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BBC Subtitle Guidelines

134 points by rogual 4y ago

rwmj 4y ago
Kind of related (to broadcast TV, not online media) - broadcasters are required to subtitle British TV in most cases. Tom Scott has a video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m__OZ3ZsO4Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m__OZ3ZsO4Y
zinekeller 4y ago
One of those big difference between UK subtitling and US captioning is the use of colo(u)r or the absence of it (https://www.bbc.co.uk/accessibility/forproducts/guides/subtitles/#Colours https://www.bbc.co.uk/accessibility/forproducts/guides/subti...), which I believe boils down to technological differences between television systems in the '80s. While the UK-developed teletext system is also available in NTSC (in fact CBC have deployed it), the US opted out to develope a separate captioning system that only supports basic text and positoning. I'M NOT SURE IF THIS IS BECAUSE OF GOOD OLD PROTECTIONISM OR CONVERTING STATIONS TO HAVE A TELETEXT COMPUTER ON EVERY STATION IS IMPRACTICAL IN THE US WHERE, AT THE TIME AT LEAST, THERE ARE A DIVERSE NUMBER OF BROADCASTERS WHICH MIGHT NOT AFFORD THE EQUIPMENT NEEDED SINCE TELETEXT IS AN "ACTIVE" SYSTEM WHEREAS THE PBS-DEVE- LOPED SYSTEM CAN BE USED ON EXISTING, CAPTION-UNAWARE SYSTEMS ... while the UK only had two broadcasters at the time, which are the BBC and the IBA (Independent Broadcasting Authority*), it is easier to develop and actually broadcast teletext. * Despite their name suggesting that it only monitors broadcasts, they are actually the broadcaster which has the authority to install teletext equipment. The then-ITV companies are only program suppliers to the IBA, not broadcasters in their own right.
- crazygringo 4y ago
  That's fascinating, to color-code by character. For (foreign-language) subtitles that seems distracting and unnecessary, since even if you don't see the character speaking, you can recognize their voice. But for closed-captioning (for the hard of hearing), it seems like it could add clarity. Yet in the past I've watched movies with CC without sound (like on a long-distance bus) and don't remember ever having a problem understanding who a line belonged to. Does anybody have actual experience with color-coded captions and whether they're more of a help or more of a distraction?
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    Why would it be distracting to know who’s line it is without color coding? Why would color be the thing that distracts you; wouldn’t the actual captions be far more distracting? As to why: it’s another datapoint to use to reconstruct what fully able people can do quickly. Sometimes captions aren’t well timed. Sometimes a lot of things happen very quickly and it’s hard to keep track. What if the camera isn’t on anyone’s face? You can probably figure it out by context, but why expend the mental energy when it can just be colored? Just because you never had this issue (and I’m sure you did, it’s not like we remember the most mundane of details like this years later) doesn’t mean it’s not an issue.
    - bdowling 4y ago
      Foreign language subtitling and captioning for the deaf are different because their audiences have different needs.
      - mynameisvlad 4y ago
        I mean, no, it plainly isn’t. You have a single set of guidelines (BBC doesn’t have two sets, nor does any other provider I know of) and a single set of subtitles as a result. This is accessibility like anything else. High contrast can be used by many people on the ability spectrum for multiple various reasons. Subtitles are the same. Some use them because they’re deaf, some use them because they’re not confident enough in a language to use only one sensory input, some just like subtitles. But since your claim is they’re separate, please show me exactly how they are separate. Show me the two separate style guides, show me providers differentiating between them and providing both captions and subtitles. Show me even the smallest sliver that backs up your claim. And, more importantly, show me the exact reasoning why color would work in one but not the other.
        bdowling 4y ago
        Captions like “[ upbeat music ]” or “[ computer beeps ]” signal to deaf listeners information about the program that they cannot sense. There is no need for those when adding subtitles to a foreign-language program made for a hearing audience. Similarly, subtitles are necessary for on-screen foreign language text (e.g., signs or documents), but not when the text is in the language that a deaf viewer understands. For example, you wouldn’t have an English subtitle for an on-screen sign in English, but you would for an on-screen sign in Chinese. The BBC produces content exclusively (or nearly exclusively) in English, so these guidelines are surely directed towards captioning of English-language content for hearing-impaired, English-reading audiences.
- kvm000 4y ago
  The older “608”[1] system in North America was much simpler but the current “708”[2] standard does support specifying colours and fonts, but in my experience in the industry nobody uses those functions at all and just uses the 708 function to embed the older 608 payload data within the newer 708 data structure. In UK/Europe the older/simpler format would be OP-42/OP-47 Teletext[3] which can be used for captions instead of the full-screen data pages, or DVB Subtitles[4], which get into more uses around “subtitles” in terms of language translation, rather than only the “closed caption” use case where it matches the content language. DVB subtitles can be sent as pre-rendered bitmaps or as data for client-side rendering. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA-608 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA-608 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CTA-708 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CTA-708 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtitles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtitles
  - zinekeller 4y ago
    Yeah, I know of the "708" captioning system but it is surprisingly underutilized* by broadcasters. I think that they don't see any use for e.g. color? * in terms of 708-only features, not on the pedantic "ATSC uses the 708 system"
    - kvm000 4y ago
