfish and narcissistic creature and we often show our worst side on the internet since there are no repercussions. It's not as bad on HN but its definitely there.

greenpeas 4y ago

My language brings all the devs to the yard And they’re like, it’s better than yours Damn right, it’s better than yours I can teach you, but I have to charge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVQEbD3NyDw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVQEbD3NyDw

KronisLV 4y ago
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVQEbD3NyDw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVQEbD3NyDw Hah, this sounds like it fits in the Nerdcore genre. Might need to go and listen to something by MC Frontalot because of nostalgia now. I've also heard some humorous tech songs by Dylan Beattie in the past (though his conference talks are even better). Edit: As for the languages, it seems like there's still a lot of elitism, gatekeeping and bikeshedding going on, which was something that was spoken of in DevTernity 2022 as well (in addition to coupling in codebases and architecture being a big theme this year). Sure, sometimes one language might be superior to another, but for most purposes many of the popular (or even niche) languages can be good investments and just generally good enough.
- therein 4y ago
  > KILL DASH NINE > No more CPU time > I run KILL DASH NINE > And your process is mine Reminds me of this.

ksec 4y ago

>But it's the same in Rust threads, too. Not really. Those are very rare and only happens when someone asking for alternative or make claims that something only Rust can do. >And say "why not Rust". The unwritten rule of HN: You do not question or criticise The Rusted Holy Grail and the Riscy Silver Bullet.

Ygg2 4y ago
> You do not question or criticise The Rusted Holy Grail and the Riscy Silver Bullet. You forgot the Holy D Cup. In other words don't be asshole to other people, unless you want them to stir drama. And if you are, make sure you have some decent ammo to back those claims.

hawski 4y ago

When someone defends use of Electron they usually say it helps productivity so much, that the application would not be created if it would have to be done with a more conservative technology stack. I like to write my personal projects using C. I feel that I wouldn't have motivation to work on them if I would use Rust. I do see many shortcomings of C, I see a lot of advantages of Rust. It is always a game of trade offs. Safety/correctness, speed of development, performance of applications. It all depends on many factors, familiarity being one of them. Lately I am thinking if it is possible to write in a subset of Rust, that would essentially be C-with-Borrow-Checker. Not using most of stdlib and very limited set of libraries. I also look at all those Better-C languages and do hope for their maturity: Zig, Odin, Hare etc.

still_grokking 4y ago
> It is always a game of trade offs. Safety/correctness, speed of development, […] Where's the trade-off? If the result is buggy crap and/or a security nightmare it makes no difference whether it was "fast to develop". Saying something like that is like saying that you could build houses much faster if you just didn't have to follow any safety regulations. If you would try that in the real world you would end up in jail sooner or later. But in the virtual world of software people really seem to think that such an "argument" is valid. I'm eagerly looking forward to the EU finally (and hopefully soon!) removing the liability exceptions that are still in place for software. It's in the working. Than software products would fall under the same liability laws than any other products, and vendors going to be finally full responsible for what they ship to customers. The whole "I don't care about safety and correctness because there are no consequences" madness would come to a very abrupt end in case vendors would be liable and could end up in court easy for shipping subpar products that were manufactured not adhering to state of the art practices. > […] performance of applications. Rust and C are the same in this regard. So no "trade-offs" here.
pitaj 4y ago
Have you learned Rust or used it for any significant project? In my opinion: - Rust is more productive than C - Rust is easier than C, once you get past the initial bump And it's not my opinion, it's just fact that Rust has practically the same performance as C. I say this as someone who is currently actively maintaining embedded firmware with 10,000+ lines of C. It will be my last significant C project.

newbieuser 4y ago

i think the worst case of this is in the javascript ecosystem. i'm really sick of seeing open source groups arguing with each other on internet.

the_mitsuhiko 4y ago

Different maturity. Rust got similar comments when the first people started using it. I think Zig also gets some criticism because it rejects the idea that memory safety is important and worth protecting against on the language level.

junon 4y ago
I reject zig because its maintainer has a maturity problem when dealing with critics. That's all I'll say about it. Bring on the downvotes, but I don't trust the security of the language whatsoever.

Ygg2 4y ago

First off, you're judging group by the loudest/most obnoxious member. Plus this feeds into your existing biases. You didn't note same tone coming from members of D community. Second. Regarding using C, how would you react if someone told you: "I prefer driving cars with seatbelts and airbags removed. I like the speed you get from the reduced mass." Me, I'm not gonna try to convince you. I just don't want to drive with you. Third people like their tribes. Insulting some language is bound to cause some members of said languages to retort. See discussion about D and Rust.