4 ms·

I've had a lot of ergo issues from typing, and I'm always disappointed that Emacs users focus on remapping the Caps Lock key while ignoring the advice most ergo

I've had a lot of ergo issues from typing, and I'm always disappointed that Emacs users focus on remapping the Caps Lock key while ignoring the advice most ergonomists give: There are two Alt and Ctrl keys on the keyboard. Use both, and use both halves of the keyboard If you're doing a combination like Ctrl F, use the right control key. If you're doing Ctrl-l, use the left control key. In general, when using these modifier keys, make sure both your hands are being utilized. Also, there's simply no rule that says one must use the pinky for the Ctrl key. Use some other finger. In fact, insisting on using the pinky is a sign you are also insisting on using one hand to enter the key combination.

convolvatron 4y ago
or, if you're really that much a dedicated emacs user, get a split keyboard with modifiers on the thumb. as you suggest, you can also double-map modifiers, so that C-M-x is just two thumbs and a finger. you can go really fast this way.
- BeetleB 4y ago
  That's fine advice, but I will note that twice in my career I've had bad RSI issues due to overuse of my thumb. I learned the wisdom of trying to utilize as many fingers as possible. Perhaps it slows me down a little, but my performance is not correlated with typing speed.
- nine_k 4y ago
  Modifiers on the home row are easier. Thumbs are good for layer switching, keys like Tab and Enter, etc, which are important but not very-very frequent.
pwiecz 4y ago
Unfortunately both Alts are not equivalent. The right one, the AltGr is uaef in many languages to type letters with diacritics. E.g. in Polish AltGr+Z is Ż, while AltGr+X is Ź. Still using both Ctrls itself helps a lot, and one may have a right Windows to remap as Meta.
- msla 4y ago
  Another possible solution is to define a compose key (I use SysRq) to type characters not on the keyboard, such that (for example) the three-key sequence "SysRq . Z" is Ż. Here's the XCompose file I use: https://github.com/kragen/xcompose https://github.com/kragen/xcompose
- CmdrKrool 4y ago
  It might be good if keyboards were more symmetrical in general. Perhaps the Enter key could be in the middle, below the space bar, instead of on the right which might come from a vestigial bias towards left-to-right languages. This is the closest thing I found just now by googling, though by similarly 'directional' reasoning I think Del and Backspace don't belong in the central column and should be on opposite sides: https://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/truly-ergonomic-227-mechanical-keyboard-printed-soft-tactile-action-86-key-data-sheet.asp https://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/truly-ergonomic-227-mech...
  - rgoulter 4y ago
    > Perhaps the Enter key could be in the middle, ... Yes, such keyboards exist. As well as enter/backspace/delete, it's also useful to have esc/tab near spacebar. https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku e.g. A popular off-the-shelf keyboard which supports this layout https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ > ...below the space bar Well. Then you'd need to move your hands, or stretch your fingers a bit. It's better to have a smaller spacebar key, to allow for extra keys.
- layer8 4y ago
  They are equivalent in the US layout, which doesn’t have AltGr. For software developers, the US layout is the most ergonomic, and I’d recommend using a Compose key for diacritics and such (I use the Caps Lock key as the Compose key). I’m not from the US, so no home bias here. :)
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  That can be fixed outside of Windows [0]. What you're looking for, is a ISO Level 3 Shift (at least as far as X11 is concerned. Don't know the terms on windows). I configured my keyboard to use the WIN keys as that. Super I only use for window-management related things, which I don't use is all the time and I can configure the actions to be on my right-hand. Therefore, since CAPS is useless, I remapped it to Super. This way, with the dead keys, you can create many composed symbols. For writing French, an US layout is perfect, and I can type as fast as on a French keyboard. For your particular case, I don't know how to create the Ż, but Lvl3 + e + Z -> Ź. It's likely that if you used a different layout, this would be possible. --- [0] I've tried multiple times to get a keyboard layout like on a mac, with its deadkeys system, but never managed to remap the AltGr properly.
ahmedalsudani 4y ago
