5 ms·

Ask HN: Racism in London

37 points by naissa 4y ago

I traveled to London this week and I’ve been going to restaurants. When people see me (I’m black), they always say the restaurant is booked. Finally, after a few minutes I came back and spoke to a black woman who was working there and asked for a seat. She gave me a seat right away. According to her, the restaurant was not booked. There was plenty of space. I don’t know what to make of this. Has someone had a similar experience?

binarymax 4y ago
London is a huge diverse city. What area of London are you having trouble? I’m not black, but lived in black communities there. You may have more luck in East or South London areas.
- zemvpferreira 4y ago
  If that's true it is a shameful thing. Come to Lisbon instead. We're not even that civilised but you certainly won't have trouble being served anywhere.
  - okdood64 4y ago
    > We're not even that civilised Elaborate?
    - zemvpferreira 4y ago
      We don't chew with our mouthes open and know how to use cutlery but matter of fact Lisbon is Europe's backwater and racism/sexism/violence/abuse are still very much present in daily life to a degree other Western European nations have long left behind. But we're not as openly bigoted as Londoners apparently - or at least friendlier about it. Maybe we're missing the superiority complex.
solardev 4y ago
I don't know how to help, but just wanted to say... sorry you had that experience =/ Nobody should. Anywhere, really, but especially in a supposedly metropolitan city like London.
zeristor 4y ago
That sounds damn rude of them, Citizen’s Advice has a few pointers about entertainment and services: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/discrimination-because-of-race-religion-or-belief/discrimination-because-of-race/ https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discriminat... I thought most of the racists had moved to Herefordshire.
stickyricky 4y ago
This is tangential to your question. Mostly because all I can do is sympathize and wish you the best. But I did not care for London. Edinburgh is the friendliest place I've visited in the UK if you have the flexibility to spend your vacation elsewhere.
dagmx 4y ago
I had this experience as an Indian there (but also in the US and Canada so not exclusive to London). In fact, our experience was almost identical in a restaurant in Windsor, and after we were allowed in, we were sat in the worst spot behind a door, not allowed to use a different table and the waiter outright ignored us. A white family came and were given a great table, and attended to. All other tables were empty. A few things helped: 1. Calling them out on it. If you have the energy and you feel it’s worth it, it’s worth escalating to the manager. Sometimes I’ve met racist managers too but in most cases they apologize, chalk it up to a misunderstanding and give a discount. In the case of the Windsor restaurant the manager told us to leave when we mentioned how badly we were treated , which we reported and were told that they had a history of it. But in other cases it’s worked out well. 2. I hate doing it, but I had to reflect on my own appearance. I had naturally wild curly hair, and a beard. This was neat for my hair type but not by straight hair standards (hair based racism is a big thing). Even though I was well dressed, a lot of people would look at me when I was single and distance themselves or not allow me in. So if I was going some place and I didn’t want to deal with it, I’d straighten my hair and try and find a female friend to go with me. This is also the case at border crossings. I’d get pulled aside for questioning or security checks more often, but when I travel with my wife or female friends, I’d always get passed through. There’s a lot of distrust for what people think are “scruffy, lone men” even if the reality is that they’re comparing to their racist aesthetic senses. 3. Find someone from your demographic or closer to it, like you did at this place. When we moved to the UK as a kid, my mum would do that and it took me a while to understand why. It was because she was initially treated poorly by many of the non-Indian staff and finding an Indian person there helped because they’d understand and help out. 4. Use humour. When I first moved to Canada I was greeted by a lot of racism. People outright refused to shake my hand. I found making jokes about their behaviour towards me , or the situation as a whole, either made them feel foolish or broke the ice enough that they felt momentarily endeared enough to see past their biases. Dealing with day to day racism as an individual from other individuals is a form of social engineering. I try and understand their headspace and work around it. In most cases these people aren’t actively trying to be racist , but they’re also very unaware about what they’re doing. Those are the ones you can work around. The ones who are actively participating are the ones I move on from because they often get violent.
- 4y ago
lazybreather 4y ago
