4 ms·

>And why do arguments in favor of removable batteries apply to phones and laptops, but not headphones, vehicles, cameras, etc? As far as I can tell this is not

>And why do arguments in favor of removable batteries apply to phones and laptops, but not headphones, vehicles, cameras, etc? As far as I can tell this is not accurate. I want user-serviceable batteries in all devices. Phones might get the most attention because they're the most ubiquitous, but I wish that all LiON batteries were standardized and user serviceable.

nradov 4y ago
That's a nice fantasy, but it would be simply impossible to build a device like my Garmin Descent Mk2 smart watch / dive computer with a user-serviceable battery while still maintaining 100m water resistance. It just can't be done. The extra seals would compromise water resistance and risk a leak when I'm underwater and need it most. And allowing for user-serviceable batteries would inevitably make it physically larger; it's already as large as a wristwatch can reasonably be.
- krolden 4y ago
  Hey I thought capitalism inspired innovation. So why does nearly every phone being made today is basically a brick of glass you can't open?
  - nickpp 4y ago
    Because that innovation is market driven and turns out "brick of glass" is what people want, no matter what you or I or the Brussels bureaucrats say.
    - growse 4y ago
      > Because that innovation is market driven and turns out "brick of glass" is what people want, no matter what you or I or the Brussels bureaucrats say. History has countless examples of how the market is very bad at accounting for externalities. People may very well want just a "brick of glass", but regulation comes in and drives innovation when it turns out that selling people what they want in the short term actually needlessly harms society in the long run. "What the people want" actually has a lot of nuance and variability over different timeframes.
      - nickpp 4y ago
        History has even more examples of how planners and regulators are bad at accounting for… reality, really. Or the unexpected creativity of people bent on getting what they want in spite of "well meaning" regulators. "What harms society" actually has a lot of nuance and variability over different timeframes. I don’t think anybody can define it, actually. Regulators making nuclear power hugely expensive and activists making it wildly unpopular thus condemning us to burn coal in 2022 quickly come to mind. Or the idiocy of banning plastic straws in the west while the ocean drowns in fishing nets from Asia.
    - alexvoda 4y ago
      Quite wrong. The market is efficient at solving simple issues. On the other hand a smartphone has pages long list if specs. And users have divergent preferences for those specs. The market is only able to find a common denominator that makes everyone equally unhappy. In doing so it transfers power to the few manufacturers who now make choices for the users. Even worse, manufacturers copy each other and follow fashion trends. It is almost impossible to find a phone that has a replaceable battery. It is very hard to find small phones. It is very hard to find phones with headphone jacks. It is very hard to find phones without a punchhole or notch for the camera. These are all things people desire, but either not strong enough or not enough people or both. I like the iPhone mini but not enough to sacrifice the flexibility of Android. I like displays without cutouts, but not enough to sacrifice the 4 years of updates Samsung offers. Etc. Etc. Etc.
      - nickpp 4y ago
        > things people desire, but either not strong enough or not enough people or both > I like […] but not enough > I like […] but not enough Sounds like the market has managed to understand perfectly the things people actually want in a phone versus the ones they are just paying lip service to. Taking such a long list of specs with wildly contradictory requirements and create compromise products that satisfiy the most is an extremely complex issue and something the market is uniquely suited to do - I am not aware of another mechanism that can do that, maybe a future AI.
        felurx 4y ago
        Getting updates and not having a notch are in no way contradictory requirements.
        nickpp 4y ago
        Maybe, but I would bet they both impact the device cost while their rank on most people's desired characteristics list is not very high.
        4y ago
- lightedman 4y ago
  "but it would be simply impossible to build a device like my Garmin Descent Mk2 smart watch / dive computer with a user-serviceable battery while still maintaining 100m water resistance. It just can't be done." That's been a solved problem for a very, very long time. Even older battery-operated dive watches have user-serviceable batteries. My Tekmagic is user-replaceable. The gaskets and tolerance ranges are well-understood for this sort of thing.
  - mvid 4y ago
    Replacing a battery once a year in a laborious process isn't an acceptable comparison for a device who's battery lasts a week at best.
    - Nullabillity 4y ago
      Nobody's saying that they have to be single-use batteries? Just that the rechargeable ones should be replaceable once they reach the end of their lifetime.
  - nradov 4y ago
    No that's completely incorrect. It is not a solved problem. Those Tekmagic devices have very limited functionality and are not real smart watches or fitness trackers like the Garmin Descent series. A smart watch draws more power than a replaceable CR2025 coin cell battery can sustain. (I had a similar old Suunto wristwatch style dive computer with a replaceable battery so I am very familiar with the differences.)
    - lightedman 4y ago
      "No that's completely incorrect. It is not a solved problem." We have IP6X-rated USB connectors. Charge port is a solved problem. Gaskets and seal plates are gaskets and seal plates, nothing really special about them. Solved problem. The battery probably won't need to be replaced for a few years, we aren't talking a coin cell, we're talking a mini-pouch like what already exists in these watches. I do work in this industry. It's a solved problem, has been for several decades.