Emacs is a great platform, but the default key mappings make it an RSI machine. If I recommend Emacs to anybody today, the first thing I would tell them is to: - enable evil mode and prefer its interface to vanilla Emacs - install doom-emacs and learn to love the leader key instead of the C-[...] combinations And of course what you said about moving your whole hand and using both hands still applies, including when you need to use the shift key. I started to develop RSI once in 2015 and got my act together after that scare with an ergonomic setup and better practices. It's been smooth sailing since, always as an Emacs user.
- Ferret7446 4y ago
  > the default key mappings make it an RSI machine. Citation needed. Even the poster child for that rumor, RMS, fixed his problem by switching to a better keyboard.
  - ahmedalsudani 4y ago
    I'm describing my experience. Feel free to live according to yours if it differs. Also, in jest: citation needed on the RMS claim. We can all play that game ad absurdium :)
    - Ferret7446 4y ago
      https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html > In the mid 90s I had bad hand pain, so bad that most of the day I could only type with one finger. The FSF hired typists for me part of the day, and part of the day I tolerated the pain. After a few years I found out that the pain was due to the hard keys of my keyboard. I switched to a keyboard with lighter key pressure and the problem mostly went away.
alimw 4y ago
The MacBook doesn't have ctrl on the right! But I've done my best to follow this advice by making right-opt into ctrl and right-cmd into meta.
spudlyo 4y ago
I don't think focusing on hitting Ctrl on one side or the other is the problem -- it's the awkward contortion your hand has to make to hit the key, pinky or otherwise. It's in the same bad position on either side on a standard IBM PC 101 and later keyboard layouts. You'll just end up hurting both your hands if you alternate. Caps Lock as Ctrl will serve most Emacs users for quite a long time, and it's traditionally where the key was before IBM in their infinite wisdom moved it in 1986.
- keybored 4y ago
  OP already said that you dont have to use the pinky to hit the keys. I find the palm of my hand is nice for the right control key and the last knuckle of my pinky is nice for the left one (respectively on the appropriate hands). And my hands aren’t ruined yet.
  - spudlyo 4y ago
    I'm glad you found something that works for you. A friend used a similar technique of mashing the right and left control keys with his palms, but unfortunately after a month or so he discovered this hurt his hands too. I'm of the opinion if you're regularly pressing keys on the keyboard without using the tips of your fingers and/or thumbs you're doing it wrong.
    - keybored 4y ago
      I press. I don’t mash...
- BeetleB 4y ago
  > it's the awkward contortion your hand has to make to hit the key, pinky or otherwise. Then don't contort. As I mentioned in another comment, insisting on keeping your fingers on the home keys is a bad idea. You should never bend the wrist while typing. When I want to hit the Ctrl key, I move my whole arm down and to the left so that my pinky (or any other finger) is over the Ctrl key. Moving your whole arm is what is recommended. BTW, I'm not against remapping to the Caps Lock key at all - I grew up on those keyboards as well. I am merely dismayed that it is the first advice given, when it is fairly minor in preventing RSI.
keybored 4y ago
Yep. Proper touch typing, in other words.
rhaway84773 4y ago
The only way to hit the ctrl key ergonomically with either hand is by lifting your hand from the home row. But that makes touch typing ridiculously hard. It is extremely easy to fail to return your hand correctly to the home row and now everything you type will be off.
- b5n 4y ago
  > The only way to hit the ctrl key ergonomically I just just use the side of my palm (top of fifth metacarpal) to engage C. Super comfortable, low effort, no leaving the home row.
- chillfox 4y ago
  There are small bumps on the F and J keys so that you can feel when you are correctly on the home row.
  - rhaway84773 4y ago
    Yes, but then you need to bring your hands back to the correct position, and you’re lifting it off the keyboard. Which means you will likely be fumbling till you feel the bumps correctly. With Vim and Caps Lock mapped to Ctrl & Esc I never have to completely leave the home row.
    - chillfox 4y ago
      Can't say I have ever needed to fumble to find them, my fingers just land on them.
- wruza 4y ago
  It’s sad that the best space for control keys is occupied by a pretty boring “ “ key, which is 6+ keys wide for some stupid reason.
TacticalCoder 4y ago
