8 ms·

> and more administrators will be hired to help facilitate student social life. Pre-registration of large (“level 3”) parties has been a thing for a long time.

• shpongled 4y ago
  How is throwing a party during finals a facepalm? I recall that being one of the best times to party...
• cs702 4y ago
  Thank you. I can see how, say, asking students to notify campus police in advance with a simple online form would make sense for large parties. But here we're talking about asking students to submit an application with a known list of attendants two weeks in advance. That doesn't seem right. Something feels really off when I read that for 16,937 students, Stanford lists 2,288 faculty and 15,750 administrators.[a] [a] https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-stanford-guide-to-acceptable-words-elimination-of-harmful-language-initiative-11671489552 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-stanford-guide-to-acceptabl...
  • rainbowzootsuit 4y ago
    The administrators are there as approximately 1:1 hand servants to carry your bags, attend to preparation of meals, and so forth such that you not expend yourself unduly.
    • rainbowzootsuit 4y ago
      /s
    • MerelyMortal 4y ago
      I think you should have included the /s tag. Since they don't actually do all of that stuff, it goes to show that ratio is ridiculous.
      • rainbowzootsuit 4y ago
        You got the /s. I thought it would be implicit.
        • nobody9999 4y ago
          >You got the /s. I thought it would be implicit. As sad as it may be, Poe's Law[0] really is a thing: Poe's law is an adage of Internet culture saying that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, any parody of extreme views can be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of the views being parodied. I've been bitten by that more than once, myself. C'est la vie, eh? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law
    • amluto 4y ago
      Not unless something has changed radically. The administrators are nominally there to do specific things. For example, there might be an administrator whose job is to liase (sorry!) with the students on staff at a group of houses to make sure that they do their jobs and to find out when the university needs to do to help. For example, if there is a plumbing problem, students would tell this administrator and they would get it fixed. Of course, there seem to be a lot of administrators these days if all the articles are right, so perhaps there are now extra ones doing nothing particularly useful or administrators whose job is to make policy.’ There is no administrator that actually helps students with daily tasks.
      • lumost 4y ago
  • ajross 4y ago
    > Something feels really off when I read that for 16,937 students, Stanford lists 2,288 faculty and 15,750 administrators.[a] Major universities aren't primarily about educating undergraduates, and of course graduate students (about half of that student population at Stanford) are essentially "employees" from a economic production perspective. So really it's about 8k kids paying to learn near the activities of 10k researchers and academics, and the 16k administrators are just the staff needed to keep those 10k workers productive. Which... sounds about right to me?
    • cs702 4y ago
      You make a good point... but when I read that one of those 16K administrators has the title of "associate vice provost of inclusion, community and integrative learning," I can't help but feel that things have gotten out of hand. And when I see that the "sticker price" of attending elite US colleges has risen faster than pretty much everything else and is now ~$80K/year, I can't help but be shocked. PS. I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted. Even though I disagree with you, I find your comment valuable.
      • ajross 4y ago
        > but when I read that one of those 16K administrators has the title of [...] That's the same logic you see on Fox Business when guests demand that we defund the entire federal government because something they don't agree with got funded. Whether or not you personally see value isn't really the issue here. You get that, right? Even granting that the post is likely to ineffective and silly (something I'd agree with, FWIW) lots of people at the school value things like inclusion, community and "integrative learning" and want to see the school prioritize it in its staffing decisions. Also post-secondary tuition has been beating general inflation, but lagging many other areas. This link says it's been growing at 4.63% for the last decade, which is less than most real estate markets. The idea of tuition being "out of hand" is mostly just a meme.
        • rayiner 4y ago
          Defending something you concededly can’t defend on the merits with the assertion that nobody should agree with Fox News about anything is a bad tic that won’t work out for you in the long run. It makes it trivially easy to bait mainstream liberals into seeming to embrace wacky ideas. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel.
