4 ms·

Chinese reclamations are absurd, they want economic exclusive zone even in front of Malaysia, ~1500kms from their shores, it's basicslly a call for war. https:

Chinese reclamations are absurd, they want economic exclusive zone even in front of Malaysia, ~1500kms from their shores, it's basicslly a call for war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File%3AMap_of_territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea.webp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File%3AMap_of_territorial_disp...

elashri 4y ago
Not something that is new. Absurd claims are something that even a European country can do like Greece interpretation of exclusive economic zone [1]. Not to say that this ia justification for China. Just to say that this is something happens with less outrage at different places. [1] https://cdn.cosmosphilly.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Exclusive-Economic-Zone-2-815x544.jpg https://cdn.cosmosphilly.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2020/01...
- dirtyid 4y ago
  Not to mention these are originally ROC / Taiwanese claims passed down to PRC when UN recognition formally switched, i.e. technically PRC didn't make these claims, but doing the geopolitically responsible / prudent thing of protecting them. Claims which btw predates other parties in the region, or UNCLOS formation, who does not rule on soverignty which makes PRC historic claims absurd and but also as legally valid as any other claims at UN (which does not recognize PCA "ruling" / kangaroo court).
- largepeepee 4y ago
  It's not even limited to Europe or China. The US lays claims to many deserted islands in the middle of nowhere in the Pacific for their HUGE EEZs and bird poop. No one dares contest the most well-armed navy on those though...or else.
- albertopv 4y ago
  Not every claim is the same. You can't really compare China to Greece, China is a nuclear power, millions of soldiers, she already showed not fearing using force.
  - largepeepee 4y ago
    You are basing it on military power, of which no doubt China and the US has some crazy claims, but if you just look at ridiculousness Europe's ones are probably the craziest because of colonies. Portugal's EEZ claim for example is larger than the size of India.
    - chickenimprint 4y ago
      Portuguese claims are pretty legit, the Azores and Madeira were previously uninhabited and settled by the Portuguese before the Eastern Roman Empire even fell. Excluding small island states, the seafood consumption per capita is the highest in the world, you can literally smell it in their supermarkets, and this traditional diet is supported to a large degree by the fishing industry within their EEZ. The proposed EEZ forms one continuous area with the mainland, something that can't be said for US, UK and French posessions.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- chickenimprint 4y ago
  The Greek claim is entirely reasonable, uncontroversial and correct according to the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. These islands have been continuously inhabited by Greeks for millennia. The border is drawn exactly according to the proximity to land. It's not some artificial pile of sand on a bank that will erode away if you look at it wrong, or an uninhabited atoll in the middle of nowhere, first discovered a century ago. I can't believe I'm reading someone earnestly disputing Greece's sovereignty on HN. Either there has been a lack of information or we're dealing with a case of rampant chauvinism and historical enmity. You should overlay the Greek EEZ on Japan's or China's claims to see how little it really is. Take a look at the US, UK and France in the Pacific for god's sake!
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - retinaros 4y ago
    a big chunk of the islands are closer to turkey and are uninhabited…
    - chickenimprint 4y ago
      Which relevant island is uninhabited? Go through them on maps right now, you'll be surprised. There's really nothing there to justify Erdogans neo-Ottomanist jingoism. Sometimes it's valuable to question the underlying motives of leadership. He's not blinded enough to believe he has a leg to stand on, but perceptive enough of the intense nationalism that pervades Turkish society (to be fair the same can be said about Greek and the rest of the Balkan society). It's really not a novel insight that exploiting those attitudes, pushing those buttons, distracts from mismanagement at home and guarantees reelection. I regard this feedback loop as one of the fundamental flaws of democracy. Echoes of every antagonising remark, every urealistic demand can be heard in Serbia, Palestine, Pakistan and wherever else there is a border dispute, causing perpetual bad governance and keeping the people riled up.
- jillesvangurp 4y ago
  Well, China's history is that the British showed up and declared places like Hong Kong to be theirs. Then later Japan came along and did the same to large parts of the pacific, including some Korean and Chinese bits. So, it may not be nice of the Chinese to be doing what they are doing but claiming areas and land for economical reasons is not without historical precedent. The US still has some strategic property in the Pacific. And of course bases in Japan and a partnership with Taiwan. And places like Panama used to be US territory as well. The British still hold on to the Falkland islands. It's not all about peace and democracy here either. So, Japan using some resources that they found off their own coast isn't the end of the world. And of course the Chinese are all over that as well. Practically in their back yard and most of it is in international waters, which makes it fair game legally.
  - wkat4242 4y ago
    Hong Kong was leased to the British and they gave it back after.
    - jillesvangurp 4y ago
      Hong Kong was leased over the course of two opium wars that were won by the British. Opium and tea were valuable Chinese commodities at the time. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/hong-kong-and-the-opium-wars/ https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/hong...
      - hnfong 4y ago
        Only the "New Territories" part was leased. The original treaties had Hong Kong Island and parts of modern day Kowloon ceded. The Brits were in a pickle when 1997 arrived because they couldn't realistically return only the leased parts without causing massive chaos, and China was threatening to take back the whole thing by force.
  - antifanboy 4y ago
    [dead]
- imtringued 4y ago
  Greece has Crete and a huge number of tiny islands whose economic exclusive zones overlap. Japan has such a big EEZ from very few remote islands and enough of those to form an enclave. The enclave is there because of a single island.
  - elashri 4y ago
    I know this, It is absurd because it ignores the whole of turkey because of this small one island. EEZ would extend at some points to inside turkey itself. It is just example of how absurd these claims even if they have basis ( actually the simple UN law doesn't address these problem -at least in a proper way). If you can't see how this is absurd from the photo I attached then there is nothing I can say. Anyway, it is only one example of many that we can talk about. The main point is that these claims are not unique or gaining this outrage outside the Chinese case because of the geopolitics differs in this case.
dnqthao 4y ago
This is not just EEZ claim. This is actually territorial water claim which is even crazier.

