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There are many advantages to integrated batteries: - Waterproofing. Fewer seals means more resistance to water ingress. - Compact size. Standard battery sizes

by ggreer 4y ago

There are many advantages to integrated batteries: - Waterproofing. Fewer seals means more resistance to water ingress. - Compact size. Standard battery sizes rarely fit thin or irregular designs. - Better battery life. An integrated battery can be designed to fill all available spare space in a device. - Cost. Integrated batteries involve fewer connectors and parts. - User satisfaction. Users often blame original manufacturers when the problem is actually poor quality 3rd party batteries. This was extremely common back when most laptops had removable batteries. And why do arguments in favor of removable batteries apply to phones and laptops, but not headphones, vehicles, cameras, etc? Just let people buy the devices they want. There’s no need to have the government force people to use things they dislike.

schwartzworld 4y ago
> but not headphones, vehicles, cameras, etc Both my car and my DSLR have user replaceable batteries. My headphones don't because they are wired.
- ggreer 4y ago
  I’m talking about EVs, not combustion vehicles. Also there’s no law forcing everyone to use removable batteries in any of those devices. My point is that users freely choose different types of batteries for different applications. It makes no sense to coerce everyone else into choosing your favorite type of battery.
  - schwartzworld 4y ago
    > My point is that users freely choose different types of batteries for different applications. Where is the choice when all manufacturers arrive at the same conclusion: it's better for profits not to offer replaceable batteries?
gumboza 4y ago
Agree on all points. The key thing the EU are ruling on here are phones. I replace my phone or laptop battery every 3 years at average! Does it need to be removable for that? Hell no. Sticky tape, glued in I don't care. I will pay apple or whoever to replace it. 30 minutes of labour is fine for this interval! What pisses me off are the people who are too fucking cheap to pay for a phone battery from the manufacturer but will throw 10x the cost on trivial repairs on a premium car while whining about it.
- rat9988 4y ago
  Why should I pay for a battery from the manufacturer instead of other suppliers?
  - janosdebugs 4y ago
    Because won't somebody think of the... Wait, no, I meant to say: "It's dangerous and a third party battery can set your phone on fire!" Also, "it will allow hackers to steal your data". /s As far as I can tell, the manufacturers are doing a pretty good job at occassionally setting your phone on fire and exposing your data themselves.
- krolden 4y ago
  Most issues with batreires in laptops and stuff come from vendor firmware that checks if its a genuine OEM part or not. Same with printer cartridges.
  - mmis1000 4y ago
    Yep, call pros to replace them every 3 years? Probably okay. Device becomes trash after 3 years because battery is DRM-protected and no longer produced? EU should really f**k them hard about this behavior. It's 100% planned obsolescence. Log the producer of parts is okay but intentionally make them non functional is not.
    - gumboza 4y ago
      Oh I agree with that one entirely. One reason I buy apple shit is last year I got them to stuff a new battery in my old 6s which I bought in 2015 and they did it there and then in store. Second swap it has had.
  - gumboza 4y ago
    No thats not the main issue. Most of the issues come from crap batteries not being anywhere near fit for purpose. I’ve swapped out enough (tens of the things) to see that as the average case. Most laptops just whine about third party batteries and you can just nuke the vendor battery junk to get rid of it.
everdrive 4y ago
>And why do arguments in favor of removable batteries apply to phones and laptops, but not headphones, vehicles, cameras, etc? As far as I can tell this is not accurate. I want user-serviceable batteries in all devices. Phones might get the most attention because they're the most ubiquitous, but I wish that all LiON batteries were standardized and user serviceable.
- nradov 4y ago
  That's a nice fantasy, but it would be simply impossible to build a device like my Garmin Descent Mk2 smart watch / dive computer with a user-serviceable battery while still maintaining 100m water resistance. It just can't be done. The extra seals would compromise water resistance and risk a leak when I'm underwater and need it most. And allowing for user-serviceable batteries would inevitably make it physically larger; it's already as large as a wristwatch can reasonably be.
  - krolden 4y ago
    Hey I thought capitalism inspired innovation. So why does nearly every phone being made today is basically a brick of glass you can't open?
    - nickpp 4y ago
      Because that innovation is market driven and turns out "brick of glass" is what people want, no matter what you or I or the Brussels bureaucrats say.
      - growse 4y ago
        > Because that innovation is market driven and turns out "brick of glass" is what people want, no matter what you or I or the Brussels bureaucrats say. History has countless examples of how the market is very bad at accounting for externalities. People may very well want just a "brick of glass", but regulation comes in and drives innovation when it turns out that selling people what they want in the short term actually needlessly harms society in the long run. "What the people want" actually has a lot of nuance and variability over different timeframes.
PontifexMinimus 4y ago
> Just let people buy the devices they want But that's not what will happen. Instead people will have to buy the devices manufacturers force on them.
- ggreer 4y ago
  How are manufacturers forcing anything? They are all competing with each other for customers. The problem is that making a modern phone is ridiculously expensive, and not enough customers want removable batteries to make the investment worthwhile. Samsung made phones with removable batteries. Not enough people bought them, so the product line was discontinued. Apple can’t force you to buy any of their products. Tim Cook can’t send men with guns to your home and put you in a cage. The government can. Anyone who uses that power to force people to make phones with removable batteries is absurdly authoritarian.
  - gambiting 4y ago
    I only sorta agree with this argument. It's like saying that headphone jack was removed because not enough people bought phones with them - and that's obviously nonsense, pretty much every manufacturer dropped them within a very short timespan, so there really wasn't any choice in that matter as a consumer. Especially for consumers invested into an ecosystem(apple), manufacturer took away that choice - and the cost of switching away to android to keep the headphone jack was greater than dealing with the inconvenience, so most people didn't do that - but that doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer to keep the port. >>Anyone who uses that power to force people to make phones with removable batteries is absurdly authoritarian. Do you think any and all regulations are authoritarian? Governments everywhere, not just in EU, try to legislate based on what's best for the society. As the simplest example, they force manufacturers to limit transmission power to protect users from too much RF exposure - is that authoritarian? Or just a good idea that protects people? What if customers would prefer phones that have a stronger signal, at the potential expense of health consequences? Similarly, we can decide that it's better for the society if phones have removable batteries, because in theory it will lead to less electronic waste(which affects us all). I don't personally think that's true, I think even with removable batteries people will just buy new phones every 2 years anyway, but I wouldn't describe this move as authoritarian - just misguided.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
hinkley 4y ago
The problem with phones, even up through the Symbian ones that presaged the iPhone, was that if you didn't have the most popular phone model around you could not find a decent replacement battery after the product end-of-lifed. For a while Fry's was the only place. So with respect to 'the largest battery' it's a matter of whether it's really fruitful for your new model to have a battery that's 2mm wider than the old one because you shrunk some component and want the extra 10% battery life you get by doing so. If you're laying up your own prismatic cells from a reel of battery film, why not? If you need a whole separate distribution chain, fuck it, we use the same battery as last year.
rasz 4y ago
My very first cellphone was Ericsson t10s, removable battery was part of the case. Solves all of the problems you mention.