Your comment assumes everybody is using a "normal" keyboard. Since then a great many have come up with actually ergonomic keyboards and they virtually all have something in common: modifiers easily reached with the thumbs while the hands are in their home position. No crazy "moving the entire left hand to not hit ctrl with the pinky". That's not ergonomic. At all. If the layout is QWERTY, left hand on asdf, right and on jkl; and the thumbs on modifiers/spacebar. Hitting modifiers do not require hand movement and do not require stretching the finger underneath your other fingers. If anyone's serious about this, consider an actual ergonomic keyboard (Ergodox, Keyboardio, Kinesis, etc.). I picked Japanese keyboards --even though I don't speak japanese-- for several reasons: they're ubiquitous, they can be had with Topre switches (I much prefer Topre than Cherry), the spacebar is tiny so I don't need to distort my thumbs to reach the modifiers, they have lots of modifiers (due to the various input methods japanese has) and, well, the killer... Laptops with japanese keyboards are a thing. Laptops with, say, a Keyboardio keyboard: not so much a thing (unless you carry your keyboard and your laptop of course). I remap the entire keyboard to be basically QWERTY with Hyper and Super in addition to Ctrl/Alt/Meta/Shift. Super is dedicated only* to the window manager and nothing else. Modifier+ijkl sends the actual arrows key code. Works in every single app. Life is good.
- BeetleB 4y ago
  > No crazy "moving the entire left hand to not hit ctrl with the pinky". That's not ergonomic. At all. Sorry, but ergonomists disagree. Moving your whole hand + arm, as long as you are not twisting your wrist, is in general recommended. I've asked them about keeping the fingers on the home row, and the response has always been: "No good research to support it, nor any to disrecommend it."
  - mandw 4y ago
    I think your reply is still based on a standard keyboard. When you get to more ergonomic keyboards you can stay on the homerow and also reach modifiers without moving. While most people do not have an ergonomic keyboard then what you say is likely true and most ergonomists would agree but I think they would also agree that even better is not have to move and use an ergonomic keyboard. That comes with cost and time which is why most still dont use them.
zajio1am 4y ago
> Use both, and use both halves of the keyboard If you're doing a combination like Ctrl F, use the right control key. If you're doing Ctrl-l, use the left control key. Coordinating both hands to press key combos seems much harder than doing that with just one hand. Also, in many cases (unrelated to Emacs), one hand is on mouse, so pressing keyboard shortcuts by one hand is much more useful than depending on both hands.
- BeetleB 4y ago
  > Coordinating both hands to press key combos seems much harder than doing that with just one hand. Anything is harder until you get used to it :-) I had to make the shift. It wasn't really an option for me. Life improved after I made that shift. > Also, in many cases (unrelated to Emacs), one hand is on mouse While this is unfortunately true, it is still considered unergonomic by most ergonomists (any mouse use is unergonomic if it is continuous). They always recommend using the keyboard if the mouse can be avoided. In a past life I did CAD work with a mouse. Horrible ergonomic issues ensued. Life got a lot better once I switched to programming.
tmtvl 4y ago
I agree with using the correct sided modifier, though I disagree with your statement that using the little finger for pressing CTRL means one insists on using one hand. If I hit right CTRL with the little finger of my right hand there is no way I am hitting, say, A with the same hand. ...though I will admit that I have a bad habit of hitting C-x one-handedly (I have my system configured to the Dvorak layout).
cpleppert 4y ago
>> Use both, and use both halves of the keyboard If you're doing a combination like Ctrl F, use the right control key. If you're doing Ctrl-l, use the left control key. You can also remap both caps lock and enter to control when they are used in combination with other keys. If you press them alone then they can be caps lock(or escape) and enter as normal. Pretty easy to do in karabiner. No RSI issues and you never have to worry about hunting for the ctrl keys with your pinkies on the bottom of the keyboard.
fsckboy 4y ago
> In fact, insisting on using the pinky is a sign you are also insisting on using one hand to enter the key combination no it's not. insisting on using the pinky is an attempt to keep the rest of your touch-typing fingers remaining in place on the home row, which is the main reason using opposite hand shift keys is appealing in the first place. If you're going to take your fingers off the home row, sure, use opposing index fingers for everything.
xmcqdpt2 4y ago
I agree. I think the recommendation to remap control onto caps lock is fundamentally misguided and based on poor typing practice. Many Control bindings are on the left (C-x, C-c) and using caps lock for them (without sticky keys) would be very unergonomic. What I do is remap control, alt and windows key such that control is closest to the space key (like windows, alt, ctrl space ctrl alt windows). Then I can use my thumbs (symmetrically on both sides) to type any control key sequence.

