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California is a great state in many ways, but it'd be a stretch to say it's even half assed a solution to its housing problem: they've quarter assed it at most.

California is a great state in many ways, but it'd be a stretch to say it's even half assed a solution to its housing problem: they've quarter assed it at most. And it does someone no good for a state to be great in many ways if they can't afford to live there. The situation has been dire for some time, but all they do are small incremental steps towards building more housing, it's nowhere close to what's necessary. Unfortunately, the NIMBY, anti-housing sentiment is very strong.

jeffbee 4y ago
California has not even ¼-assed it. The governor stated in 2018 that we were short 3.5 million homes, which might be approximately correct or at least in the ballpark, and as a state we were going to build them by 2025. That pace should have been 2 million homes by now, but only about 350k units were actually built.
- __MatrixMan__ 4y ago
  So that's... 1/10... Deciassed?
  - verst 4y ago
    More like deciassed :)
    - __MatrixMan__ 4y ago
      I didn't try to 1984 you there, I just caught it independently :)
- jmspring 4y ago
  Where does one build 3.5 million houses? The housing needs to be where jobs / etc, are. It should also be where resources are. A good deal of the state has water issues regularly; additional part of the state can't keep the power on due to - heat waves, fires, over use, winds, cats farting. The rural county I live in has open jobs, but a sizeable chunk of the work force is either seasonal (logging, etc) then coast on unemployment for the off season or don't actually want to work. Those that do, are flaky as all get go. (My partner and I own a small business in the county). What does this have to do with housing? Covid and growth of a near by metro area (about an hour away) have pushed people to buying up what was previously cheap (yet affordable) housing. Small cabins that would be going for ~75k or a bit more 7 years ago are pushing over $200k now. The local community college as well as natural disasters further puts pressure on the housing situation. How about building more? Well, insuring housing when large fires have come through? Hard to come by. Building costs have also gone through the roof. Housing is needed in this particular county (and surrounding) but isn't being built. Where does housing for 3.5 million get built?
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Where does one build 3.5 million houses? One doesn't. One builds 3.5 million homes, mostly apartments.
    - yucky 4y ago
      Exactly. Soviet style apartment cities are on the menu. Highly efficient and affordable.
      - jmspring 4y ago
        Doesn’t answer the question about infrastructure which California is well known to be lacking.
        vaidhy 4y ago
        So, there can be no solution? Why would you not assume that as density increases, the amenities would also get better? I find this lack of optimism very dissonant and just divisive.
        dragonwriter 4y ago
        > Doesn’t answer the question about infrastructure which California is well known to be lacking What infrastructure do you imagine California to be lacking that would be relevant here?
        jmspring 4y ago
        Water for one. Multiple towns in both northern and southern CA had drought / water issues. Mendocino in the north, multiple places in the south.
        jeffbee 4y ago
        I don't think anyone is proposing to installed another 8 million people in Mendocino. Places like San Francisco and the East Bay have tons of water rights because they were originally outfitted for tens of millions of residents before being suddenly down-zoned around 1970. The East Bay Municipal Utilities District currently serves less demand for water than it did in 1980 because of systemic efficiency improvements, despite the fact that the served population increased 50% since then. Also, there is the small fact that apartment dwellers use a tiny fraction of the water of people who live in detached houses. In short, there is plenty of water in various major metropolitan areas.
22289d 4y ago
It's not a problem to everyone. For example, it's not a problem to many homeowners that the value of their homes keep going up and to the right. Living in California is expensive, in more ways than just housing. Not everyone can afford it. Just like not everyone can afford a new BMW. In my corner of the state, people who increasingly cannot afford to live here are noisy. I mostly don't engage because I'm aware that I will simply receive vitriol and anger for sharing my views. But quietly, I'm ok with it. They can move if they want to. I love it here and having fewer people on the fringes of society as neighbors isn't really the worst outcome to me. Edit: and this why I don't engage. I'm out. Merry Christmas everyone.
- kneebonian 4y ago
  So if people keep leaving then the property values go down. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it isn't going to happen. Imagine property values start plunging, people can't leave, they just start abandoning houses, soon you get vast swathes of abandoned houses which lead to increased crime and urban decay. Decades from now people will shake their heads and talk about the golden days of California and the problems with the silicon belt.
  - 22289d 4y ago
    You're missing why people want to live here in the first place. It's one of the most beautiful places in the world, with one of the best year-round climates in the world. If prices start going down, people will move here. For those reasons.
  - fundad 4y ago
