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Are finance and consulting really high status beyond the pay? Why? In theory it seems like they might be, but most of my peers in these fields are pretty uninsp

Are finance and consulting really high status beyond the pay? Why? In theory it seems like they might be, but most of my peers in these fields are pretty uninspiring

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
Can't speak for the US but here, "suit" jobs are generally held to higher regard even if the job no longer requires a suit. Fancy names and a history of good pay definitely help. If anything, IT is the outlier in "well-paid office jobs which garner lots of respect".
- switchbak 4y ago
  Suit jobs are only highly regarded amongst a subset of the population. I think the more you understand the realities of those jobs, the less appeal they have. There's also certain personality types drawn to those roles which isn't attractive for everyone. I used to look at engineers and think I missed out by not going down that road. Fast forward a few years and it turns out most engineers I talk to see the tech industry as being a much better draw (higher salaries, more jobs, etc).
- robocat 4y ago
  > IT is the outlier in "well-paid office jobs which garner lots of respect" That is a relatively modern thing - I thought IT was relatively unrespected even 20 years ago, although I am not in the US, so maybe different there. I suspect the change was occurring about when Zuckerberg became wealthy, maybe late 00’s? It is fucking bizarre to me seeing “geek” go mainstream (although commercialised geek is definitely different from traditional geek - maybe even incompatibly so?).
  - Falkon1313 4y ago
    I think it was at least 30 years ago. With the dot-com boom and impending Y2K disaster, tech had tons of high-paid jobs, and relatively few people had used computers much if at all. Tech 'wizards' were viewed as mysterious brilliant people who could do magic with a little bit of typing or tinkering.
patja 4y ago
They are extremely high status among friends and family who do not work in tech or IT, or among recent graduate peers who are struggling to get a white collar career going and stuck in service jobs or other jobs that will never break 100k/yr. For a lot of those folks, just hearing about the types of lunch and travel expenses enjoyed by consultants can imbue the job with high status.
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- hammock 4y ago
  Which gets at the uninspiring bit. Having experienced fancy lunches and travel, it ain’t all it’s made out to be and I doubt that anyone higher status than me whom I would actually aspire to, would give two hoots about it the way the people you describe do
quartesixte 4y ago
We live in a world where high pay = status. Not ideal if you aspire the world to be more Meaningful or Spiritual or what have you, but this is reality. And when in the United States alone the average salary hovers around $75K/yr, a 24 year old being able to command a near $150K base-salary (excluding bonuses) is in the eyes of many absolutely flying high. Add to that Finance/Consulting/Professional Services eats/live/travels/dresses in a manner that is high status in our society and the jobs quickly becomes a status symbol and attracts those who are willing to sacrifice some amount of passion for status or material wealth. It also is a field where it confers that wealth and status without Having to Know Someone or Be A Genetic Outlier In Physical Performance/Appearance. Lastly, survive long enough and climb the ladder high enough and you start gaining Power. That wealth no longer buys you things but rather connections, access, and influence. Finance sits in close proximity to many powerful people in the world, and thus by proxy also gains status. SWE/IT offers similar levels of wealth but unfortunately lacks that proximity to power (yet) and as a class of professionals seems to espouse cultural values that go against the ostentatious displays of wealth that the average person associates with high status. At the very least, no one is showing up to morning standups in a custom tailored suit. Source: my social circle growing up mostly consisted of working class immigrant families. Getting into a T20 University and breaking into Wall Street was the very definition of Making It.
- hammock 4y ago
  You are onto something with the proximity to power thing. A lot of understanding of the world unlocked for me once I started peeling apart wealth & power, how wealth /= power, and how power is the more important end (vs wealth). For example, if anything, someone with a lot of wealth has likely been selling away a lot of power in order to acquire the wealth. >It also is a field where it confers that wealth and status without Having to Know Someone I wouldn't have thought this. What in your view are those fields?
  - quartesixte 4y ago
    Hollywood is a prime example of this. Music industry is another. Book publishing is also rife with nepotism but in a non-familial way. Anything media related in general. Even journalism -- Anderson Cooper is a Vanderbilt. Chris Cuomo's father and brother both high ranking politicians.
giantg2 4y ago
I work for a financial company. The closer you get to the money, the more status you're expected to display. They expect you to have a BMW, Tesla, or similar. They expect you to hire a guy to perform any manual labor. They expect that you have a nice house in a nice area. If you don't have these things, you're looked down on and people assume you aren't successful/skilled. Just projecting the image is enough to push some people into a promotion.
- JauntTrooper 4y ago
  I think the 'need to impress people' is often used as an excuse to splurge. Maybe it's more expected for salesmen like financial advisors, or small business attorneys that are dealing with retail clients. I'm a fairly senior investment banker (Managing Director, group head), and I drive a 14 year old Honda. None of my co-workers or clients have ever seen my car or been to my house. I don't wear a watch. Some of my co-workers will wear bespoke clothes and flashy jewelry, but it's not required, and mid-tier conservative suits and shoes are fine.
  - throwaway2037 4y ago
    I agree. I see two types of finance MDs: Flashy and low key. It sounds like you are more low key. My sense about the flashy ones: Their net worth is surprisingly low because their burn rate is so high. The low key ones are loaded.
- robocat 4y ago
  What are the options to avoid the status treadmill? Faking displays seems hard (status markers are chosen for their difficulty to fake, presumably the easy faking is done by everyone, and I guess high cost if busted and competition to catch others out?) Can you be so competent that you can ignore the status rules? Presumably difficult, because competence is hard to measure, and competitively it is hard to achieve a significantly higher level of competence than others? A status player can have mistakes forgiven, but betting on competence requires you never make a misstep? Or do you just optimise for a level of acceptable status, and maximise savings? What happens to those that bug out?