  • zozbot234 4y ago
    It's not like having a huge party during a frickin' pandemic is a sensible idea in the first place. Really, I have trouble getting what people are complaining about. Nobody likes shelter-in-place all that much, but sometimes it is the right choice.
    • AlbertCory 4y ago
      So you think that when the frickin' pandemic is officially over, it'll be OK again?
    • nl 4y ago
      Is this a pandemic precaution? There guest list two weeks in advance seems useless for that.
  • letitbeirie 4y ago
    That's unreal. One bad year for admissions and the administrators will outnumber the students.
    • thaumasiotes 4y ago
      > One bad year for admissions and the administrators will outnumber the students. Only if a "bad year" is one where the majority of college-age students in the world are precluded from applying to college due to natural disasters or the like. A realistic "bad year" would mean that the same number of students are admitted, but Stanford breaks some informal non-poaching agreements with Harvard / Yale / Princeton, or perhaps admits some students at a lower bar than the administration was hoping.
    • drdec 4y ago
      If I am not mistaken, that has already happened at Yale.
      • nealabq 4y ago
        https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2021/11/10/reluctance-on-the-part-of-its-leadership-to-lead-yales-administration-increases-by-nearly-50-percent/ https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2021/11/10/reluctance-on-the-... seems to say that in 2019 there were about 5900 undergrads and 5000 administrators and managers at Yale. Not quite parity. But https://www.yale.edu/about-yale/yale-facts https://www.yale.edu/about-yale/yale-facts shows somewhat different numbers.
        • drdec 4y ago
          I was remembering this article: https://reason.com/2022/12/01/students-at-yale-faced-mental-health-crises-instead-of-helping-them-yale-forced-them-out/ https://reason.com/2022/12/01/students-at-yale-faced-mental-... But digging in it seems they may have been a little sloppy in their statement.
  • cryptonector 4y ago
    One admin per student, almost. What on earth do they need so many admins for?? What are they doing?
    • mradek 4y ago
      They’re elite bro
    • mattkrause 4y ago
      Big R1 universities do a lot more than organize classes. From memory (the last time this came up) That number includes staff at the Stanford Linear Accelerator (a National Lab, Stanford University Medical Center (which runs two hospitals and a bunch of clinics), Stanford University Press, and all of the research administration needed to manage the (many) grants Stanford gets. These are admin-intensive things: federal contracting involves lots of paperwork, healthcare + insurance is a nightmare too. Plus, many of these involve staff that aren’t students (nurses at the hospital, scientists at SLAC, etc), all of whom still need “normal” admin things like parking, HR, and payroll, so the per-student denominator is a bit misleading.
      • b112 4y ago
        Also all the land and buildings it owns, manages, and rents/leases to others. (eg, they own and lease properties and buildings on El Camino) And they have their own police force, own thousand of houses, and all the infra too (including streets, roads, sewers, etc). Stanford is immensely rich, just considering their land holdings alone...
    • heisenbit 4y ago
      Approving parties although based on their response they still have a staffing gap there.
  • Beltalowda 4y ago
    > Something feels really off when I read that for 16,937 students, Stanford lists 2,288 faculty and 15,750 administrators.[a] Are administrators exclusively for administrative work? Or does this also include people like teaching aides, lab assistants, etc. which aren't exactly "faculty" but also aren't doing, well, administrative work? On the face of it, this number sounds completely bonkers. So bonkers that I suspect that there's some nuance to it and that these "administrators" are doing more than just "administrating". Maybe not, but really needs some more detail than this.
    • nverno 4y ago
      Malcolm Gladwell wrote an article recently [1] about how Princeton's endowment generates more than enough income to fund the entire school forever- no need for tuition. Yet, they still employ hundreds (thousands? I'm guessing given I know USC employs over a hundred full-time fundraisers, then all the fund managers, etc.) of people as part of their fundraising machine. These schools really are bureaucratic monsters. They need to make more money so they can hire more fundraisers so they can make more money etc. 1. https://malcolmgladwell.bulletin.com/princeton-university-is-the-worlds-first-perpetual-motion-machine/ https://malcolmgladwell.bulletin.com/princeton-university-is...