A bit off-topic, but something unique to India is reverse-racism, if I can call it that. Many a times, me and friends (mostly all male) try to enter a decent restaurant/pub only to be shown away saying its all booked for the evening. We could clearly see that was not the case. Even if stag entry is generally allowed at those places. But they happily welcome foreigners (of all kinds) right after they deny us. We Indians are an amusing bunch!
- edgyquant 4y ago
  Seems like more of a class thing right? The non-natives are likely travelers and people who travel to other countries frivolously tend to have more money.
- filoleg 4y ago
  That's basically kind of how it is with a lot of night clubs in the US as well, just with a different demographic criteria (i.e., not race). If you come as a group of guys (or, most of the time, even as a mixed men/women group), you will be waiting in a long line at the entrance before you get in. Oftentimes, 45+ min wait, if the club is busy that night and popular. But if you come as a group of attractive women (or, sometimes, a mixed group of attractive women and some guys, but with no more guys than women), clubs will often take you out of the massive line and let you through without almost any wait at all. Not blaming the clubs for doing this, it kinda makes sense for their business, given the establishment type, so it doesn't feel that wrong (but i understand it is just my personal subjective take, and is very debatable). Doing it by race (or foreigner/non-foreigner designation) though, like what your comment had described, for some reason to me feels actually awful and wrong to do though.
- konaraddi 4y ago
  If this was the norm in India then the food service business would collapse because there are far far more Indians than foreigners even in most or all of the touristy areas. There’s likely a more plausible explanation for you and your guy friends being denied (e.g. visiting a restaurant in a touristy area that prefers foreigners to take advantage of the diff in purchasing power by charging more or expecting more in tips). > We Indians are an amusing bunch! There’s some irony in ending your comment with a slightly racist remark. Imagine if one said, “Them <insert another race> are an amusing bunch!” A bit racist isn’t it? I read a quote on HN that stuck with me and articulates why some Indians will say something self-hating (even when it’s off-topic, as you explicitly acknowledged in the first sentence of your comment): “For many Indians, self-flagellation is a sign of their intellectual arrival.” Perhaps an artifact of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_mentality https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_mentality
deleted 4y ago
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jerz 4y ago
Probably not race related. Ever since Brexit/Covid restaurants are understaffed. We regularly go in to empty restaurants and get told they’re fully booked. If it’s a chain place, especially, the staff just don’t care enough to “fit you in”.
- zarzavat 4y ago
  This is the correct answer. It’s because of post-Brexit staffing issues. Just because there’s a table it doesn’t mean there’s enough front-of-house or back-of-house staff to serve it. See this recent article: https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/dec/04/staff-shortages-see-uk-restaurants-struggle-to-cope-with-christmas-season https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/dec/04/staff-shortages... Britain is not racist per se, it’s xenophobic. For years before Brexit the group that drew the most ire were white Eastern Europeans. Being African American might even be an asset as there’s a bit of a stigma against white Americans.
benjaminwootton 4y ago
I can’t speak to your experience, but London is generally an extremely diverse and tolerant city. As a white British family, we often get turned away from half empty restaurants too. If you turn up at 12 noon, they will hold the table even if it isn’t booked till 1.30 pm. I wonder how much revenue they leak from this as it seems so obvious to let you take the table on a time limit but they never offer. I think some are also still running under capacity post Covid and with staffing issues.
- nuc1e0n 4y ago
  Restaurants also can have a number of tables pre-allocated to third party companies on the assumption someone can book them though that third party. Similar to this, I once tried to stay in a hotel by just showing up to the reception desk. They told me they were fully booked. I then found the same hotel on a booking website, booked it on there, showed the hotel my now 'reserved' room then stayed at the hotel the same night.
deleted 4y ago
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hotz 4y ago
Is this not something more appropriate for a facebook post or tweet instead of HN...
- miiiiiike 4y ago
  I actually think this is a valid question. I think the post belongs here because a lot of us run companies that have or will have business that requires us to travel to London.
quasarsunnix 4y ago