Are finance and consulting really high status beyond the pay? Why? In theory it seems like they might be, but most of my peers in these fields are pretty uninspiring

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

Can't speak for the US but here, "suit" jobs are generally held to higher regard even if the job no longer requires a suit. Fancy names and a history of good pay definitely help. If anything, IT is the outlier in "well-paid office jobs which garner lots of respect".

switchbak 4y ago
Suit jobs are only highly regarded amongst a subset of the population. I think the more you understand the realities of those jobs, the less appeal they have. There's also certain personality types drawn to those roles which isn't attractive for everyone. I used to look at engineers and think I missed out by not going down that road. Fast forward a few years and it turns out most engineers I talk to see the tech industry as being a much better draw (higher salaries, more jobs, etc).
robocat 4y ago
> IT is the outlier in "well-paid office jobs which garner lots of respect" That is a relatively modern thing - I thought IT was relatively unrespected even 20 years ago, although I am not in the US, so maybe different there. I suspect the change was occurring about when Zuckerberg became wealthy, maybe late 00’s? It is fucking bizarre to me seeing “geek” go mainstream (although commercialised geek is definitely different from traditional geek - maybe even incompatibly so?).
- Falkon1313 4y ago
  I think it was at least 30 years ago. With the dot-com boom and impending Y2K disaster, tech had tons of high-paid jobs, and relatively few people had used computers much if at all. Tech 'wizards' were viewed as mysterious brilliant people who could do magic with a little bit of typing or tinkering.

patja 4y ago

They are extremely high status among friends and family who do not work in tech or IT, or among recent graduate peers who are struggling to get a white collar career going and stuck in service jobs or other jobs that will never break 100k/yr. For a lot of those folks, just hearing about the types of lunch and travel expenses enjoyed by consultants can imbue the job with high status.

deleted 4y ago
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- deleted 4y ago
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hammock 4y ago
Which gets at the uninspiring bit. Having experienced fancy lunches and travel, it ain’t all it’s made out to be and I doubt that anyone higher status than me whom I would actually aspire to, would give two hoots about it the way the people you describe do

quartesixte 4y ago

We live in a world where high pay = status. Not ideal if you aspire the world to be more Meaningful or Spiritual or what have you, but this is reality. And when in the United States alone the average salary hovers around $75K/yr, a 24 year old being able to command a near $150K base-salary (excluding bonuses) is in the eyes of many absolutely flying high. Add to that Finance/Consulting/Professional Services eats/live/travels/dresses in a manner that is high status in our society and the jobs quickly becomes a status symbol and attracts those who are willing to sacrifice some amount of passion for status or material wealth. It also is a field where it confers that wealth and status without Having to Know Someone or Be A Genetic Outlier In Physical Performance/Appearance. Lastly, survive long enough and climb the ladder high enough and you start gaining Power. That wealth no longer buys you things but rather connections, access, and influence. Finance sits in close proximity to many powerful people in the world, and thus by proxy also gains status. SWE/IT offers similar levels of wealth but unfortunately lacks that proximity to power (yet) and as a class of professionals seems to espouse cultural values that go against the ostentatious displays of wealth that the average person associates with high status. At the very least, no one is showing up to morning standups in a custom tailored suit. Source: my social circle growing up mostly consisted of working class immigrant families. Getting into a T20 University and breaking into Wall Street was the very definition of Making It.

hammock 4y ago
You are onto something with the proximity to power thing. A lot of understanding of the world unlocked for me once I started peeling apart wealth & power, how wealth /= power, and how power is the more important end (vs wealth). For example, if anything, someone with a lot of wealth has likely been selling away a lot of power in order to acquire the wealth. >It also is a field where it confers that wealth and status without Having to Know Someone I wouldn't have thought this. What in your view are those fields?
- quartesixte 4y ago
  Hollywood is a prime example of this. Music industry is another. Book publishing is also rife with nepotism but in a non-familial way. Anything media related in general. Even journalism -- Anderson Cooper is a Vanderbilt. Chris Cuomo's father and brother both high ranking politicians.

giantg2 4y ago

I work for a financial company. The closer you get to the money, the more status you're expected to display. They expect you to have a BMW, Tesla, or similar. They expect you to hire a guy to perform any manual labor. They expect that you have a nice house in a nice area. If you don't have these things, you're looked down on and people assume you aren't successful/skilled. Just projecting the image is enough to push some people into a promotion.

JauntTrooper 4y ago
I think the 'need to impress people' is often used as an excuse to splurge. Maybe it's more expected for salesmen like financial advisors, or small business attorneys that are dealing with retail clients. I'm a fairly senior investment banker (Managing Director, group head), and I drive a 14 year old Honda. None of my co-workers or clients have ever seen my car or been to my house. I don't wear a watch. Some of my co-workers will wear bespoke clothes and flashy jewelry, but it's not required, and mid-tier conservative suits and shoes are fine.
- throwaway2037 4y ago
  I agree. I see two types of finance MDs: Flashy and low key. It sounds like you are more low key. My sense about the flashy ones: Their net worth is surprisingly low because their burn rate is so high. The low key ones are loaded.
robocat 4y ago
What are the options to avoid the status treadmill? Faking displays seems hard (status markers are chosen for their difficulty to fake, presumably the easy faking is done by everyone, and I guess high cost if busted and competition to catch others out?) Can you be so competent that you can ignore the status rules? Presumably difficult, because competence is hard to measure, and competitively it is hard to achieve a significantly higher level of competence than others? A status player can have mistakes forgiven, but betting on competence requires you never make a misstep? Or do you just optimise for a level of acceptable status, and maximise savings? What happens to those that bug out?