      There are very strong lobbying groups that push for accessibility in terms of captions (as well as the “DV” described video audio track) but my impression is that their focus is on the quantity of content that’s covered, and the quality (spelling, time-alignment), and I guess they don’t care as much about text styling. The requirements are quite high in Canada[1] and have been expanding in the US as well[2]. The company I work for makes products for broadcast customers, around asset management, linear playout automation, and the playout servers that insert the captions (from files or live data sources) so working out how that all happens is part of every big project. [1] https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/info_sht/b321.htm https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/info_sht/b321.htm [2] https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/closed-captioning-television https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/closed-captioning-telev...
    - 4y ago
- kvm000 4y ago
  In my experience with a few big broadcasters like Paramount (previously Viacom) and Discovery, for broadcast in Europe/UK the signal they generate often has a mix of Teletext and/or DVB inserted based on the channel since those signals are distributed to a LOT of partners like local satellite and cable companies who can decide which parts of the signal to map into their system. In that context, “teletext” just works the same as the North American 608 captions and has nothing to do with the older full-screen data stuff. There are no restrictions around authority for “teletext equipment” - for those channels they actually use systems fully based in AWS with the playout engine running on an EC2 instance so all software-only to generate the single MPEG transport stream with video/graphics + audio + captions + subtitles. It’s also common to send a DVB subtitle multiplex that has a number of languages (up to 20+) embedded in the same signal.
  - zinekeller 4y ago
    To be fair, I'm talking about the old PAL-based teletext and not about DVB teletext. Also, computers are now everywhere so the 888 page can be inserted with minimal effort unlike back then that it requires coordination with different teams.
    - kvm000 4y ago
      I was talking about the older PAL-based teletext as well - but you're right, I understand it was different in terms of equipment originally with the full-screen data feeds. Separate from DVB, the old PAL OP42/47 teletext payload gets inserted into the MPEG-TS using SMPTE 2038[1] then when decoded, it would go into regular ancillary data of the uncompressed stream per ITU-R BT.1120-7[2]. The broadcast industry really loves standards[3]. [1] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7290549 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7290549 [2] https://www.freetv.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/OP-42-Closed-Captioning-Issue-5-May-2018.pdf https://www.freetv.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/OP-42-C... [3] https://xkcd.com/927 https://xkcd.com/927
  - fredoralive 4y ago
    I was under the impression the "teletext" style ones still used teletext encoding, not EIA-608? It's basically just a data steam containing a single page of teletext rather than a whole magazine? AFAIK Sky Digital uses this approach (at least for SD), with a more modern looking decoder, and it certainly has colour support at least[1]. [1] Although DVB can contain a full teletext stream that can be reinserted into the SD analogue VBI by the receiver. Sky boxes supported that so on some channels you could just go to ye olde page 888, although I haven't a clue if any channels still do that (I don't have an old SD Sky setup around to look).
- artandtechnic 4y ago
  The Closed Captioning System for the Deaf - which became known as "608" - was always capable of displaying captions in color.* However, this faculty was largely underutilized, due to a variety of historical / technical reasons.** * Indeed, the first test broadcasts from 1979 included color. ** This is due to the design of the original 1980 "decoder," which only 'worked well' for color when installed inside an NTSC television. For the external adapters, grayscale instead of color was displayed. The only way to view color captions in color back in 1980/1981 was with a TeleCaption TV - and there was only one model ever made.
TechBro8615 4y ago
Something I've wondered... when politicians give speeches they often have some hand gesturing from a sign language interpreter standing next to them. But I've never understood why this is better than subtitles. If you're deaf then wouldn't you rather read text than follow sign language?
- SanjayMehta 4y ago
  I would guess that the sign language interpreter is translating in near real time in live speeches.
  - kvm000 4y ago
    Live closed captions (text only) is very common and standard. Usually those are done by an external company listening in to an audio feed, and sending the data back. It used to be done with regular POTS lines and telnet, but now it’s obviously more common to use public internet based services like EEG iCap[1] I don’t know too much about it but I had read recently that ASL sign language can be thought of as a different language, rather than a direct equivalent to text subtitles[2]. [1] https://eegent.com/icap https://eegent.com/icap [2] https://imanyco.com/closed-captions-and-sign-language-not-a-substitute-for-one-another-1/ https://imanyco.com/closed-captions-and-sign-language-not-a-...
    - bloak 4y ago
      > I had read recently that ASL sign language can be thought of as a different language Yes, it is a different language. I've heard that ASL is rather similar to French Sign Language and quite different from BSL (British Sign Language). If someone were to translate something from English into ASL, and someone else were to translate the ASL back into English, I'd expect the result to be as different from the original as if they'd gone via some other language, like Italian, for example.
      - RajT88 4y ago
        There's a variety of running jokes that Italian is half sign language anyways. (Apparently derived from the fact that in Italy, there's quite a lot more non-verbal communication with hand gestures than other parts of the world)
ErikVandeWater 4y ago