    • TulliusCicero 4y ago
      Even if it's including all support staff that seems like kind of an insane ratio to me.
      • Beltalowda 4y ago
        "Seems like", sure. But a lot of thing "seem" this or that until you actually look at the details and context. Without that, it's essentially meaningless information.
        • brewdad 4y ago
          Sure. How many businesses have more employees than "customers"? It's not a perfect analog but it's not unreasonable to ask "what are we really doing here?" either.
  • malandrew 4y ago
    You can’t find daycare with that ratio.
    • vkou 4y ago
      Which is why daycare is only somewhat unaffordable, while university is completely unaffordable.
• ethbr0 4y ago
  Requiring pre-registering parties is dangerous precisely because it is a control lever and a slippery slope. Students and administration will always disagree. Ergo, any requirement that can be abused by administration eventually will be abused. Exactly as apparently happened here. The only check is to prevent that lever from ever existing. Anarchy has many problems, but its foremost strength is standing in direct opposition to outside control. And that's an unfulfilled and critical need in our modern society, as liberties are bricked up bit by bit. (And before someone tosses it in, we can have the militia vs police end debate some other time, because "a bunch of college kids getting in trouble" is far short of anything that serious to themselves or the surrounding community)
  • pantalaimon 4y ago
    It’s not just about registering parties, if you click the link you will find that the application will have to pass the Party Review Committee where you have to answer questions such as > How the student group will prevent members and guests from bringing in their own alcohol and what they will do if they observe someone bringing in their own alcohol. Also > The party planning course must be completed prior to registering a party. > A party may last a maximum of four hours. Moreover, student groups cannot host or co-host back-to-back parties, pre-parties, concurrent parties, or more than one party per day.
• RhysU 4y ago
  Dude, I went to a large state school. Why the heck would anyone register a party? Why is it the administration's business what the students do after hours? If the cops show up, be respectful and turn down the music. Don't do stupid things near the front door.
• DennisP 4y ago
  When I was in college, we organized parties by getting some booze and opening the door.
  • giardini 4y ago
    Great! So you got all the alky's first!
• II2II 4y ago
  Judging from the policy, it could also be argued the rules are there to protect the student organizers. A lot of people don't seem to realize that regulations surrounding extend beyond age restrictions. Similarly, a lot of people don't realize that insurance coverage is a factor whenever an organization is involved (and, of course, insurance companies will add additional restrictions). If things aren't done properly, the university and the students will be liable. (Note: I am not suggesting the university isn't trying to protect their own interests. I am suggesting they are doing more than protecting their own interests.)
• pantalaimon 4y ago
  Since that directly links to the "Student Alcohol and Other Drugs Policy", that’s also "fun" > All undergraduate student groups and residences may host only alcohol-free parties or events during Admit Weekend. > Beer, wine and packaged pre-mixed alcoholic beverages (e.g. wine coolers, pre-mixed cocktail or seltzer drinks under 20% alcohol by volume, etc.) are the only alcoholic beverages that can be present at on-campus undergraduate student parties > Shots of hard alcohol are prohibited at all parties. > Games and activities that promote high-risk drinking or rapid alcohol consumption are not allowed on campus. > While California has legalized certain recreational cannabis usage among persons aged 21 years or older, cannabis still remains illegal under federal law. […] For the avoidance of doubt, the possession, use, storage, delivery, cultivation, distribution and sale of cannabis in any form is prohibited on all Stanford University property, including university-owned and leased buildings, housing and parking lots. Cannabis is also not permitted at university events or while conducting university business.