Grew up in London and had a black colleague tell me a very similar story. This would have been about 2017 I think. I know a lot of people will tell you it's not possible, etc., but as a Londoner I know there's a lot of unspoken racism in the city, especially in the east-end, where I grew up.
- nuc1e0n 4y ago
  Obviously most places have their racists but I'd say the east-end of London is one of the least racist places anywhere in the world. People come to live there from all over. When visiting someplace unfamiliar it's easy to see any treatment you get that's not to your liking as a personal attack of some kind. Maybe those people are just bastards to everyone.
randomcarbloke 4y ago
Unlikely it's race related, you could have asked them why though. It's one of the most culturally diverse cities on earth, that's not to say we don't have racists...we obviously do but social etiquette dictates that you keep that shit to yourself...doubly so if in the service industry. As an aside not London related but culturally significant - during WWII American GIs needed to be warned that black soldiers would be treated equal to white, when US commanders demanded a segregated bar in the town of Bamber Bridge, all three pubs in the town reportedly posted "Black Troops Only" signs. Please give my city another chance.
LandR 4y ago
I was in a restaurant a couple months ago. The group in front of us asked for a table for three. They got turned away and told nothing available. Then we went up and I joked that we wanted a table for three, but I heard they had none... She turned around, had a look around and gave us a table. I have no idea what the people in front of us did wrong. They seemed pleasant and polite. But everyone involved was white, so I wouldn't necessarily take your issue as racist.
miiiiiike 4y ago
Yep, had a few experiences. I know a white guy from America who had a Polish last name. When we were in London we never had any problems until he had to show his passport. After that, there was a better than even chance that people would start being rude to him. There was "Go Home Polish Vermin" graffiti (You know those cute red phone booths? Ever look in one?) and some of the news channels had a certain sentiment. Unrelated, related story. We got into town on a bank holiday and almost everything was closed. We saw a guy come out of a door and walk towards us. We asked if he knew where we could get breakfast and he said "Nope. Cheers Mate!" We were at a four-way stop and had to pick a direction. We ended up walking in the direction that the guy had come from.. And it turned out he had just walked out of a restaurant serving breakfast. I've understood "Cheers Mate" to mean "Fuck Off" since then. Back to the story. The third time he got an "OHHHHH, POOOOLISH!" from someone looking at his passport, he snatched it from the guy, smiled, and said "Nope. American. Cheers Mate." and walked in. After the trip he reflected on how some of his UK colleagues and investors had treated him over the years. He ended up changing his name. You can't change your skin color. Prejudice is out there and there was always that weird moment of "Is this really happening or are we imagining it?" Having it be subtle enough that you're left wondering, that was the most fucked up part. So I know what you mean. Give 'em a "Cheers Mate." next time it happens.
- _Wintermute 4y ago
  As someone who has lived in the UK for 25 years with a Polish surname, I've never experienced this at all. It's more likely due to someone with an American accent asking strangers questions, people immediately think loud tourist and stay away.
  - cassianoleal 4y ago
    GP's story seems highly unlikely, or at least is missing crucial details. I've lived in London for the last 8 years, and a total of around 11. I'm neither white nor European, let alone British. I have many friends, Polish, Turkish, British of various ethnicities, Africans from a few different countries, Middle Easterners, Americans (mostly South and Central), you name it.... I have never heard of any of them being treated in such a way. Also, why was this person flaunting a passport around London? The only times I had mine on me were when coming in or out of the country. Then, he decides to change his name because of how "some of his UK colleagues and investors had treated him over the years"? Assuming the story is true, I somehow don't think the problem has ever been his name, surname, physical appearance or passport. I don't want to assume a lie but there are definitely important pieces missing.
ac50hz 4y ago
I would always recommend taking some photos, if possible and if relevant, and leave a review concerning, and asking, about their apparent reservation policy. London can be great. It can also be incredibly disappointing when you’re confronted by the isms that we had expected to have been excised.
ChildOfChaos 4y ago