elashri 4y ago

Not something that is new. Absurd claims are something that even a European country can do like Greece interpretation of exclusive economic zone [1]. Not to say that this ia justification for China. Just to say that this is something happens with less outrage at different places. [1] https://cdn.cosmosphilly.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Exclusive-Economic-Zone-2-815x544.jpg https://cdn.cosmosphilly.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2020/01...

dirtyid 4y ago
Not to mention these are originally ROC / Taiwanese claims passed down to PRC when UN recognition formally switched, i.e. technically PRC didn't make these claims, but doing the geopolitically responsible / prudent thing of protecting them. Claims which btw predates other parties in the region, or UNCLOS formation, who does not rule on soverignty which makes PRC historic claims absurd and but also as legally valid as any other claims at UN (which does not recognize PCA "ruling" / kangaroo court).
largepeepee 4y ago
It's not even limited to Europe or China. The US lays claims to many deserted islands in the middle of nowhere in the Pacific for their HUGE EEZs and bird poop. No one dares contest the most well-armed navy on those though...or else.
albertopv 4y ago
Not every claim is the same. You can't really compare China to Greece, China is a nuclear power, millions of soldiers, she already showed not fearing using force.
- largepeepee 4y ago
  You are basing it on military power, of which no doubt China and the US has some crazy claims, but if you just look at ridiculousness Europe's ones are probably the craziest because of colonies. Portugal's EEZ claim for example is larger than the size of India.
  - chickenimprint 4y ago
    Portuguese claims are pretty legit, the Azores and Madeira were previously uninhabited and settled by the Portuguese before the Eastern Roman Empire even fell. Excluding small island states, the seafood consumption per capita is the highest in the world, you can literally smell it in their supermarkets, and this traditional diet is supported to a large degree by the fishing industry within their EEZ. The proposed EEZ forms one continuous area with the mainland, something that can't be said for US, UK and French posessions.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
chickenimprint 4y ago
The Greek claim is entirely reasonable, uncontroversial and correct according to the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. These islands have been continuously inhabited by Greeks for millennia. The border is drawn exactly according to the proximity to land. It's not some artificial pile of sand on a bank that will erode away if you look at it wrong, or an uninhabited atoll in the middle of nowhere, first discovered a century ago. I can't believe I'm reading someone earnestly disputing Greece's sovereignty on HN. Either there has been a lack of information or we're dealing with a case of rampant chauvinism and historical enmity. You should overlay the Greek EEZ on Japan's or China's claims to see how little it really is. Take a look at the US, UK and France in the Pacific for god's sake!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- retinaros 4y ago
  a big chunk of the islands are closer to turkey and are uninhabited…
  - chickenimprint 4y ago
    Which relevant island is uninhabited? Go through them on maps right now, you'll be surprised. There's really nothing there to justify Erdogans neo-Ottomanist jingoism. Sometimes it's valuable to question the underlying motives of leadership. He's not blinded enough to believe he has a leg to stand on, but perceptive enough of the intense nationalism that pervades Turkish society (to be fair the same can be said about Greek and the rest of the Balkan society). It's really not a novel insight that exploiting those attitudes, pushing those buttons, distracts from mismanagement at home and guarantees reelection. I regard this feedback loop as one of the fundamental flaws of democracy. Echoes of every antagonising remark, every urealistic demand can be heard in Serbia, Palestine, Pakistan and wherever else there is a border dispute, causing perpetual bad governance and keeping the people riled up.
jillesvangurp 4y ago
Well, China's history is that the British showed up and declared places like Hong Kong to be theirs. Then later Japan came along and did the same to large parts of the pacific, including some Korean and Chinese bits. So, it may not be nice of the Chinese to be doing what they are doing but claiming areas and land for economical reasons is not without historical precedent. The US still has some strategic property in the Pacific. And of course bases in Japan and a partnership with Taiwan. And places like Panama used to be US territory as well. The British still hold on to the Falkland islands. It's not all about peace and democracy here either. So, Japan using some resources that they found off their own coast isn't the end of the world. And of course the Chinese are all over that as well. Practically in their back yard and most of it is in international waters, which makes it fair game legally.
- wkat4242 4y ago
  Hong Kong was leased to the British and they gave it back after.
  - jillesvangurp 4y ago
    Hong Kong was leased over the course of two opium wars that were won by the British. Opium and tea were valuable Chinese commodities at the time. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/hong-kong-and-the-opium-wars/ https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/hong...
    - hnfong 4y ago
      Only the "New Territories" part was leased. The original treaties had Hong Kong Island and parts of modern day Kowloon ceded. The Brits were in a pickle when 1997 arrived because they couldn't realistically return only the leased parts without causing massive chaos, and China was threatening to take back the whole thing by force.
- antifanboy 4y ago
  [dead]
imtringued 4y ago
Greece has Crete and a huge number of tiny islands whose economic exclusive zones overlap. Japan has such a big EEZ from very few remote islands and enough of those to form an enclave. The enclave is there because of a single island.
- elashri 4y ago
  I know this, It is absurd because it ignores the whole of turkey because of this small one island. EEZ would extend at some points to inside turkey itself. It is just example of how absurd these claims even if they have basis ( actually the simple UN law doesn't address these problem -at least in a proper way). If you can't see how this is absurd from the photo I attached then there is nothing I can say. Anyway, it is only one example of many that we can talk about. The main point is that these claims are not unique or gaining this outrage outside the Chinese case because of the geopolitics differs in this case.

dnqthao 4y ago

This is not just EEZ claim. This is actually territorial water claim which is even crazier.