Couldn't find anything about the use of (sic) or [sic]. Maybe they want leeway on that so as not to be offensive?
- M2Ys4U 4y ago
  The default position is that subtitles are a verbatim transcription of what was actually said, so there's no need for "[sic]".
sircastor 4y ago
I recently went through Netflix's subtitle guidelines when I was trying to figure out how to alter a subtitle file that I'd found that was pretty barebones. One of the interesting things about it was reading a rule, and then understanding the justification associated with the decision. Some of it is relatively arbitrary, but after you give it a bit of thought it makes sense.
- jiggawatts 4y ago
  None of it makes the slightest bit of sense. Netflix subtitles are HDR maximum white. On a modern TV while watching dark scenes like in the House of Dragons, it's like trying to look into a cave while someone is shining an LED torch in your face. Oh, and they won't let you chose arbitrary subtitle languages. Someone at Netflix wrote the code -- it wasn't an accident! -- to deliberately restrict the available languages to English for the the Hearing Impaired plus four of the most common local languages. Not speaking one of those four? Tough titties. Would you like to see English subtitles without "Bang!", "Loud breathing", and "Somber music"? Haha.. no. Someone made decisions at Netflix that made sense to them, and no one else.
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camyule 4y ago
Seems as relevant a place as any to highlight the lack of support for subtitles in BBC iPlayer on AppleTV: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/help/questions/accessibility/apple-tv-subtitles https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/help/questions/accessibility/a.... I work in a related industry so fully understand how these situations come to pass, but as a user it’s frustrating to say the least.
- zinekeller 4y ago
  Is it only Apple TV (and not on iPhone for example)? If it's Apple-wide I can imagine it but I'm curious what is the possible reason that BBC can't support having a separate subtitle renderer?
  - fredoralive 4y ago
    I just checked, iPad has it (and using colour coding, as that has come up elsewhere in these threads). On Apple TV a subtitle menu appears in the time bar, but it doesn't seem to do anything in either the "Automatic" or "CC" options it gives? CC is a bit of an Americanism, perhaps it is running more directly though some Apple playback code that is more particular about subtitle formats? I suspect the ultimate case is probably low usage statistics not making it a priority. The icon / BBC logo didn't update at the same time as the iOS version, so I suspect its a separate codebase for some reason?
    - payamb 4y ago
      iPlayer on TV (across all platforms) is a generic web application, topped with a custom wrapper app (think webview) for each platform, responsible to hook platform’s native APIs to Web/JS APIs. I’m guessing there are some complications hooking Apple TV’s native subtitles APIs to relevant web APIs, and low usage statistics doesn’t help prioritising fixing the issue. Although the rumour is that they are working on a completely new Apple TV app.
      - dbbk 4y ago
        For most platforms this is true, but not Apple TV. I don't think they even allow it. iPlayer is definitely native code.
operator-name 4y ago
Only recently the UK government style guide was on the front page: A simple guide on words to avoid in government - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34104530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34104530
wpietri 4y ago
Ooh, nice. I especially appreciate seeing jokes mentioned in there as a specific case. I often watch with subtitles on and it's frustrating when a joke is spoiled by bad subtitle timing.
greggarious 4y ago
Do they have a guideline for WHEN subtitles are used? I remember sitting in a hostel common room the day after Mark Duggan was murdered[1] and half joking "Are they giving that Scottish guy subtitles as a joke?" and being told "This is a very serious situation". The previous night, the "mates" had been "joshing" me about how much more violent America is... then their eyes went wide when I was like "Well, that's a BRITISH cop car on fire, I'm switching to water... it's gonna be fun finding our way home... doesn't the queen live near here?" (To be fair, the "chavs" were very respectful once they heard an American accent and let us walk home, but part of that may have been because they didn't grok that they check us for guns at the airport and that rumors every bald black clad hacker is in the CIA are greatly exaggerated so they totally could have knifed us all and taken our iPods, lolllll.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Mark_Duggan#Shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Mark_Duggan#Shooti...
- TheHappyOddish 4y ago
  Are you ok?
deleted 4y ago
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vonseel 4y ago
Man, a lot more goes into syncing the subtitles than I thought. I recently tried using bazarr to auto-sync subtitles, thinking that for some reason the autosync would improve things, even though I usually didn't have any problems. Well, after that, all my subtitles were horribly out of sync. FFsubsync did not work as magically as I expected. I ended up just resetting them all to their original versions and disabling automatic subtitle synchronization, which I will only attempt to use if the subs are out of sync for some reason. Note that I did not use ffsubsync directly, but IIRC that is what bazarr uses behind the scenes when "sync subtitles based on audio file instead of embedded subtitles" is checked.
pedalpete 4y ago
I didn't think about subtitles as a default for people who are hard of hearing. I thought most people would have a device that turns the captions on and off. The reason I even noticed this with BBC is because I was interviewed by Reuters a few years ago and the footage was spread through news throughout the world both online and on broadcast TV. A friend from the UK sent me a screenshot where the BBC had captioned me. They were the only channel to do this (that I saw or heard about) I'm Canadian, and we tend to have one of the easiest to understand clearly spoken accents. So it surprised me that BBC went to the trouble of adding captions. This makes sense now.