Are you sure it is anything to do with Racism? I mean you have no evidence of that and it's a large assumption on your part? London has a huge black community and non-white residents, it's a very multicultural place, I would be surprised if the actual reason is pure racism, particularly at a restaurant. If the restaurant has hired black women to work there, it's a bit odd that they are turning away customers for being black. Maybe there was another reason the person didn't like the look of you? Maybe just someone having a rough day and didn't want to serve any more customers etc, I wouldn't jump straight to racism, all you know is that you were turned away when they had a table, but the reason is an unknown unknown. You say "You don't know what to make of this" but then your title says 'racism'... the reality is something odd happened that you don't know what, I wouldn't hold on to that, just get on with your day, there are plenty of real dicks and real bad apples to deal with, rather than assuming that because something strange happened it was for this reason. I'm not knocking you, you likely feel this way for very justified reasons, i.e there are a lot of racists out there and it is an issue you have to deal with that you should not, but it's not worth adding to that with something you don't for sure know is the reason.
- hsbauauvhabzb 4y ago
  As someone whose been bullied in the workplace later proven to be based on sexual orientation (but not at a time where I had any weight behind any prejudice accusations), I’m gonna ahead and say piss right off with your ‘are you sure’ junk. Modern racism is much more under the covers than to kill a mockingbird.
  - porknubbins 4y ago
    I have learned over the years that when you go around looking for subtle discrimination or microagressions against you, you basically activate two dangerous parts of your “brain” which are fear/threat detection and pattern recognition. Its much better to have thick skin and count only real overt discrimination, or you can get bitter and paranoid too easily.
    - hsbauauvhabzb 4y ago
charlescearl 4y ago
N.B. despite London being a “diverse” city, racialization permeates, even among the elites. Pop culture commentaries — the Meghan & Harry Netflix documentary; the popular Man Like Mobeen series — as indicators of wider problems. Would this be surprising given the extent to which global racialization has been a primary factor in construction of the British empire? The recently released Abolition Revolution by Aviah Sarah Day and Shanice Octavia McBean might provide context on current dilemmas in Britain.
ajvs 4y ago
As a non-white Londoner I'd say it's far more likely they didn't like the way you dressed or your first impression rather than the colour of your skin, given that the city is one of the most diverse in the world.
valdiorn 4y ago
Question; how do you present yourself externally? How are you dressed? I (a white dude in my 30s) recently went to a high end clothes shop, intending to buy a nice shirt for Christmas. As I asked one of the sales assistants for help, she instantly proclaimed they "have nothing in my size" and that I "must use their online store". This shocked me a bit as, while in a big guy I'm far from huge. I work out a lot, and I'm a tad big, but come on... I asked if I could try the largest shirt they stock in store and she reluctantly agreed, and after putting it on it was about 4 sizes too big. The thing is, I walked in wearing a dirty fleece jacket, and I hadn't shaved for about 2 weeks as I had been really ill, it was my first day back at work for for a while. The experience felt alien to be because usually the sales assistants will fight for my attention - presumably because I look like good commission. Except on this one occasion I looked like trouble - maybe a homeless person taking the piss :) While I've never experienced racism, for obvious reasons, and can't testify to what that feels like, I suspect this is a low level variation of the same effect that black/east Asian people experience daily. The hostess sees you approach and instantly stereotypes you as a certain type of person. Obviously, racial stereotypes will play a part in this classification. But just like I was classified as "scruffy weirdo" by the sales assistant in the clothes store, I might just as well have been turned away by the same restaurant you went to, had I gone there looking like I did. I could go and tell you "ayo, you need to change your external appearance for people to treat you right" that sounds... incredibly patronizing, racist and wrong. So I'm not going to do that. But at the same time it is a solution to this "problem"... just like the when I went shopping the next day, I had shaved and put on a clean shirt, and suddenly everyone was happy to help and had clothes in my size to sell me :/ Summary; it's more about classifying people based on their external appearance than it is about straight-up racism. I'm sure they had a table for a black guy in a Gucci suit, and they would've been fully booked for a scruffy, homeless-looking white guy.
ashwagary 4y ago
Expect varying degrees of racism and colorism in pockets across Europe. It's not uncommon. I would recommend giving your hard earned money to people that appreciate it. In my experience the non-racists offer tastier cuisine.