  • amluto 4y ago
    This stuff is not at all new. Also, consider: > All undergraduate student groups and residences may host only alcohol-free parties or events during Admit Weekend. Not sure what point you’re trying to make. Underage Stanford students getting drunk is one thing (and one can quite reasonably debate the merits of the university trying to prevent it, trying to make it safer when it happens, etc m). Stanford students supplying alcohol that gets high school students drunk is another issue entirely. When I was an undergrad, we took this extremely seriously. You do not drink with the prospective students. You do not host a party where you might mistake a prospective freshman for a Stanford student. Even ignoring safety and liability, the purpose of going to a school like Stanford is not to get drunk. The prospective freshman have about 48 hours to learn what Stanford has to offer, and doing so drunk or hung over benefits no one. Here’s an article about it. This policy apparently dates to 2001: https://stanforddaily.com/2012/05/03/students-reflect-on-admit-weekend-alcohol-policy/ https://stanforddaily.com/2012/05/03/students-reflect-on-adm... (Other groups were surely less responsible.)
• pantalaimon 4y ago
  > I imagine a single administrator could keep up with the entire workload. From the link you shared: - The Party Review Committee will meet Tuesday each week during the Autumn, Winter and Spring quarters to review party requests submitted via CardinalEngage. - The Party Review Committee will consist of representation from the following units/departments including, but is not limited to: - Office of Substance Use Programs, Education & Resources (SUPER) - Office of Student Engagement (OSE) - Residential Education (ResEd) - Fraternity and Sorority Life (FSL) - Residential & Dining Enterprises: Housing Operations (R&DE) - Stanford University Department of Public Safety (SUDPS) - Stanford University Fire Marshal’s Office (SUFMO)
  • henrikschroder 4y ago
    That sounds like a fun party! Have they registered their meetings with themselves? Jesus Christ. Kill it with fire before it spreads!
    • sceadu 4y ago
      Too late. Need a permit for the fire.
• TulliusCicero 4y ago
  This absolutely seems crazy to me. College students are adults, why the fuck is the college managing what they do off campus at all? You go to school for education, not for the school to manage your entire life. None of us would be okay with our employer telling us when and how we can have parties at our own homes, why is it fine for a school to do? That Americans have become increasingly okay with colleges being surrogate parents for literal adults is just bizarre.
  • wasabi991011 4y ago
    Well stated. In 2021, my college cancelled my study abroad semester for winter 2022 due to "covid". (Reminder that this is after 2 doses of the vaccine, and the semester would have almost been at the time of the booster for me.) No way to decide our own risk tolerance to travelling, just a complete ban because the college knows better than it's students.
  • amluto 4y ago
    > why the fuck is the college managing what they do off campus at all? It’s not. Stanford’s campus is huge, and almost all undergrads live on it. The parties in question were generally held on campus, often in university-owned and managed buildings and often on the front lawns. The university had insurance (I don’t remember the precise details). And, to be clear, the university was generally fairly supportive. You could host a party in university space. You could coordinate with student who were not part of the hosting group to throw genuinely interesting parties. You were allowed to serve alcohol on university property under a fairly uniform set of rules, and guests knew what to expect. If the police showed up, the hosts wouldn’t get in trouble if they followed the rules. If an out of control guest set of the fire alarm, the host would generally be treated quite favorably. If a guest was out of control and the host needed to call the police or medical services, they would come and not bust the host. (And hosts were strongly encouraged to send excessively drunk people seek medical care if needed.) Part of the point of preregistration was to make sure that everyone was prepared. If you’re going to buy wristbands, post flyers, etc, filling out a quick web form is not a great hardship. Of course there were obnoxious parts of the policies, but overall I think the university did fairly well here.