convolvatron 4y ago

or, if you're really that much a dedicated emacs user, get a split keyboard with modifiers on the thumb. as you suggest, you can also double-map modifiers, so that C-M-x is just two thumbs and a finger. you can go really fast this way.

BeetleB 4y ago
That's fine advice, but I will note that twice in my career I've had bad RSI issues due to overuse of my thumb. I learned the wisdom of trying to utilize as many fingers as possible. Perhaps it slows me down a little, but my performance is not correlated with typing speed.
nine_k 4y ago
Modifiers on the home row are easier. Thumbs are good for layer switching, keys like Tab and Enter, etc, which are important but not very-very frequent.

pwiecz 4y ago

Unfortunately both Alts are not equivalent. The right one, the AltGr is uaef in many languages to type letters with diacritics. E.g. in Polish AltGr+Z is Ż, while AltGr+X is Ź. Still using both Ctrls itself helps a lot, and one may have a right Windows to remap as Meta.

msla 4y ago
Another possible solution is to define a compose key (I use SysRq) to type characters not on the keyboard, such that (for example) the three-key sequence "SysRq . Z" is Ż. Here's the XCompose file I use: https://github.com/kragen/xcompose https://github.com/kragen/xcompose
CmdrKrool 4y ago
It might be good if keyboards were more symmetrical in general. Perhaps the Enter key could be in the middle, below the space bar, instead of on the right which might come from a vestigial bias towards left-to-right languages. This is the closest thing I found just now by googling, though by similarly 'directional' reasoning I think Del and Backspace don't belong in the central column and should be on opposite sides: https://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/truly-ergonomic-227-mechanical-keyboard-printed-soft-tactile-action-86-key-data-sheet.asp https://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/truly-ergonomic-227-mech...
- rgoulter 4y ago
  > Perhaps the Enter key could be in the middle, ... Yes, such keyboards exist. As well as enter/backspace/delete, it's also useful to have esc/tab near spacebar. https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku e.g. A popular off-the-shelf keyboard which supports this layout https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ > ...below the space bar Well. Then you'd need to move your hands, or stretch your fingers a bit. It's better to have a smaller spacebar key, to allow for extra keys.
layer8 4y ago
They are equivalent in the US layout, which doesn’t have AltGr. For software developers, the US layout is the most ergonomic, and I’d recommend using a Compose key for diacritics and such (I use the Caps Lock key as the Compose key). I’m not from the US, so no home bias here. :)
vladvasiliu 4y ago
That can be fixed outside of Windows [0]. What you're looking for, is a ISO Level 3 Shift (at least as far as X11 is concerned. Don't know the terms on windows). I configured my keyboard to use the WIN keys as that. Super I only use for window-management related things, which I don't use is all the time and I can configure the actions to be on my right-hand. Therefore, since CAPS is useless, I remapped it to Super. This way, with the dead keys, you can create many composed symbols. For writing French, an US layout is perfect, and I can type as fast as on a French keyboard. For your particular case, I don't know how to create the Ż, but Lvl3 + e + Z -> Ź. It's likely that if you used a different layout, this would be possible. --- [0] I've tried multiple times to get a keyboard layout like on a mac, with its deadkeys system, but never managed to remap the AltGr properly.

ahmedalsudani 4y ago

Emacs is a great platform, but the default key mappings make it an RSI machine. If I recommend Emacs to anybody today, the first thing I would tell them is to: - enable evil mode and prefer its interface to vanilla Emacs - install doom-emacs and learn to love the leader key instead of the C-[...] combinations And of course what you said about moving your whole hand and using both hands still applies, including when you need to use the shift key. I started to develop RSI once in 2015 and got my act together after that scare with an ergonomic setup and better practices. It's been smooth sailing since, always as an Emacs user.

