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> It's implausible to me that we're simultaneously both highly paid geniuses and clueless tools. It can happen to the best of us [1]. "" I spent thirty-

> It's implausible to me that we're simultaneously both highly paid geniuses and clueless tools. It can happen to the best of us [1]. "" I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. "" - Gen. Smedley Butler [1] https://man.fas.org/smedley.htm https://man.fas.org/smedley.htm

fanso99 4y ago
Honestly, that's not a great example. Re-evaluating your ethical impact on the world is not the same as understanding the direct consequences of your daily work. Both are important, but really different. After all we are not discussing some more abstract issues of modern software propagating capitalistic values (we are all "the system", etc, etc).
- trinsic2 4y ago
  > Honestly, that's not a great example. Re-evaluating your ethical impact on the world is not the same as understanding the direct consequences of your daily work. Both are important, but really different. Why does the difference matter again?
  - fanso99 4y ago
    Because looking back at the decades of your work while being retired is just a sweet ethical exercise with very few direct personal and financial consequences. If you are an engineer employing dark UX patterns _today_ you must look at yourself and evaluate the ethics of your work _today_. This will likely have direct personal and financial consequences. So the stakes are completely different.
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  I always took it that Butler underwent an epiphany after years of believing something else. Maybe it was a case of eyes wide open. Nonetheless your distinction stands and yes it's very significant. I wonder how many developers are being hoodwinked and how many are just not being very honest with themselves.
  - fanso99 4y ago
    I might be wrong, but I always lean towards this being the result of prioritization. Most engineers know the difference but prioritize other aspects than ethical. I am not even judging that, just describing. After all, implementing a dark UX pattern that will inconvenience some unknown to you users is not as high priority as providing to your own family.
  - cfraenkel 4y ago
    It's a different mindset. When you're in uniform, under oath, you don't speak out, you salute and do what you're ordered to. When you retire, you take the uniform off and are your own man again.
wpietri 4y ago
I think Butler had a harder problem. His job was to produce violence and threats of violence. It's harder to know whether that's truly used for good ends than, say, a web form.

fanso99 4y ago

Honestly, that's not a great example. Re-evaluating your ethical impact on the world is not the same as understanding the direct consequences of your daily work. Both are important, but really different. After all we are not discussing some more abstract issues of modern software propagating capitalistic values (we are all "the system", etc, etc).

trinsic2 4y ago
> Honestly, that's not a great example. Re-evaluating your ethical impact on the world is not the same as understanding the direct consequences of your daily work. Both are important, but really different. Why does the difference matter again?
- fanso99 4y ago
  Because looking back at the decades of your work while being retired is just a sweet ethical exercise with very few direct personal and financial consequences. If you are an engineer employing dark UX patterns _today_ you must look at yourself and evaluate the ethics of your work _today_. This will likely have direct personal and financial consequences. So the stakes are completely different.
nonrandomstring 4y ago
I always took it that Butler underwent an epiphany after years of believing something else. Maybe it was a case of eyes wide open. Nonetheless your distinction stands and yes it's very significant. I wonder how many developers are being hoodwinked and how many are just not being very honest with themselves.
- fanso99 4y ago
  I might be wrong, but I always lean towards this being the result of prioritization. Most engineers know the difference but prioritize other aspects than ethical. I am not even judging that, just describing. After all, implementing a dark UX pattern that will inconvenience some unknown to you users is not as high priority as providing to your own family.
- cfraenkel 4y ago
  It's a different mindset. When you're in uniform, under oath, you don't speak out, you salute and do what you're ordered to. When you retire, you take the uniform off and are your own man again.

wpietri 4y ago

I think Butler had a harder problem. His job was to produce violence and threats of violence. It's harder to know whether that's truly used for good ends than, say, a web form.