    You’ve described most of the country outside of job centers. There’s very little rural housing available and people crowd into job centers and drive up costs. Unless you own property or make a high salary, housing is unaffordable in all 50 states.
- greesil 4y ago
  Do you support building more housing? Near your home?
skrtskrt 4y ago
Well they did just pass a bunch of laws last year to upzone the whole state, crush NIMBY zoning BS and lower permitting requirements for dense development near transit stops. Builder’s remedy is already being applied against NIMBY communities like Santa Monica and Redondo beach, no take backs. It takes time to build the homes and see the impact but it’s hard to say that they’re not moving strongly in the right direction. Sure they’re doing it 20-30 years later than they should have but they’re certainly not sitting on their hands right now. Newsome knows he needs to show that he really addressed the massive headline problem that everyone hears about California before he can have a serious crack at the presidency, or else he’s never going to overcome the “California bad because mismanaged by Democrats”
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  > Well they did just pass a bunch of laws last year to upzone the whole state Have you seen the particulars of that law that upzoned the state? It's actually extremely weak: "* Benefits homeowners NOT institutional investors. Recent amendments require a local agency to impose an owner occupancy requirement as a condition of a homeowner receiving a ministerial lot split. This bill also prohibits the development of small subdivisions and prohibits ministerial lot splits on adjacent parcels by the same individual to prevent investor speculation. In fact, allowing for more neighborhood scale housing in California’s communities actually curbs the market power of institutional investors. SB 9 prevents profiteers from evicting or displacing tenants by excluding properties where a tenant has resided in the past three years." Translation: will be used only sparingly, because it's illegal to do it with a standard case of a corporation replacing existing housing with more housing. How many owner occupiers are interested in this and can afford this kind of redevelopment? "Respects local control. Homeowners must comply with local zoning requirements when developing a duplex (height, floor area ratios, lot coverage etc.) as long as they do not physically preclude a lot split or duplex. This bill also allows locals to require a percolation test for any duplex proposed to be on septic tanks." Translation: still lets local NIMBYs restrict density. "It takes time to build the homes and see the impact but it’s hard to say that they’re not moving strongly in the right direction." It's the right direction yes, but as you say, it's the kind of thing that should've been the response to the much weaker housing crisis of 20-30 years ago, not the much more serious one now.
weakfortress 4y ago
California is a great state? I guess the mass exodus over the last several years is just simply people leaving in excitement. California is not great. It hasnt been great for a long time. It's hostile to anyone who is not the elite while also mascarading as a progressive paradise. The problem with people leaving is they export the same politics that got California to it's position as a working class hostile state. In the most common states, Oregon, Nevada, and Texas Californians are looked at with great disdain. It tells you something, at least, when even a left-leaning state like Oregon doesn't want you.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  Dude, as someone who left, California is a great state and I never would have left if I could afford to live there. Only a small portion of Oregon is left leaning, and people who feel they are being squeezed out by Californians of course are going to feel antagonistic and try to justify that antagonism in their heads as more than just fear.
  - weakfortress 4y ago
    I live in one of those states. I have watched my state go from an alright place with affordable housing, good liberal laws, etc to a complete shit show in the last decade. Where I am is beginning to feel more like California every single day. Dramatically more taxes, far more expensive houses, far worse roads, increasing stretched police forces, less personal rights, etc. It's a nightmare. People like me aren't antagonistic because people moved here. We're antagonistic because the same shit that brought you the absurd taxes, expensive houses, poor roads, terrible policing, overbearing politics, etc is being exported en masse by these very same people. The average person living here cannot afford to live here because, according to my realtor friend, majority of home purchases come from Californians and they don't just buy one. Ignoring all else the income asymmetry is causing strife to people who cannot afford to live when the chickens come home to roost. I live where I live and travel to California so often I more or less live there for several days a week. The only thing great about California is the weather. It's simple, assimilate or stay over there. You left California for a reason - why bring the garbage to every other state? Your voting is the reason California is a dumpster fire in almost every major metro. Walking down Santa Monica, or almost anywhere in San Francisco smells like human waste. You cannot tell me California is "nice". At least the Californians coming here aren't exporting the smell.

jeffbee 4y ago

California has not even ¼-assed it. The governor stated in 2018 that we were short 3.5 million homes, which might be approximately correct or at least in the ballpark, and as a state we were going to build them by 2025. That pace should have been 2 million homes by now, but only about 350k units were actually built.