Ferret7446 4y ago
> the default key mappings make it an RSI machine. Citation needed. Even the poster child for that rumor, RMS, fixed his problem by switching to a better keyboard.
- ahmedalsudani 4y ago
  I'm describing my experience. Feel free to live according to yours if it differs. Also, in jest: citation needed on the RMS claim. We can all play that game ad absurdium :)
  - Ferret7446 4y ago
    https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html > In the mid 90s I had bad hand pain, so bad that most of the day I could only type with one finger. The FSF hired typists for me part of the day, and part of the day I tolerated the pain. After a few years I found out that the pain was due to the hard keys of my keyboard. I switched to a keyboard with lighter key pressure and the problem mostly went away.

alimw 4y ago

The MacBook doesn't have ctrl on the right! But I've done my best to follow this advice by making right-opt into ctrl and right-cmd into meta.

spudlyo 4y ago

I don't think focusing on hitting Ctrl on one side or the other is the problem -- it's the awkward contortion your hand has to make to hit the key, pinky or otherwise. It's in the same bad position on either side on a standard IBM PC 101 and later keyboard layouts. You'll just end up hurting both your hands if you alternate. Caps Lock as Ctrl will serve most Emacs users for quite a long time, and it's traditionally where the key was before IBM in their infinite wisdom moved it in 1986.

keybored 4y ago
OP already said that you dont have to use the pinky to hit the keys. I find the palm of my hand is nice for the right control key and the last knuckle of my pinky is nice for the left one (respectively on the appropriate hands). And my hands aren’t ruined yet.
- spudlyo 4y ago
  I'm glad you found something that works for you. A friend used a similar technique of mashing the right and left control keys with his palms, but unfortunately after a month or so he discovered this hurt his hands too. I'm of the opinion if you're regularly pressing keys on the keyboard without using the tips of your fingers and/or thumbs you're doing it wrong.
  - keybored 4y ago
    I press. I don’t mash...
BeetleB 4y ago
> it's the awkward contortion your hand has to make to hit the key, pinky or otherwise. Then don't contort. As I mentioned in another comment, insisting on keeping your fingers on the home keys is a bad idea. You should never bend the wrist while typing. When I want to hit the Ctrl key, I move my whole arm down and to the left so that my pinky (or any other finger) is over the Ctrl key. Moving your whole arm is what is recommended. BTW, I'm not against remapping to the Caps Lock key at all - I grew up on those keyboards as well. I am merely dismayed that it is the first advice given, when it is fairly minor in preventing RSI.

keybored 4y ago

Yep. Proper touch typing, in other words.

rhaway84773 4y ago

The only way to hit the ctrl key ergonomically with either hand is by lifting your hand from the home row. But that makes touch typing ridiculously hard. It is extremely easy to fail to return your hand correctly to the home row and now everything you type will be off.

b5n 4y ago
> The only way to hit the ctrl key ergonomically I just just use the side of my palm (top of fifth metacarpal) to engage C. Super comfortable, low effort, no leaving the home row.
chillfox 4y ago
There are small bumps on the F and J keys so that you can feel when you are correctly on the home row.
- rhaway84773 4y ago
  Yes, but then you need to bring your hands back to the correct position, and you’re lifting it off the keyboard. Which means you will likely be fumbling till you feel the bumps correctly. With Vim and Caps Lock mapped to Ctrl & Esc I never have to completely leave the home row.
  - chillfox 4y ago
    Can't say I have ever needed to fumble to find them, my fingers just land on them.
wruza 4y ago
It’s sad that the best space for control keys is occupied by a pretty boring “ “ key, which is 6+ keys wide for some stupid reason.