134 points by rogual 4y ago

rwmj 4y ago

Kind of related (to broadcast TV, not online media) - broadcasters are required to subtitle British TV in most cases. Tom Scott has a video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m__OZ3ZsO4Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m__OZ3ZsO4Y

zinekeller 4y ago

One of those big difference between UK subtitling and US captioning is the use of colo(u)r or the absence of it (https://www.bbc.co.uk/accessibility/forproducts/guides/subtitles/#Colours https://www.bbc.co.uk/accessibility/forproducts/guides/subti...), which I believe boils down to technological differences between television systems in the '80s. While the UK-developed teletext system is also available in NTSC (in fact CBC have deployed it), the US opted out to develope a separate captioning system that only supports basic text and positoning. I'M NOT SURE IF THIS IS BECAUSE OF GOOD OLD PROTECTIONISM OR CONVERTING STATIONS TO HAVE A TELETEXT COMPUTER ON EVERY STATION IS IMPRACTICAL IN THE US WHERE, AT THE TIME AT LEAST, THERE ARE A DIVERSE NUMBER OF BROADCASTERS WHICH MIGHT NOT AFFORD THE EQUIPMENT NEEDED SINCE TELETEXT IS AN "ACTIVE" SYSTEM WHEREAS THE PBS-DEVE- LOPED SYSTEM CAN BE USED ON EXISTING, CAPTION-UNAWARE SYSTEMS ... while the UK only had two broadcasters at the time, which are the BBC and the IBA (Independent Broadcasting Authority*), it is easier to develop and actually broadcast teletext. * Despite their name suggesting that it only monitors broadcasts, they are actually the broadcaster which has the authority to install teletext equipment. The then-ITV companies are only program suppliers to the IBA, not broadcasters in their own right.

