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> But did it ever occur to you that they're unpopular because we're not allowed to speak our minds fully and rationally convince others of our ideas' merits? N

> But did it ever occur to you that they're unpopular because we're not allowed to speak our minds fully and rationally convince others of our ideas' merits? Notwithstanding my ignorance of the particular unpopular opinion you hold, did it ever occur to you that no matter how fully you express your mind, and no matter how rationally you believe your points, the popular resistance to your unpopular ideas may simply be proof that they do not have merit? If history shows us anything it’s that intelligent people can become convinced by unintelligent ideas.

concordDance 4y ago
Given the number of unusual beliefs we have today (e.g. equality, areligiosity), popularity seems like a very bad proxy for truth.
- yawpitch 4y ago
  Those are, indeed, historically unusual beliefs… though the rise in their popularity being directly coincident with the spread of more-than-minimal literacy and the slow degradation of traditional and institutional obstacles to higher education does imply that inequality and religiosity are even worse proxies for “truth”.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
matt-attack 4y ago
Sheesh it entirely works both ways. 70 years ago most didn’t want to hear about equal rights for homosexuals. But after 70 years of discussion, celebrity, pop culture, expiration of the issue, society has basically done a 180. The Majority is very often simply wrong. In fact is, look at all progressive movements (those that you’d have to be pretty insane to dispute today). They all began with the majority opposing them. Women’s suffrage, civil rights, homosexual rights, etc. Each of the movements responsible for those achievements went directly against the grain. You were crazy to side with any of those at certain dates in the past. The most fascinating part is to think which movements haven’t occurred yet. Which topics are we all collectively wrong about. Whatever they are it’s the first amendment that will enable them to be rectified. I have many ideas what these will turn out to be, but that’s another topic.
ablob 4y ago
History has also shown us, that it doesn't matter how many people say you're wrong, you could be right. In fact, this is usually how major progress was made in science. The whole "popular opinion" game is very one-sided from the start, especially in a setting where only a few people have immediate access to reach others like today. I've seen popular, but ultimately wrong, news travel around and solidify often enough to conclude, at least for myself, that "resistance to your unpopular ideas" is not sufficient to make any statement about its quality.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  Do you think the flat earthers might be proved right some day?
  - djbebs 4y ago
    Given the information currently available, probably not, but that doesn't mean they should be silenced.
    - hotpotamus 4y ago
      Does that mean their speech should be considered equally authoritative as those whose model of the earth's shape you prefer?
      - imtringued 4y ago
        The entire point is that popularity is not a relevant factor in this decision. After all both opinions are or were popular so which one are we supposed to pick among the popular options?
    - yawpitch 4y ago
      Given all information that has ever been observable, absolutely not… and while that doesn’t mean they should be silenced, it absolutely means they shouldn’t be allowed to present their idiot ideas as facts, absent opposition and loud disclaim. People are free to hold stupid ideas, and they’re free to state those ideas in public, and the rest of us are free to jeer them for doing so… freedom of speech does not imply freedom from being laughed at and abused for holding on to such manifestly stupid ideas.
imtringued 4y ago
>the popular resistance to your unpopular ideas may simply be proof that they do not have merit? No matter how many people believe the earth is flat or the sun circles around the earth, it won't make it true. We have day and night cycles because earth is a sphere that is rotating so that only one side of earth is exposed at the same time. No matter how unpopular this opinion is and no matter how big the mob's desire to lynch me is, it is still closer to the truth than the potentially popular opinion of earth being flat and the sun circling around the planet.
- yawpitch 4y ago
  In all the thousands of years of recorded human history there has never been a time where you could find enough people who actually believe the Earth is flat to fill a room sufficiently large to constitute “popular” opinion. That is, not until after the advent of the Internet and YouTube… both of which, ironically, depend on the Earth being non-flat to function.

concordDance 4y ago

Given the number of unusual beliefs we have today (e.g. equality, areligiosity), popularity seems like a very bad proxy for truth.

yawpitch 4y ago
Those are, indeed, historically unusual beliefs… though the rise in their popularity being directly coincident with the spread of more-than-minimal literacy and the slow degradation of traditional and institutional obstacles to higher education does imply that inequality and religiosity are even worse proxies for “truth”.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

matt-attack 4y ago

Sheesh it entirely works both ways. 70 years ago most didn’t want to hear about equal rights for homosexuals. But after 70 years of discussion, celebrity, pop culture, expiration of the issue, society has basically done a 180. The Majority is very often simply wrong. In fact is, look at all progressive movements (those that you’d have to be pretty insane to dispute today). They all began with the majority opposing them. Women’s suffrage, civil rights, homosexual rights, etc. Each of the movements responsible for those achievements went directly against the grain. You were crazy to side with any of those at certain dates in the past. The most fascinating part is to think which movements haven’t occurred yet. Which topics are we all collectively wrong about. Whatever they are it’s the first amendment that will enable them to be rectified. I have many ideas what these will turn out to be, but that’s another topic.

ablob 4y ago

History has also shown us, that it doesn't matter how many people say you're wrong, you could be right. In fact, this is usually how major progress was made in science. The whole "popular opinion" game is very one-sided from the start, especially in a setting where only a few people have immediate access to reach others like today. I've seen popular, but ultimately wrong, news travel around and solidify often enough to conclude, at least for myself, that "resistance to your unpopular ideas" is not sufficient to make any statement about its quality.

hotpotamus 4y ago
Do you think the flat earthers might be proved right some day?
- djbebs 4y ago
  Given the information currently available, probably not, but that doesn't mean they should be silenced.
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    Does that mean their speech should be considered equally authoritative as those whose model of the earth's shape you prefer?
    - imtringued 4y ago
      The entire point is that popularity is not a relevant factor in this decision. After all both opinions are or were popular so which one are we supposed to pick among the popular options?
  - yawpitch 4y ago
    Given all information that has ever been observable, absolutely not… and while that doesn’t mean they should be silenced, it absolutely means they shouldn’t be allowed to present their idiot ideas as facts, absent opposition and loud disclaim. People are free to hold stupid ideas, and they’re free to state those ideas in public, and the rest of us are free to jeer them for doing so… freedom of speech does not imply freedom from being laughed at and abused for holding on to such manifestly stupid ideas.

imtringued 4y ago

>the popular resistance to your unpopular ideas may simply be proof that they do not have merit? No matter how many people believe the earth is flat or the sun circles around the earth, it won't make it true. We have day and night cycles because earth is a sphere that is rotating so that only one side of earth is exposed at the same time. No matter how unpopular this opinion is and no matter how big the mob's desire to lynch me is, it is still closer to the truth than the potentially popular opinion of earth being flat and the sun circling around the planet.

yawpitch 4y ago
In all the thousands of years of recorded human history there has never been a time where you could find enough people who actually believe the Earth is flat to fill a room sufficiently large to constitute “popular” opinion. That is, not until after the advent of the Internet and YouTube… both of which, ironically, depend on the Earth being non-flat to function.