37 points by naissa 4y ago

binarymax 4y ago

London is a huge diverse city. What area of London are you having trouble? I’m not black, but lived in black communities there. You may have more luck in East or South London areas.

zemvpferreira 4y ago
If that's true it is a shameful thing. Come to Lisbon instead. We're not even that civilised but you certainly won't have trouble being served anywhere.
- okdood64 4y ago
  > We're not even that civilised Elaborate?
  - zemvpferreira 4y ago
    We don't chew with our mouthes open and know how to use cutlery but matter of fact Lisbon is Europe's backwater and racism/sexism/violence/abuse are still very much present in daily life to a degree other Western European nations have long left behind. But we're not as openly bigoted as Londoners apparently - or at least friendlier about it. Maybe we're missing the superiority complex.

solardev 4y ago

I don't know how to help, but just wanted to say... sorry you had that experience =/ Nobody should. Anywhere, really, but especially in a supposedly metropolitan city like London.

zeristor 4y ago

That sounds damn rude of them, Citizen’s Advice has a few pointers about entertainment and services: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/discrimination-because-of-race-religion-or-belief/discrimination-because-of-race/ https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discriminat... I thought most of the racists had moved to Herefordshire.

stickyricky 4y ago

This is tangential to your question. Mostly because all I can do is sympathize and wish you the best. But I did not care for London. Edinburgh is the friendliest place I've visited in the UK if you have the flexibility to spend your vacation elsewhere.

dagmx 4y ago

I had this experience as an Indian there (but also in the US and Canada so not exclusive to London). In fact, our experience was almost identical in a restaurant in Windsor, and after we were allowed in, we were sat in the worst spot behind a door, not allowed to use a different table and the waiter outright ignored us. A white family came and were given a great table, and attended to. All other tables were empty. A few things helped: 1. Calling them out on it. If you have the energy and you feel it’s worth it, it’s worth escalating to the manager. Sometimes I’ve met racist managers too but in most cases they apologize, chalk it up to a misunderstanding and give a discount. In the case of the Windsor restaurant the manager told us to leave when we mentioned how badly we were treated , which we reported and were told that they had a history of it. But in other cases it’s worked out well. 2. I hate doing it, but I had to reflect on my own appearance. I had naturally wild curly hair, and a beard. This was neat for my hair type but not by straight hair standards (hair based racism is a big thing). Even though I was well dressed, a lot of people would look at me when I was single and distance themselves or not allow me in. So if I was going some place and I didn’t want to deal with it, I’d straighten my hair and try and find a female friend to go with me. This is also the case at border crossings. I’d get pulled aside for questioning or security checks more often, but when I travel with my wife or female friends, I’d always get passed through. There’s a lot of distrust for what people think are “scruffy, lone men” even if the reality is that they’re comparing to their racist aesthetic senses. 3. Find someone from your demographic or closer to it, like you did at this place. When we moved to the UK as a kid, my mum would do that and it took me a while to understand why. It was because she was initially treated poorly by many of the non-Indian staff and finding an Indian person there helped because they’d understand and help out. 4. Use humour. When I first moved to Canada I was greeted by a lot of racism. People outright refused to shake my hand. I found making jokes about their behaviour towards me , or the situation as a whole, either made them feel foolish or broke the ice enough that they felt momentarily endeared enough to see past their biases. Dealing with day to day racism as an individual from other individuals is a form of social engineering. I try and understand their headspace and work around it. In most cases these people aren’t actively trying to be racist , but they’re also very unaware about what they’re doing. Those are the ones you can work around. The ones who are actively participating are the ones I move on from because they often get violent.