crazygringo 4y ago
That's fascinating, to color-code by character. For (foreign-language) subtitles that seems distracting and unnecessary, since even if you don't see the character speaking, you can recognize their voice. But for closed-captioning (for the hard of hearing), it seems like it could add clarity. Yet in the past I've watched movies with CC without sound (like on a long-distance bus) and don't remember ever having a problem understanding who a line belonged to. Does anybody have actual experience with color-coded captions and whether they're more of a help or more of a distraction?
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  Why would it be distracting to know who’s line it is without color coding? Why would color be the thing that distracts you; wouldn’t the actual captions be far more distracting? As to why: it’s another datapoint to use to reconstruct what fully able people can do quickly. Sometimes captions aren’t well timed. Sometimes a lot of things happen very quickly and it’s hard to keep track. What if the camera isn’t on anyone’s face? You can probably figure it out by context, but why expend the mental energy when it can just be colored? Just because you never had this issue (and I’m sure you did, it’s not like we remember the most mundane of details like this years later) doesn’t mean it’s not an issue.
  - bdowling 4y ago
    Foreign language subtitling and captioning for the deaf are different because their audiences have different needs.
    - mynameisvlad 4y ago
      I mean, no, it plainly isn’t. You have a single set of guidelines (BBC doesn’t have two sets, nor does any other provider I know of) and a single set of subtitles as a result. This is accessibility like anything else. High contrast can be used by many people on the ability spectrum for multiple various reasons. Subtitles are the same. Some use them because they’re deaf, some use them because they’re not confident enough in a language to use only one sensory input, some just like subtitles. But since your claim is they’re separate, please show me exactly how they are separate. Show me the two separate style guides, show me providers differentiating between them and providing both captions and subtitles. Show me even the smallest sliver that backs up your claim. And, more importantly, show me the exact reasoning why color would work in one but not the other.
      - bdowling 4y ago
        Captions like “[ upbeat music ]” or “[ computer beeps ]” signal to deaf listeners information about the program that they cannot sense. There is no need for those when adding subtitles to a foreign-language program made for a hearing audience. Similarly, subtitles are necessary for on-screen foreign language text (e.g., signs or documents), but not when the text is in the language that a deaf viewer understands. For example, you wouldn’t have an English subtitle for an on-screen sign in English, but you would for an on-screen sign in Chinese. The BBC produces content exclusively (or nearly exclusively) in English, so these guidelines are surely directed towards captioning of English-language content for hearing-impaired, English-reading audiences.
kvm000 4y ago
The older “608”[1] system in North America was much simpler but the current “708”[2] standard does support specifying colours and fonts, but in my experience in the industry nobody uses those functions at all and just uses the 708 function to embed the older 608 payload data within the newer 708 data structure. In UK/Europe the older/simpler format would be OP-42/OP-47 Teletext[3] which can be used for captions instead of the full-screen data pages, or DVB Subtitles[4], which get into more uses around “subtitles” in terms of language translation, rather than only the “closed caption” use case where it matches the content language. DVB subtitles can be sent as pre-rendered bitmaps or as data for client-side rendering. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA-608 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA-608 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CTA-708 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CTA-708 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtitles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtitles
- zinekeller 4y ago
  Yeah, I know of the "708" captioning system but it is surprisingly underutilized* by broadcasters. I think that they don't see any use for e.g. color? * in terms of 708-only features, not on the pedantic "ATSC uses the 708 system"
  - kvm000 4y ago
    There are very strong lobbying groups that push for accessibility in terms of captions (as well as the “DV” described video audio track) but my impression is that their focus is on the quantity of content that’s covered, and the quality (spelling, time-alignment), and I guess they don’t care as much about text styling. The requirements are quite high in Canada[1] and have been expanding in the US as well[2]. The company I work for makes products for broadcast customers, around asset management, linear playout automation, and the playout servers that insert the captions (from files or live data sources) so working out how that all happens is part of every big project. [1] https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/info_sht/b321.htm https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/info_sht/b321.htm [2] https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/closed-captioning-television https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/closed-captioning-telev...
  - 4y ago
kvm000 4y ago
In my experience with a few big broadcasters like Paramount (previously Viacom) and Discovery, for broadcast in Europe/UK the signal they generate often has a mix of Teletext and/or DVB inserted based on the channel since those signals are distributed to a LOT of partners like local satellite and cable companies who can decide which parts of the signal to map into their system. In that context, “teletext” just works the same as the North American 608 captions and has nothing to do with the older full-screen data stuff. There are no restrictions around authority for “teletext equipment” - for those channels they actually use systems fully based in AWS with the playout engine running on an EC2 instance so all software-only to generate the single MPEG transport stream with video/graphics + audio + captions + subtitles. It’s also common to send a DVB subtitle multiplex that has a number of languages (up to 20+) embedded in the same signal.
- zinekeller 4y ago
  To be fair, I'm talking about the old PAL-based teletext and not about DVB teletext. Also, computers are now everywhere so the 888 page can be inserted with minimal effort unlike back then that it requires coordination with different teams.
  - kvm000 4y ago
    I was talking about the older PAL-based teletext as well - but you're right, I understand it was different in terms of equipment originally with the full-screen data feeds. Separate from DVB, the old PAL OP42/47 teletext payload gets inserted into the MPEG-TS using SMPTE 2038[1] then when decoded, it would go into regular ancillary data of the uncompressed stream per ITU-R BT.1120-7[2]. The broadcast industry really loves standards[3]. [1] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7290549 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7290549 [2] https://www.freetv.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/OP-42-Closed-Captioning-Issue-5-May-2018.pdf https://www.freetv.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/OP-42-C... [3] https://xkcd.com/927 https://xkcd.com/927
- fredoralive 4y ago
  I was under the impression the "teletext" style ones still used teletext encoding, not EIA-608? It's basically just a data steam containing a single page of teletext rather than a whole magazine? AFAIK Sky Digital uses this approach (at least for SD), with a more modern looking decoder, and it certainly has colour support at least[1]. [1] Although DVB can contain a full teletext stream that can be reinserted into the SD analogue VBI by the receiver. Sky boxes supported that so on some channels you could just go to ye olde page 888, although I haven't a clue if any channels still do that (I don't have an old SD Sky setup around to look).
artandtechnic 4y ago
The Closed Captioning System for the Deaf - which became known as "608" - was always capable of displaying captions in color.* However, this faculty was largely underutilized, due to a variety of historical / technical reasons.** * Indeed, the first test broadcasts from 1979 included color. ** This is due to the design of the original 1980 "decoder," which only 'worked well' for color when installed inside an NTSC television. For the external adapters, grayscale instead of color was displayed. The only way to view color captions in color back in 1980/1981 was with a TeleCaption TV - and there was only one model ever made.

