4 ms·

You are right but calling this 'obfuscate and save face' is a pretty uncharitable take. "let's take this offline" is just a polite jargon for 'this is off-topic

by frankc 4y ago

You are right but calling this 'obfuscate and save face' is a pretty uncharitable take. "let's take this offline" is just a polite jargon for 'this is off-topic or inappropriate for this venue'. I generally find hacker news interpretation of business jargon as uncharitable and unnessarily hostile. Not sure why such an innoccous expression like 'circle-back' sends people into fits of rage. There is good reason to be circumspect about heavy project-management overhead as its often misapllied, but that really has nothing to do with this jargon.

kristianc 4y ago
I didn’t actually intend it to be uncharitable - sometimes allowing a stakeholder (even a ‘key’ stakeholder) an off ramp to a potentially awkward situation is a much better outcome for the long term health of the project where it’s a reasonable assumption you’re going to have to work with this person again, for a period of possibly months or years. HN probably has a higher proportion of people who prefer a slightly more direct style of communication, and enjoy working with code which is much more functional IO than working with humans. If those people are coming to HN to blow off steam, that’s what you should expect - doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be disastrous if anyone tried to implement it in the real world.
WesolyKubeczek 4y ago
> Not sure why such an innoccous expression like 'circle-back' sends people into fits of rage. Because it’s not innocuous, it’s fucking obnoxious, that’s what. Just as I was thanking my deities of choice a few years ago that “touch basing” all the time had become uncool and all but disappeared from the workplace parlance, now all of a sudden everyone is happily “circling back” to topics of choice. It seems to be coming and going in waves. This new hotness of a slang is also particularly shitty because it alludes to going through a few rounds of unnecessary talk before getting to the point. It’s also one thing if one person is doing this, but if everyone and their dog keep circling back to stuff, it sounds quite idiotic. The only thing that’s even worse is when a manager adopts military terminology while knowing nothing whatsoever about military.
quanticle 4y ago
Because it doesn't clarify nor is it more concise than the alternatives. A good example of this is "learnings". I have seen multiple managers use the word "learnings", usually in in phrases like, "What were our learnings from this?" Or, "What learnings can we take away?" But there's already a perfectly fine word to use: lessons! The only reason to use "learnings" instead of "lessons" is to show that you're a serious manager. It's just empty signalling. Similarly, "ring fence". Is it really that much better than, "set aside"? Does it add any nuance, or is it just meaningless change for change's sake? I am far more tolerant of jargon in law and technology than I am of it in business, because, in my experience, legal and technology jargon does function as shorthand, putting complex topics into a labeled box that allows the speaker to quickly make their point without having to repeat a bunch of knowledge that the audience can be assumed to be familiar with. Business jargon, on the other hand, is far more often merely different for the sake of being different.
- kristianc 4y ago
  > The only reason to use "learnings" instead of "lessons" is to show that you're a serious manager. It's just empty signalling. I can’t really comment on Signalling, but the word learnings isn’t a new and modern invention. It’s in Shakespeare! It’s also a fallacy to think that there’s a canon of ‘acceptable’ words we can choose from, nor that we are only allowed one word per concept. Language evolves over time and acquires meaning through use.
  - quanticle 4y ago
    I can guarantee that none of the managers I've interacted with who used "learnings" were making a reference to the Bard of Avon.
    - kristianc 4y ago
      I’m sure they weren’t either, but that is kind of my point — English is one of the most flexible languages in the world and no-one except linguists really looks too hard into the etymology of the words they use, but use the words that fit the occasion and adapt accordingly. And sometimes this works rather well — much as you may despise the word learnings, we got the word scrumptious through the same process.

by frankc 4y ago

kristianc 4y ago

I didn’t actually intend it to be uncharitable - sometimes allowing a stakeholder (even a ‘key’ stakeholder) an off ramp to a potentially awkward situation is a much better outcome for the long term health of the project where it’s a reasonable assumption you’re going to have to work with this person again, for a period of possibly months or years. HN probably has a higher proportion of people who prefer a slightly more direct style of communication, and enjoy working with code which is much more functional IO than working with humans. If those people are coming to HN to blow off steam, that’s what you should expect - doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be disastrous if anyone tried to implement it in the real world.

WesolyKubeczek 4y ago

> Not sure why such an innoccous expression like 'circle-back' sends people into fits of rage. Because it’s not innocuous, it’s fucking obnoxious, that’s what. Just as I was thanking my deities of choice a few years ago that “touch basing” all the time had become uncool and all but disappeared from the workplace parlance, now all of a sudden everyone is happily “circling back” to topics of choice. It seems to be coming and going in waves. This new hotness of a slang is also particularly shitty because it alludes to going through a few rounds of unnecessary talk before getting to the point. It’s also one thing if one person is doing this, but if everyone and their dog keep circling back to stuff, it sounds quite idiotic. The only thing that’s even worse is when a manager adopts military terminology while knowing nothing whatsoever about military.

quanticle 4y ago

Because it doesn't clarify nor is it more concise than the alternatives. A good example of this is "learnings". I have seen multiple managers use the word "learnings", usually in in phrases like, "What were our learnings from this?" Or, "What learnings can we take away?" But there's already a perfectly fine word to use: lessons! The only reason to use "learnings" instead of "lessons" is to show that you're a serious manager. It's just empty signalling. Similarly, "ring fence". Is it really that much better than, "set aside"? Does it add any nuance, or is it just meaningless change for change's sake? I am far more tolerant of jargon in law and technology than I am of it in business, because, in my experience, legal and technology jargon does function as shorthand, putting complex topics into a labeled box that allows the speaker to quickly make their point without having to repeat a bunch of knowledge that the audience can be assumed to be familiar with. Business jargon, on the other hand, is far more often merely different for the sake of being different.

kristianc 4y ago
> The only reason to use "learnings" instead of "lessons" is to show that you're a serious manager. It's just empty signalling. I can’t really comment on Signalling, but the word learnings isn’t a new and modern invention. It’s in Shakespeare! It’s also a fallacy to think that there’s a canon of ‘acceptable’ words we can choose from, nor that we are only allowed one word per concept. Language evolves over time and acquires meaning through use.
- quanticle 4y ago
  I can guarantee that none of the managers I've interacted with who used "learnings" were making a reference to the Bard of Avon.
  - kristianc 4y ago
    I’m sure they weren’t either, but that is kind of my point — English is one of the most flexible languages in the world and no-one except linguists really looks too hard into the etymology of the words they use, but use the words that fit the occasion and adapt accordingly. And sometimes this works rather well — much as you may despise the word learnings, we got the word scrumptious through the same process.