  • 4y ago
• nobody9999 4y ago
  >Pre-registration of large (“level 3”) parties has been a thing for a long time. But when I was there, one pre-registered a party, one did so online, and I imagine a single administrator could keep up with the entire workload. As far as "level 3" is concerned, are you referring to this scale[0]? Festivity Level 1: Your guests are chatting amiably with each other, admiring your Christmas-tree ornaments, singing carols around the upright piano, sipping at their drinks and nibbling hors d'oeuvres. Festivity Level 2: Your guests are talking loudly -- sometimes to each other, and sometimes to nobody at all, rearranging your Christmas-tree ornaments, singing "i gotta be me" around the upright piano, gulping their drinks and wolfing down hors d'oeuvres. Festivity Level 3: Your guests are arguing violently with inanimate objects, singing "i can't get no satisfaction," gulping down other peoples' drinks, wolfing down Christmas tree ornaments and placing hors d'oeuvres in the upright piano to see what happens when the little hammers strike. Festivity Level 4: Your guests, hors d'oeuvres smeared all over their naked bodies are performing a ritual dance around the burning Christmas tree. The piano is missing. You want to keep your party somewhere around level 3, unless you rent your home and own Firearms, in which case you can go to level 4. The best way to get to level 3 is egg-nog. [0] https://motd.ambians.com/quotes.php/name/freebsd_fortunes/toc_id/1-0-2/s/49 https://motd.ambians.com/quotes.php/name/freebsd_fortunes/to...
  • amluto 4y ago
    No. IIRC level 3 meant open to the whole campus. The party rules varied depending on who was invited.
• lumb63 4y ago
  As someone who went to a large state school, this post blows my mind. I can’t imagine this level of restraint around parties. My fraternity and half a dozen other groups would host parties with 2-300 people each weekend. Most groups hosting these large parties had practices in place to ensure everyone was safe (e.g. sober drivers, cutting people off who were too intoxicated, etc.). Attendance was more valuable when events conflicted because it became a social status symbol. That being said, prominent groups coordinated with each other. I also disagree with characterizing throwing a party during finals as a “facepalm”. My friend group always prioritized studying and grades, and I believe others should as well. I believe to a greater extent that they should be given the freedom to make mistakes, or have fun if they believe themselves able to manage both their studies and their social life. I doubt that diligent campus security could do a better job than responsible and respectful hosts and friends. Giving students resources to host safe parties would be more effective since they are closer to the source of issues and can stop small issues before they become bigger issues. The same resources could encourage other safe practices like not over-imbibing, traveling with trusted friends, etc., and would keep students safer than any campus security could, while giving students more freedom and responsibility. I base this assessment in part off of personal experience. At my school one year, a girl went to a frat party with her friend, and got too drunk. The fraternity made sure she and her friend had a ride home. Her friend made sure she got to her dorm room safe. After getting home, she wandered out of her building to the nearby fire department, which neighbors the famous police office. She fell asleep in front of the bay door and was run over and killed by a firefighter responding to a call who did not see her. This story demonstrates 1) the effort that other students made to ensure safety and 2) the failure of campus security to catch a massive safety issue right under their noses. I feel terrible for the girl and her family. Their experience was tragic and heartbreaking. That tragedy resulted does not negate the fact that all involved did everything they could (shy of not having the party) to ensure safety and campus security could not have done anything more without tucking her in to bed and watching her all night, which I find unreasonable. As you said, parties can be dangerous. Hosts and attendees being cautious and responsible will go much further than more vigilant campus security.
  • amluto 4y ago
    To be clear, campus security didn’t actually hang out and watch parties. The hosts were supposed to manage their own parties (within boundaries set by the university). And I’m not saying Stanford’s policies were perfect or even close. But I do think they did a decent job of letting students host parties on campus with keeping a degree of awareness of what happened on campus. Stanford was also known for allowing students to drink with friends in their own rooms, in undergrad dorms, with the doors open. It was quite strongly discouraged to close the doors when drinking. These weren’t “parties” for these purposes. I think this was an excellent policy — it encouraged being social, it helped keep everyone safe, and it steered undergrad drinking in a more mature and safer direction. Sadly, IMO, this is no longer the case: https://stanforddaily.com/2021/09/20/from-the-community-stanfords-new-alcohol-policy-misses-the-mark/ https://stanforddaily.com/2021/09/20/from-the-community-stan... I don’t know how the actual bureaucracy and effects of the policies have changed since I was there.