TacticalCoder 4y ago

Your comment assumes everybody is using a "normal" keyboard. Since then a great many have come up with actually ergonomic keyboards and they virtually all have something in common: modifiers easily reached with the thumbs while the hands are in their home position. No crazy "moving the entire left hand to not hit ctrl with the pinky". That's not ergonomic. At all. If the layout is QWERTY, left hand on asdf, right and on jkl; and the thumbs on modifiers/spacebar. Hitting modifiers do not require hand movement and do not require stretching the finger underneath your other fingers. If anyone's serious about this, consider an actual ergonomic keyboard (Ergodox, Keyboardio, Kinesis, etc.). I picked Japanese keyboards --even though I don't speak japanese-- for several reasons: they're ubiquitous, they can be had with Topre switches (I much prefer Topre than Cherry), the spacebar is tiny so I don't need to distort my thumbs to reach the modifiers, they have lots of modifiers (due to the various input methods japanese has) and, well, the killer... Laptops with japanese keyboards are a thing. Laptops with, say, a Keyboardio keyboard: not so much a thing (unless you carry your keyboard and your laptop of course). I remap the entire keyboard to be basically QWERTY with Hyper and Super in addition to Ctrl/Alt/Meta/Shift. Super is dedicated only* to the window manager and nothing else. Modifier+ijkl sends the actual arrows key code. Works in every single app. Life is good.

BeetleB 4y ago
> No crazy "moving the entire left hand to not hit ctrl with the pinky". That's not ergonomic. At all. Sorry, but ergonomists disagree. Moving your whole hand + arm, as long as you are not twisting your wrist, is in general recommended. I've asked them about keeping the fingers on the home row, and the response has always been: "No good research to support it, nor any to disrecommend it."
- mandw 4y ago
  I think your reply is still based on a standard keyboard. When you get to more ergonomic keyboards you can stay on the homerow and also reach modifiers without moving. While most people do not have an ergonomic keyboard then what you say is likely true and most ergonomists would agree but I think they would also agree that even better is not have to move and use an ergonomic keyboard. That comes with cost and time which is why most still dont use them.

zajio1am 4y ago

> Use both, and use both halves of the keyboard If you're doing a combination like Ctrl F, use the right control key. If you're doing Ctrl-l, use the left control key. Coordinating both hands to press key combos seems much harder than doing that with just one hand. Also, in many cases (unrelated to Emacs), one hand is on mouse, so pressing keyboard shortcuts by one hand is much more useful than depending on both hands.

BeetleB 4y ago
> Coordinating both hands to press key combos seems much harder than doing that with just one hand. Anything is harder until you get used to it :-) I had to make the shift. It wasn't really an option for me. Life improved after I made that shift. > Also, in many cases (unrelated to Emacs), one hand is on mouse While this is unfortunately true, it is still considered unergonomic by most ergonomists (any mouse use is unergonomic if it is continuous). They always recommend using the keyboard if the mouse can be avoided. In a past life I did CAD work with a mouse. Horrible ergonomic issues ensued. Life got a lot better once I switched to programming.

tmtvl 4y ago

I agree with using the correct sided modifier, though I disagree with your statement that using the little finger for pressing CTRL means one insists on using one hand. If I hit right CTRL with the little finger of my right hand there is no way I am hitting, say, A with the same hand. ...though I will admit that I have a bad habit of hitting C-x one-handedly (I have my system configured to the Dvorak layout).

cpleppert 4y ago

>> Use both, and use both halves of the keyboard If you're doing a combination like Ctrl F, use the right control key. If you're doing Ctrl-l, use the left control key. You can also remap both caps lock and enter to control when they are used in combination with other keys. If you press them alone then they can be caps lock(or escape) and enter as normal. Pretty easy to do in karabiner. No RSI issues and you never have to worry about hunting for the ctrl keys with your pinkies on the bottom of the keyboard.

fsckboy 4y ago

> In fact, insisting on using the pinky is a sign you are also insisting on using one hand to enter the key combination no it's not. insisting on using the pinky is an attempt to keep the rest of your touch-typing fingers remaining in place on the home row, which is the main reason using opposite hand shift keys is appealing in the first place. If you're going to take your fingers off the home row, sure, use opposing index fingers for everything.

xmcqdpt2 4y ago

I agree. I think the recommendation to remap control onto caps lock is fundamentally misguided and based on poor typing practice. Many Control bindings are on the left (C-x, C-c) and using caps lock for them (without sticky keys) would be very unergonomic. What I do is remap control, alt and windows key such that control is closest to the space key (like windows, alt, ctrl space ctrl alt windows). Then I can use my thumbs (symmetrically on both sides) to type any control key sequence.