TechBro8615 4y ago

Something I've wondered... when politicians give speeches they often have some hand gesturing from a sign language interpreter standing next to them. But I've never understood why this is better than subtitles. If you're deaf then wouldn't you rather read text than follow sign language?

SanjayMehta 4y ago
I would guess that the sign language interpreter is translating in near real time in live speeches.
- kvm000 4y ago
  Live closed captions (text only) is very common and standard. Usually those are done by an external company listening in to an audio feed, and sending the data back. It used to be done with regular POTS lines and telnet, but now it’s obviously more common to use public internet based services like EEG iCap[1] I don’t know too much about it but I had read recently that ASL sign language can be thought of as a different language, rather than a direct equivalent to text subtitles[2]. [1] https://eegent.com/icap https://eegent.com/icap [2] https://imanyco.com/closed-captions-and-sign-language-not-a-substitute-for-one-another-1/ https://imanyco.com/closed-captions-and-sign-language-not-a-...
  - bloak 4y ago
    > I had read recently that ASL sign language can be thought of as a different language Yes, it is a different language. I've heard that ASL is rather similar to French Sign Language and quite different from BSL (British Sign Language). If someone were to translate something from English into ASL, and someone else were to translate the ASL back into English, I'd expect the result to be as different from the original as if they'd gone via some other language, like Italian, for example.
    - RajT88 4y ago
      There's a variety of running jokes that Italian is half sign language anyways. (Apparently derived from the fact that in Italy, there's quite a lot more non-verbal communication with hand gestures than other parts of the world)

ErikVandeWater 4y ago

Couldn't find anything about the use of (sic) or [sic]. Maybe they want leeway on that so as not to be offensive?

M2Ys4U 4y ago
The default position is that subtitles are a verbatim transcription of what was actually said, so there's no need for "[sic]".

sircastor 4y ago

I recently went through Netflix's subtitle guidelines when I was trying to figure out how to alter a subtitle file that I'd found that was pretty barebones. One of the interesting things about it was reading a rule, and then understanding the justification associated with the decision. Some of it is relatively arbitrary, but after you give it a bit of thought it makes sense.

jiggawatts 4y ago
None of it makes the slightest bit of sense. Netflix subtitles are HDR maximum white. On a modern TV while watching dark scenes like in the House of Dragons, it's like trying to look into a cave while someone is shining an LED torch in your face. Oh, and they won't let you chose arbitrary subtitle languages. Someone at Netflix wrote the code -- it wasn't an accident! -- to deliberately restrict the available languages to English for the the Hearing Impaired plus four of the most common local languages. Not speaking one of those four? Tough titties. Would you like to see English subtitles without "Bang!", "Loud breathing", and "Somber music"? Haha.. no. Someone made decisions at Netflix that made sense to them, and no one else.