__MatrixMan__ 4y ago
So that's... 1/10... Deciassed?
- verst 4y ago
  More like deciassed :)
  - __MatrixMan__ 4y ago
    I didn't try to 1984 you there, I just caught it independently :)
jmspring 4y ago
Where does one build 3.5 million houses? The housing needs to be where jobs / etc, are. It should also be where resources are. A good deal of the state has water issues regularly; additional part of the state can't keep the power on due to - heat waves, fires, over use, winds, cats farting. The rural county I live in has open jobs, but a sizeable chunk of the work force is either seasonal (logging, etc) then coast on unemployment for the off season or don't actually want to work. Those that do, are flaky as all get go. (My partner and I own a small business in the county). What does this have to do with housing? Covid and growth of a near by metro area (about an hour away) have pushed people to buying up what was previously cheap (yet affordable) housing. Small cabins that would be going for ~75k or a bit more 7 years ago are pushing over $200k now. The local community college as well as natural disasters further puts pressure on the housing situation. How about building more? Well, insuring housing when large fires have come through? Hard to come by. Building costs have also gone through the roof. Housing is needed in this particular county (and surrounding) but isn't being built. Where does housing for 3.5 million get built?
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Where does one build 3.5 million houses? One doesn't. One builds 3.5 million homes, mostly apartments.
  - yucky 4y ago
    Exactly. Soviet style apartment cities are on the menu. Highly efficient and affordable.
    - jmspring 4y ago
      Doesn’t answer the question about infrastructure which California is well known to be lacking.
      - vaidhy 4y ago
        So, there can be no solution? Why would you not assume that as density increases, the amenities would also get better? I find this lack of optimism very dissonant and just divisive.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > Doesn’t answer the question about infrastructure which California is well known to be lacking What infrastructure do you imagine California to be lacking that would be relevant here?
        jmspring 4y ago
        Water for one. Multiple towns in both northern and southern CA had drought / water issues. Mendocino in the north, multiple places in the south.
        jeffbee 4y ago
        I don't think anyone is proposing to installed another 8 million people in Mendocino. Places like San Francisco and the East Bay have tons of water rights because they were originally outfitted for tens of millions of residents before being suddenly down-zoned around 1970. The East Bay Municipal Utilities District currently serves less demand for water than it did in 1980 because of systemic efficiency improvements, despite the fact that the served population increased 50% since then. Also, there is the small fact that apartment dwellers use a tiny fraction of the water of people who live in detached houses. In short, there is plenty of water in various major metropolitan areas.

22289d 4y ago

It's not a problem to everyone. For example, it's not a problem to many homeowners that the value of their homes keep going up and to the right. Living in California is expensive, in more ways than just housing. Not everyone can afford it. Just like not everyone can afford a new BMW. In my corner of the state, people who increasingly cannot afford to live here are noisy. I mostly don't engage because I'm aware that I will simply receive vitriol and anger for sharing my views. But quietly, I'm ok with it. They can move if they want to. I love it here and having fewer people on the fringes of society as neighbors isn't really the worst outcome to me. Edit: and this why I don't engage. I'm out. Merry Christmas everyone.

kneebonian 4y ago
So if people keep leaving then the property values go down. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it isn't going to happen. Imagine property values start plunging, people can't leave, they just start abandoning houses, soon you get vast swathes of abandoned houses which lead to increased crime and urban decay. Decades from now people will shake their heads and talk about the golden days of California and the problems with the silicon belt.
- 22289d 4y ago
  You're missing why people want to live here in the first place. It's one of the most beautiful places in the world, with one of the best year-round climates in the world. If prices start going down, people will move here. For those reasons.
- fundad 4y ago
  You’ve described most of the country outside of job centers. There’s very little rural housing available and people crowd into job centers and drive up costs. Unless you own property or make a high salary, housing is unaffordable in all 50 states.
greesil 4y ago
Do you support building more housing? Near your home?