by ggreer 4y ago

schwartzworld 4y ago

> but not headphones, vehicles, cameras, etc Both my car and my DSLR have user replaceable batteries. My headphones don't because they are wired.

ggreer 4y ago
I’m talking about EVs, not combustion vehicles. Also there’s no law forcing everyone to use removable batteries in any of those devices. My point is that users freely choose different types of batteries for different applications. It makes no sense to coerce everyone else into choosing your favorite type of battery.
- schwartzworld 4y ago
  > My point is that users freely choose different types of batteries for different applications. Where is the choice when all manufacturers arrive at the same conclusion: it's better for profits not to offer replaceable batteries?

gumboza 4y ago

Agree on all points. The key thing the EU are ruling on here are phones. I replace my phone or laptop battery every 3 years at average! Does it need to be removable for that? Hell no. Sticky tape, glued in I don't care. I will pay apple or whoever to replace it. 30 minutes of labour is fine for this interval! What pisses me off are the people who are too fucking cheap to pay for a phone battery from the manufacturer but will throw 10x the cost on trivial repairs on a premium car while whining about it.

rat9988 4y ago
Why should I pay for a battery from the manufacturer instead of other suppliers?
- janosdebugs 4y ago
  Because won't somebody think of the... Wait, no, I meant to say: "It's dangerous and a third party battery can set your phone on fire!" Also, "it will allow hackers to steal your data". /s As far as I can tell, the manufacturers are doing a pretty good job at occassionally setting your phone on fire and exposing your data themselves.
krolden 4y ago
Most issues with batreires in laptops and stuff come from vendor firmware that checks if its a genuine OEM part or not. Same with printer cartridges.
- mmis1000 4y ago
  Yep, call pros to replace them every 3 years? Probably okay. Device becomes trash after 3 years because battery is DRM-protected and no longer produced? EU should really f**k them hard about this behavior. It's 100% planned obsolescence. Log the producer of parts is okay but intentionally make them non functional is not.
  - gumboza 4y ago
    Oh I agree with that one entirely. One reason I buy apple shit is last year I got them to stuff a new battery in my old 6s which I bought in 2015 and they did it there and then in store. Second swap it has had.
- gumboza 4y ago
  No thats not the main issue. Most of the issues come from crap batteries not being anywhere near fit for purpose. I’ve swapped out enough (tens of the things) to see that as the average case. Most laptops just whine about third party batteries and you can just nuke the vendor battery junk to get rid of it.