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camyule 4y ago

Seems as relevant a place as any to highlight the lack of support for subtitles in BBC iPlayer on AppleTV: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/help/questions/accessibility/apple-tv-subtitles https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/help/questions/accessibility/a.... I work in a related industry so fully understand how these situations come to pass, but as a user it’s frustrating to say the least.

zinekeller 4y ago
Is it only Apple TV (and not on iPhone for example)? If it's Apple-wide I can imagine it but I'm curious what is the possible reason that BBC can't support having a separate subtitle renderer?
- fredoralive 4y ago
  I just checked, iPad has it (and using colour coding, as that has come up elsewhere in these threads). On Apple TV a subtitle menu appears in the time bar, but it doesn't seem to do anything in either the "Automatic" or "CC" options it gives? CC is a bit of an Americanism, perhaps it is running more directly though some Apple playback code that is more particular about subtitle formats? I suspect the ultimate case is probably low usage statistics not making it a priority. The icon / BBC logo didn't update at the same time as the iOS version, so I suspect its a separate codebase for some reason?
  - payamb 4y ago
    iPlayer on TV (across all platforms) is a generic web application, topped with a custom wrapper app (think webview) for each platform, responsible to hook platform’s native APIs to Web/JS APIs. I’m guessing there are some complications hooking Apple TV’s native subtitles APIs to relevant web APIs, and low usage statistics doesn’t help prioritising fixing the issue. Although the rumour is that they are working on a completely new Apple TV app.
    - dbbk 4y ago
      For most platforms this is true, but not Apple TV. I don't think they even allow it. iPlayer is definitely native code.

operator-name 4y ago

Only recently the UK government style guide was on the front page: A simple guide on words to avoid in government - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34104530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34104530

wpietri 4y ago

Ooh, nice. I especially appreciate seeing jokes mentioned in there as a specific case. I often watch with subtitles on and it's frustrating when a joke is spoiled by bad subtitle timing.

greggarious 4y ago

Do they have a guideline for WHEN subtitles are used? I remember sitting in a hostel common room the day after Mark Duggan was murdered[1] and half joking "Are they giving that Scottish guy subtitles as a joke?" and being told "This is a very serious situation". The previous night, the "mates" had been "joshing" me about how much more violent America is... then their eyes went wide when I was like "Well, that's a BRITISH cop car on fire, I'm switching to water... it's gonna be fun finding our way home... doesn't the queen live near here?" (To be fair, the "chavs" were very respectful once they heard an American accent and let us walk home, but part of that may have been because they didn't grok that they check us for guns at the airport and that rumors every bald black clad hacker is in the CIA are greatly exaggerated so they totally could have knifed us all and taken our iPods, lolllll.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Mark_Duggan#Shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Mark_Duggan#Shooti...

TheHappyOddish 4y ago
Are you ok?

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vonseel 4y ago

Man, a lot more goes into syncing the subtitles than I thought. I recently tried using bazarr to auto-sync subtitles, thinking that for some reason the autosync would improve things, even though I usually didn't have any problems. Well, after that, all my subtitles were horribly out of sync. FFsubsync did not work as magically as I expected. I ended up just resetting them all to their original versions and disabling automatic subtitle synchronization, which I will only attempt to use if the subs are out of sync for some reason. Note that I did not use ffsubsync directly, but IIRC that is what bazarr uses behind the scenes when "sync subtitles based on audio file instead of embedded subtitles" is checked.

pedalpete 4y ago

I didn't think about subtitles as a default for people who are hard of hearing. I thought most people would have a device that turns the captions on and off. The reason I even noticed this with BBC is because I was interviewed by Reuters a few years ago and the footage was spread through news throughout the world both online and on broadcast TV. A friend from the UK sent me a screenshot where the BBC had captioned me. They were the only channel to do this (that I saw or heard about) I'm Canadian, and we tend to have one of the easiest to understand clearly spoken accents. So it surprised me that BBC went to the trouble of adding captions. This makes sense now.