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Suckless comes up every so often and then it goes on to politics about the Suckless people. I really like the idea of Suckless, I wish the people involved with
by jmclnx 4y ago
Suckless comes up every so often and then it goes on to politics about the Suckless people.
I really like the idea of Suckless, I wish the people involved with it directly addresses what to me seems to be a disturbing political slant at their conferences.
Of course, you can ignore that an just use the software. Or better yet look for other similar software created by people that are apolitical.
OpenBSD seems to be a place that does its best to be minimal, and their network setup to me is far better then anything else in Linux or the other BSDs.
- ohCh6zos 4y agoI'm pretty ignorant beyond they're software devs who write stuff I like. I understand if you don't want to bring up their politics here and potentially ruin this thread too, but if it can be done tastefully I'd be curious about their politics.
- jmclnx 4y agoI would just do a search in google :) It was also mentioned by L. Poettering on his twitter account a few years ago. I would like to see this thread stay true to Suckless itself (for a change).
- dpkirchner 4y agoThis all looks bad enough that I'm not sure it's reasonable to separate their "politics" from the people.
- Avshalom 4y agoProbably shouldn't have brought it up unprompted in the first comment on the thread then.
- howinteresting 4y agoI think if a project has Nazis involved in it, that should probably be front and center in any discussion about it.
- torstenvl 4y agoThe evidence seems to be: - One dude once blamed post-WWI treatment of Germany for the rise in nationalism that led to Hitler - They once hiked using torches instead of flashlights. Only they're German so this was near Nuremberg. - They named a mail server "Wolf's Lair." Only they're German so this was in German. Is there a public record anywhere of any of them defending the Holocaust or making anti-Semitic statements?
- Beltalowda 4y ago> They named a mail server "Wolf's Lair." Only they're German so this was in German. A single developer associated with suckles has a private machine with the "wolfsschanze" hostname. This is a big difference with "suckless has a mail server named wolfsschanze".
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- bbbbb5 4y ago> A single developer associated Laslo is the first chair of the board, not just "a single developer".
- kuschku 4y agoWolfsschanze is a word that never occurs accidentally in German language today. If you use it, it's always in a historic or Nazi context.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- howinteresting 4y agoEven the appearance of association with Nazis should set off giant warning flags. "Haha I used a German word that's generally associated with Nazis but isn't technically that, this is a joke I promise" almost always means that the person is a Nazi.
- wpietri 4y agoI searched a bit and this is what I got: https://www.reddit.com/r/systemd/comments/qg1g88/poettering_on_suckless/ https://www.reddit.com/r/systemd/comments/qg1g88/poettering_...
- userbinator 4y agoThe Poettering/systemd crowd are basically mutual enemies of suckless at this point.
- ericbarrett 4y agoHere's the twitter thread that link ultimately leads to: https://twitter.com/pid_eins/status/1113738764797534208 https://twitter.com/pid_eins/status/1113738764797534208
- kuschku 4y agoWell, they're doing torchhikes through the area near Nuremberg on their meetups, they send emails through relays with hostnames like "Wolfsschanze" and devs with official suckless flair post on [website that's basically a clone of HN] complaining about "cultural marxism". Obviously, you still have to interpret that yourself, but these are the facts about the people behind suckless.
- plugin-baby 4y ago> [website that's basically a clone of HN] Which site is that?
- Beltalowda 4y agohttps://lobste.rs/ https://lobste.rs/
- Beltalowda 4y ago> they're doing torchhikes through the area near Nuremberg on their meetups And? > they send emails through relays with hostnames like "Wolfsschanze" A single developer has a private machine named this. There is no plural "they" here. > devs with official suckless flair post on [website that's basically a clone of HN] complaining about "cultural marxism". I believe the flair is kind of "sticky" on Lobsters, so that's probably more of an accident than anything else. Regardless, it's a single developer voicing their personal opinion (the same as the one with the "Wolfsschanze" hostname) and there is no plural "they" here either.
- bitwize 4y ago"Cultural marxism" is a Nazi dogwhistle tho
- Beltalowda 4y agoThe number "88" can be. Norse mythology can be. A shaven head can be. Military boots can be. Lots of things can be, but you need look at the context. The entire point of a "dogwhistle" is that it looks innocent and that it can be easily confused as such, and this automatically means there are also plenty of innocent uses of such things. A "X is a dog-whistle for Y" assertion is meaningless. Plus, "Vaguely right-wing" or even "extreme right-wing" is not identical to "Nazi".