skrtskrt 4y ago

Well they did just pass a bunch of laws last year to upzone the whole state, crush NIMBY zoning BS and lower permitting requirements for dense development near transit stops. Builder’s remedy is already being applied against NIMBY communities like Santa Monica and Redondo beach, no take backs. It takes time to build the homes and see the impact but it’s hard to say that they’re not moving strongly in the right direction. Sure they’re doing it 20-30 years later than they should have but they’re certainly not sitting on their hands right now. Newsome knows he needs to show that he really addressed the massive headline problem that everyone hears about California before he can have a serious crack at the presidency, or else he’s never going to overcome the “California bad because mismanaged by Democrats”

TulliusCicero 4y ago
> Well they did just pass a bunch of laws last year to upzone the whole state Have you seen the particulars of that law that upzoned the state? It's actually extremely weak: "* Benefits homeowners NOT institutional investors. Recent amendments require a local agency to impose an owner occupancy requirement as a condition of a homeowner receiving a ministerial lot split. This bill also prohibits the development of small subdivisions and prohibits ministerial lot splits on adjacent parcels by the same individual to prevent investor speculation. In fact, allowing for more neighborhood scale housing in California’s communities actually curbs the market power of institutional investors. SB 9 prevents profiteers from evicting or displacing tenants by excluding properties where a tenant has resided in the past three years." Translation: will be used only sparingly, because it's illegal to do it with a standard case of a corporation replacing existing housing with more housing. How many owner occupiers are interested in this and can afford this kind of redevelopment? "Respects local control. Homeowners must comply with local zoning requirements when developing a duplex (height, floor area ratios, lot coverage etc.) as long as they do not physically preclude a lot split or duplex. This bill also allows locals to require a percolation test for any duplex proposed to be on septic tanks." Translation: still lets local NIMBYs restrict density. "It takes time to build the homes and see the impact but it’s hard to say that they’re not moving strongly in the right direction." It's the right direction yes, but as you say, it's the kind of thing that should've been the response to the much weaker housing crisis of 20-30 years ago, not the much more serious one now.

weakfortress 4y ago

California is a great state? I guess the mass exodus over the last several years is just simply people leaving in excitement. California is not great. It hasnt been great for a long time. It's hostile to anyone who is not the elite while also mascarading as a progressive paradise. The problem with people leaving is they export the same politics that got California to it's position as a working class hostile state. In the most common states, Oregon, Nevada, and Texas Californians are looked at with great disdain. It tells you something, at least, when even a left-leaning state like Oregon doesn't want you.

ROTMetro 4y ago
Dude, as someone who left, California is a great state and I never would have left if I could afford to live there. Only a small portion of Oregon is left leaning, and people who feel they are being squeezed out by Californians of course are going to feel antagonistic and try to justify that antagonism in their heads as more than just fear.
- weakfortress 4y ago
  I live in one of those states. I have watched my state go from an alright place with affordable housing, good liberal laws, etc to a complete shit show in the last decade. Where I am is beginning to feel more like California every single day. Dramatically more taxes, far more expensive houses, far worse roads, increasing stretched police forces, less personal rights, etc. It's a nightmare. People like me aren't antagonistic because people moved here. We're antagonistic because the same shit that brought you the absurd taxes, expensive houses, poor roads, terrible policing, overbearing politics, etc is being exported en masse by these very same people. The average person living here cannot afford to live here because, according to my realtor friend, majority of home purchases come from Californians and they don't just buy one. Ignoring all else the income asymmetry is causing strife to people who cannot afford to live when the chickens come home to roost. I live where I live and travel to California so often I more or less live there for several days a week. The only thing great about California is the weather. It's simple, assimilate or stay over there. You left California for a reason - why bring the garbage to every other state? Your voting is the reason California is a dumpster fire in almost every major metro. Walking down Santa Monica, or almost anywhere in San Francisco smells like human waste. You cannot tell me California is "nice". At least the Californians coming here aren't exporting the smell.