4y ago

lazybreather 4y ago

A bit off-topic, but something unique to India is reverse-racism, if I can call it that. Many a times, me and friends (mostly all male) try to enter a decent restaurant/pub only to be shown away saying its all booked for the evening. We could clearly see that was not the case. Even if stag entry is generally allowed at those places. But they happily welcome foreigners (of all kinds) right after they deny us. We Indians are an amusing bunch!

edgyquant 4y ago
Seems like more of a class thing right? The non-natives are likely travelers and people who travel to other countries frivolously tend to have more money.
filoleg 4y ago
That's basically kind of how it is with a lot of night clubs in the US as well, just with a different demographic criteria (i.e., not race). If you come as a group of guys (or, most of the time, even as a mixed men/women group), you will be waiting in a long line at the entrance before you get in. Oftentimes, 45+ min wait, if the club is busy that night and popular. But if you come as a group of attractive women (or, sometimes, a mixed group of attractive women and some guys, but with no more guys than women), clubs will often take you out of the massive line and let you through without almost any wait at all. Not blaming the clubs for doing this, it kinda makes sense for their business, given the establishment type, so it doesn't feel that wrong (but i understand it is just my personal subjective take, and is very debatable). Doing it by race (or foreigner/non-foreigner designation) though, like what your comment had described, for some reason to me feels actually awful and wrong to do though.
konaraddi 4y ago
If this was the norm in India then the food service business would collapse because there are far far more Indians than foreigners even in most or all of the touristy areas. There’s likely a more plausible explanation for you and your guy friends being denied (e.g. visiting a restaurant in a touristy area that prefers foreigners to take advantage of the diff in purchasing power by charging more or expecting more in tips). > We Indians are an amusing bunch! There’s some irony in ending your comment with a slightly racist remark. Imagine if one said, “Them <insert another race> are an amusing bunch!” A bit racist isn’t it? I read a quote on HN that stuck with me and articulates why some Indians will say something self-hating (even when it’s off-topic, as you explicitly acknowledged in the first sentence of your comment): “For many Indians, self-flagellation is a sign of their intellectual arrival.” Perhaps an artifact of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_mentality https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_mentality

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jerz 4y ago

Probably not race related. Ever since Brexit/Covid restaurants are understaffed. We regularly go in to empty restaurants and get told they’re fully booked. If it’s a chain place, especially, the staff just don’t care enough to “fit you in”.

zarzavat 4y ago
This is the correct answer. It’s because of post-Brexit staffing issues. Just because there’s a table it doesn’t mean there’s enough front-of-house or back-of-house staff to serve it. See this recent article: https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/dec/04/staff-shortages-see-uk-restaurants-struggle-to-cope-with-christmas-season https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/dec/04/staff-shortages... Britain is not racist per se, it’s xenophobic. For years before Brexit the group that drew the most ire were white Eastern Europeans. Being African American might even be an asset as there’s a bit of a stigma against white Americans.

benjaminwootton 4y ago

I can’t speak to your experience, but London is generally an extremely diverse and tolerant city. As a white British family, we often get turned away from half empty restaurants too. If you turn up at 12 noon, they will hold the table even if it isn’t booked till 1.30 pm. I wonder how much revenue they leak from this as it seems so obvious to let you take the table on a time limit but they never offer. I think some are also still running under capacity post Covid and with staffing issues.

nuc1e0n 4y ago
Restaurants also can have a number of tables pre-allocated to third party companies on the assumption someone can book them though that third party. Similar to this, I once tried to stay in a hotel by just showing up to the reception desk. They told me they were fully booked. I then found the same hotel on a booking website, booked it on there, showed the hotel my now 'reserved' room then stayed at the hotel the same night.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

hotz 4y ago

Is this not something more appropriate for a facebook post or tweet instead of HN...

miiiiiike 4y ago
I actually think this is a valid question. I think the post belongs here because a lot of us run companies that have or will have business that requires us to travel to London.

quasarsunnix 4y ago

Grew up in London and had a black colleague tell me a very similar story. This would have been about 2017 I think. I know a lot of people will tell you it's not possible, etc., but as a Londoner I know there's a lot of unspoken racism in the city, especially in the east-end, where I grew up.