nradov 4y ago

That's a nice fantasy, but it would be simply impossible to build a device like my Garmin Descent Mk2 smart watch / dive computer with a user-serviceable battery while still maintaining 100m water resistance. It just can't be done. The extra seals would compromise water resistance and risk a leak when I'm underwater and need it most. And allowing for user-serviceable batteries would inevitably make it physically larger; it's already as large as a wristwatch can reasonably be.

krolden 4y ago
Hey I thought capitalism inspired innovation. So why does nearly every phone being made today is basically a brick of glass you can't open?
- nickpp 4y ago
  Because that innovation is market driven and turns out "brick of glass" is what people want, no matter what you or I or the Brussels bureaucrats say.
  - growse 4y ago
    > Because that innovation is market driven and turns out "brick of glass" is what people want, no matter what you or I or the Brussels bureaucrats say. History has countless examples of how the market is very bad at accounting for externalities. People may very well want just a "brick of glass", but regulation comes in and drives innovation when it turns out that selling people what they want in the short term actually needlessly harms society in the long run. "What the people want" actually has a lot of nuance and variability over different timeframes.
    - nickpp 4y ago
      History has even more examples of how planners and regulators are bad at accounting for… reality, really. Or the unexpected creativity of people bent on getting what they want in spite of "well meaning" regulators. "What harms society" actually has a lot of nuance and variability over different timeframes. I don’t think anybody can define it, actually. Regulators making nuclear power hugely expensive and activists making it wildly unpopular thus condemning us to burn coal in 2022 quickly come to mind. Or the idiocy of banning plastic straws in the west while the ocean drowns in fishing nets from Asia.
  - alexvoda 4y ago
    Quite wrong. The market is efficient at solving simple issues. On the other hand a smartphone has pages long list if specs. And users have divergent preferences for those specs. The market is only able to find a common denominator that makes everyone equally unhappy. In doing so it transfers power to the few manufacturers who now make choices for the users. Even worse, manufacturers copy each other and follow fashion trends. It is almost impossible to find a phone that has a replaceable battery. It is very hard to find small phones. It is very hard to find phones with headphone jacks. It is very hard to find phones without a punchhole or notch for the camera. These are all things people desire, but either not strong enough or not enough people or both. I like the iPhone mini but not enough to sacrifice the flexibility of Android. I like displays without cutouts, but not enough to sacrifice the 4 years of updates Samsung offers. Etc. Etc. Etc.
    - nickpp 4y ago
      > things people desire, but either not strong enough or not enough people or both > I like […] but not enough > I like […] but not enough Sounds like the market has managed to understand perfectly the things people actually want in a phone versus the ones they are just paying lip service to. Taking such a long list of specs with wildly contradictory requirements and create compromise products that satisfiy the most is an extremely complex issue and something the market is uniquely suited to do - I am not aware of another mechanism that can do that, maybe a future AI.
      - felurx 4y ago
        Getting updates and not having a notch are in no way contradictory requirements.
        nickpp 4y ago
        Maybe, but I would bet they both impact the device cost while their rank on most people's desired characteristics list is not very high.
        4y ago
lightedman 4y ago
"but it would be simply impossible to build a device like my Garmin Descent Mk2 smart watch / dive computer with a user-serviceable battery while still maintaining 100m water resistance. It just can't be done." That's been a solved problem for a very, very long time. Even older battery-operated dive watches have user-serviceable batteries. My Tekmagic is user-replaceable. The gaskets and tolerance ranges are well-understood for this sort of thing.
- mvid 4y ago
  Replacing a battery once a year in a laborious process isn't an acceptable comparison for a device who's battery lasts a week at best.
  - Nullabillity 4y ago
    Nobody's saying that they have to be single-use batteries? Just that the rechargeable ones should be replaceable once they reach the end of their lifetime.
- nradov 4y ago
  No that's completely incorrect. It is not a solved problem. Those Tekmagic devices have very limited functionality and are not real smart watches or fitness trackers like the Garmin Descent series. A smart watch draws more power than a replaceable CR2025 coin cell battery can sustain. (I had a similar old Suunto wristwatch style dive computer with a replaceable battery so I am very familiar with the differences.)
  - lightedman 4y ago
    "No that's completely incorrect. It is not a solved problem." We have IP6X-rated USB connectors. Charge port is a solved problem. Gaskets and seal plates are gaskets and seal plates, nothing really special about them. Solved problem. The battery probably won't need to be replaced for a few years, we aren't talking a coin cell, we're talking a mini-pouch like what already exists in these watches. I do work in this industry. It's a solved problem, has been for several decades.