- _dain_ 4y agoMany times, when I see cool software projects are posted here, I go onto the about pages or personal blogs of the authors, to see what else they've made. And what I often see is a lot of absurd, hateful, deranged, wrong, extremist takes on their blogs and twitter feeds. Stuff that I find distasteful or outright horrifying. But they're leftist (or "centrist"), so there's no point complaining about it on HN. I would bet 98% of all open-source software written is by left-wing or apolitical people. Suckless is one of the few islands of (crypto-)right wing outlook. And if that bothers you and you have to make a fuss, go ahead. But maybe ask yourself why you can't be satisfied with a mere 98%.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- djur 4y agoThere are a lot of conservative, liberal, or left-wing people I disagree with. The difference between them and fascists is that they're not threatening to take away my right to disagree with them by violence, nor do they typically suggest that people like me and my friends should be killed or imprisoned for being who we are. This is a fundamental difference that can't be reduced to a "both sides have extremists" analysis.
- blueflow 4y agoWho is threatening to take away any rights? Who is disagreeing using violence? Is this any real problem right now?
- matheusmoreira 4y agoIt very much is. If you live in the USA, please be thankful that you have freedom of expression and a culture that values such rights. This is not the norm in many parts of the world.
- blueflow 4y agoIs this related to suckless?
- imiric 4y ago> Suckless comes up every so often and then it goes on to politics about the Suckless people. You're the only one bringing that up. So congrats on derailing the discussion again.
- weakfortress 4y ago[flagged]
- wkat4242 4y agoIs it really irrelevant? ReiserFS withered when its namesake dev was jailed for murdering his wife. Perhaps he had good ideas but nobody wants to touch it with a 10 foot pole now. Who wants to support a murderer? I also moved away from a major mobile OS since its main dev started a crusade about a competing project. I'll leave the details vague not to get into the discussion. But it gave me an uneasy feeling. Is this the guy I want to maintain critical code on my device? I'm not aware of the suckless people but the idea that the personal lives of the devs don't matter is not something completely irrelevant IMO.
- zzo38computer 4y ago> ReiserFS withered when its namesake dev was jailed for murdering his wife. That is unimportant for the purpose of considering whether or not ReiserFS is any good. Looking on Wikipedia, I can already find one problem though, which is the year 2038 problem. Wikipedia also says "Some directory operations (including unlink(2)) are not synchronous on ReiserFS, which can result in data corruption with applications relying heavily on file-based locksif the machine halts before it has synchronized the disk." So, there are a few problems with ReiserFS (although it might have good ideas too). But if the author murdered his wife, that is the problem with the author, not a problem with ReiserFS. (It is still a problem, but it is a problem with something else.)
- wkat4242 4y agoYeah my point is it's not that black and white. When you use a product, you're supporting the owner, and the brand. In IT it's not as widely used but clothing brands sell their brand more than they sell a product. A lot of brands aren't that great quality but people wear them proudly as a form of expression. Even regardless of the fact that they're made by little kids in a sweatshop half a world away. People judge us by the products we choose. It's a human thing. Pretending this phenomenon doesn't exist doesn't make it go away. It can also clarify what to expect from the authors in the future and what direction they will go into with their product. In that sense it's more of a practical continuity-type of thing. In the case of Reiser, it's kinda hard to lead a thriving product when one is in jail for life. Again I don't know what the deal is with suckless and their people (in fact if Poettering doesn't like them that's a plus for them in my book ;) ), but I don't see the people behind it and the product as two separate things.
- kjs3 4y agoThe OpenBSD folks aren't exactly the most friendly folks, so don't think hanging out there is without drama. But at least they don't go out of their way to justify putting nazi imagery on their homepage.
- somat 4y agoI agree, but openbsd is actually the opposite of a minimal system, I can do more, out of the box, with an openbsd system than any linux distro I have tried, and yet openbsd feels minimal, openbsd manages to make a very rich system in ~ 1GB, a linux distro takes ~5gb and does less and windows takes ~20gb and I have no idea how it can use so much space and do so little.