nuc1e0n 4y ago
Obviously most places have their racists but I'd say the east-end of London is one of the least racist places anywhere in the world. People come to live there from all over. When visiting someplace unfamiliar it's easy to see any treatment you get that's not to your liking as a personal attack of some kind. Maybe those people are just bastards to everyone.

randomcarbloke 4y ago

Unlikely it's race related, you could have asked them why though. It's one of the most culturally diverse cities on earth, that's not to say we don't have racists...we obviously do but social etiquette dictates that you keep that shit to yourself...doubly so if in the service industry. As an aside not London related but culturally significant - during WWII American GIs needed to be warned that black soldiers would be treated equal to white, when US commanders demanded a segregated bar in the town of Bamber Bridge, all three pubs in the town reportedly posted "Black Troops Only" signs. Please give my city another chance.

LandR 4y ago

I was in a restaurant a couple months ago. The group in front of us asked for a table for three. They got turned away and told nothing available. Then we went up and I joked that we wanted a table for three, but I heard they had none... She turned around, had a look around and gave us a table. I have no idea what the people in front of us did wrong. They seemed pleasant and polite. But everyone involved was white, so I wouldn't necessarily take your issue as racist.

miiiiiike 4y ago

Yep, had a few experiences. I know a white guy from America who had a Polish last name. When we were in London we never had any problems until he had to show his passport. After that, there was a better than even chance that people would start being rude to him. There was "Go Home Polish Vermin" graffiti (You know those cute red phone booths? Ever look in one?) and some of the news channels had a certain sentiment. Unrelated, related story. We got into town on a bank holiday and almost everything was closed. We saw a guy come out of a door and walk towards us. We asked if he knew where we could get breakfast and he said "Nope. Cheers Mate!" We were at a four-way stop and had to pick a direction. We ended up walking in the direction that the guy had come from.. And it turned out he had just walked out of a restaurant serving breakfast. I've understood "Cheers Mate" to mean "Fuck Off" since then. Back to the story. The third time he got an "OHHHHH, POOOOLISH!" from someone looking at his passport, he snatched it from the guy, smiled, and said "Nope. American. Cheers Mate." and walked in. After the trip he reflected on how some of his UK colleagues and investors had treated him over the years. He ended up changing his name. You can't change your skin color. Prejudice is out there and there was always that weird moment of "Is this really happening or are we imagining it?" Having it be subtle enough that you're left wondering, that was the most fucked up part. So I know what you mean. Give 'em a "Cheers Mate." next time it happens.

_Wintermute 4y ago
As someone who has lived in the UK for 25 years with a Polish surname, I've never experienced this at all. It's more likely due to someone with an American accent asking strangers questions, people immediately think loud tourist and stay away.
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  GP's story seems highly unlikely, or at least is missing crucial details. I've lived in London for the last 8 years, and a total of around 11. I'm neither white nor European, let alone British. I have many friends, Polish, Turkish, British of various ethnicities, Africans from a few different countries, Middle Easterners, Americans (mostly South and Central), you name it.... I have never heard of any of them being treated in such a way. Also, why was this person flaunting a passport around London? The only times I had mine on me were when coming in or out of the country. Then, he decides to change his name because of how "some of his UK colleagues and investors had treated him over the years"? Assuming the story is true, I somehow don't think the problem has ever been his name, surname, physical appearance or passport. I don't want to assume a lie but there are definitely important pieces missing.

ac50hz 4y ago

I would always recommend taking some photos, if possible and if relevant, and leave a review concerning, and asking, about their apparent reservation policy. London can be great. It can also be incredibly disappointing when you’re confronted by the isms that we had expected to have been excised.