everdrive 4y ago

>And why do arguments in favor of removable batteries apply to phones and laptops, but not headphones, vehicles, cameras, etc? As far as I can tell this is not accurate. I want user-serviceable batteries in all devices. Phones might get the most attention because they're the most ubiquitous, but I wish that all LiON batteries were standardized and user serviceable.

nradov 4y ago
That's a nice fantasy, but it would be simply impossible to build a device like my Garmin Descent Mk2 smart watch / dive computer with a user-serviceable battery while still maintaining 100m water resistance. It just can't be done. The extra seals would compromise water resistance and risk a leak when I'm underwater and need it most. And allowing for user-serviceable batteries would inevitably make it physically larger; it's already as large as a wristwatch can reasonably be.
- krolden 4y ago
  Hey I thought capitalism inspired innovation. So why does nearly every phone being made today is basically a brick of glass you can't open?
  - nickpp 4y ago
    Because that innovation is market driven and turns out "brick of glass" is what people want, no matter what you or I or the Brussels bureaucrats say.
    - growse 4y ago
      > Because that innovation is market driven and turns out "brick of glass" is what people want, no matter what you or I or the Brussels bureaucrats say. History has countless examples of how the market is very bad at accounting for externalities. People may very well want just a "brick of glass", but regulation comes in and drives innovation when it turns out that selling people what they want in the short term actually needlessly harms society in the long run. "What the people want" actually has a lot of nuance and variability over different timeframes.

PontifexMinimus 4y ago

> Just let people buy the devices they want But that's not what will happen. Instead people will have to buy the devices manufacturers force on them.

ggreer 4y ago
How are manufacturers forcing anything? They are all competing with each other for customers. The problem is that making a modern phone is ridiculously expensive, and not enough customers want removable batteries to make the investment worthwhile. Samsung made phones with removable batteries. Not enough people bought them, so the product line was discontinued. Apple can’t force you to buy any of their products. Tim Cook can’t send men with guns to your home and put you in a cage. The government can. Anyone who uses that power to force people to make phones with removable batteries is absurdly authoritarian.
- gambiting 4y ago
  I only sorta agree with this argument. It's like saying that headphone jack was removed because not enough people bought phones with them - and that's obviously nonsense, pretty much every manufacturer dropped them within a very short timespan, so there really wasn't any choice in that matter as a consumer. Especially for consumers invested into an ecosystem(apple), manufacturer took away that choice - and the cost of switching away to android to keep the headphone jack was greater than dealing with the inconvenience, so most people didn't do that - but that doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer to keep the port. >>Anyone who uses that power to force people to make phones with removable batteries is absurdly authoritarian. Do you think any and all regulations are authoritarian? Governments everywhere, not just in EU, try to legislate based on what's best for the society. As the simplest example, they force manufacturers to limit transmission power to protect users from too much RF exposure - is that authoritarian? Or just a good idea that protects people? What if customers would prefer phones that have a stronger signal, at the potential expense of health consequences? Similarly, we can decide that it's better for the society if phones have removable batteries, because in theory it will lead to less electronic waste(which affects us all). I don't personally think that's true, I think even with removable batteries people will just buy new phones every 2 years anyway, but I wouldn't describe this move as authoritarian - just misguided.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

hinkley 4y ago

The problem with phones, even up through the Symbian ones that presaged the iPhone, was that if you didn't have the most popular phone model around you could not find a decent replacement battery after the product end-of-lifed. For a while Fry's was the only place. So with respect to 'the largest battery' it's a matter of whether it's really fruitful for your new model to have a battery that's 2mm wider than the old one because you shrunk some component and want the extra 10% battery life you get by doing so. If you're laying up your own prismatic cells from a reel of battery film, why not? If you need a whole separate distribution chain, fuck it, we use the same battery as last year.

rasz 4y ago

My very first cellphone was Ericsson t10s, removable battery was part of the case. Solves all of the problems you mention.