ChildOfChaos 4y ago

Are you sure it is anything to do with Racism? I mean you have no evidence of that and it's a large assumption on your part? London has a huge black community and non-white residents, it's a very multicultural place, I would be surprised if the actual reason is pure racism, particularly at a restaurant. If the restaurant has hired black women to work there, it's a bit odd that they are turning away customers for being black. Maybe there was another reason the person didn't like the look of you? Maybe just someone having a rough day and didn't want to serve any more customers etc, I wouldn't jump straight to racism, all you know is that you were turned away when they had a table, but the reason is an unknown unknown. You say "You don't know what to make of this" but then your title says 'racism'... the reality is something odd happened that you don't know what, I wouldn't hold on to that, just get on with your day, there are plenty of real dicks and real bad apples to deal with, rather than assuming that because something strange happened it was for this reason. I'm not knocking you, you likely feel this way for very justified reasons, i.e there are a lot of racists out there and it is an issue you have to deal with that you should not, but it's not worth adding to that with something you don't for sure know is the reason.

hsbauauvhabzb 4y ago
As someone whose been bullied in the workplace later proven to be based on sexual orientation (but not at a time where I had any weight behind any prejudice accusations), I’m gonna ahead and say piss right off with your ‘are you sure’ junk. Modern racism is much more under the covers than to kill a mockingbird.
- porknubbins 4y ago
  I have learned over the years that when you go around looking for subtle discrimination or microagressions against you, you basically activate two dangerous parts of your “brain” which are fear/threat detection and pattern recognition. Its much better to have thick skin and count only real overt discrimination, or you can get bitter and paranoid too easily.
  - hsbauauvhabzb 4y ago

charlescearl 4y ago

N.B. despite London being a “diverse” city, racialization permeates, even among the elites. Pop culture commentaries — the Meghan & Harry Netflix documentary; the popular Man Like Mobeen series — as indicators of wider problems. Would this be surprising given the extent to which global racialization has been a primary factor in construction of the British empire? The recently released Abolition Revolution by Aviah Sarah Day and Shanice Octavia McBean might provide context on current dilemmas in Britain.

ajvs 4y ago

As a non-white Londoner I'd say it's far more likely they didn't like the way you dressed or your first impression rather than the colour of your skin, given that the city is one of the most diverse in the world.

valdiorn 4y ago

Question; how do you present yourself externally? How are you dressed? I (a white dude in my 30s) recently went to a high end clothes shop, intending to buy a nice shirt for Christmas. As I asked one of the sales assistants for help, she instantly proclaimed they "have nothing in my size" and that I "must use their online store". This shocked me a bit as, while in a big guy I'm far from huge. I work out a lot, and I'm a tad big, but come on... I asked if I could try the largest shirt they stock in store and she reluctantly agreed, and after putting it on it was about 4 sizes too big. The thing is, I walked in wearing a dirty fleece jacket, and I hadn't shaved for about 2 weeks as I had been really ill, it was my first day back at work for for a while. The experience felt alien to be because usually the sales assistants will fight for my attention - presumably because I look like good commission. Except on this one occasion I looked like trouble - maybe a homeless person taking the piss :) While I've never experienced racism, for obvious reasons, and can't testify to what that feels like, I suspect this is a low level variation of the same effect that black/east Asian people experience daily. The hostess sees you approach and instantly stereotypes you as a certain type of person. Obviously, racial stereotypes will play a part in this classification. But just like I was classified as "scruffy weirdo" by the sales assistant in the clothes store, I might just as well have been turned away by the same restaurant you went to, had I gone there looking like I did. I could go and tell you "ayo, you need to change your external appearance for people to treat you right" that sounds... incredibly patronizing, racist and wrong. So I'm not going to do that. But at the same time it is a solution to this "problem"... just like the when I went shopping the next day, I had shaved and put on a clean shirt, and suddenly everyone was happy to help and had clothes in my size to sell me :/ Summary; it's more about classifying people based on their external appearance than it is about straight-up racism. I'm sure they had a table for a black guy in a Gucci suit, and they would've been fully booked for a scruffy, homeless-looking white guy.

ashwagary 4y ago

Expect varying degrees of racism and colorism in pockets across Europe. It's not uncommon. I would recommend giving your hard earned money to people that appreciate it. In my experience the non-racists offer tastier cuisine.