7 ms·

Aha, technological solutions for social problems, who could think that would not work :) Driving a car in public traffic is very much a social situation. A win

by mpol 4y ago

Aha, technological solutions for social problems, who could think that would not work :) Driving a car in public traffic is very much a social situation. A wink here, a small hand or head gesture there. Even looking away and avoiding communication alltogether is part of social behaviour and tells something. Even the same gesture in a different context says something else. Parking a car, driving in congested traffic and just keeping a lane is all doable by technology. Beyond that it needs a different and social way of thinking.

AlexandrB 4y ago
Even without seeing other people's faces, you start to notice car "body language". For example, a car that is sticking close to a lane divider is probably about to try to change lanes. I always wondered to what extent (if any) self-driving AI tries to take this into account and whether, even legal, maneuvers by self-driving AI might be surprising to other drivers looking for these kinds of subtle signals.
- AlotOfReading 4y ago
  It's incorporated into autonomous vehicles in a few different ways (mainly through ML), but current state of the art isn't perfect. Humans are probably still better at reading those subtle patterns earlier.
  - wpietri 4y ago
    Is it incorporated both ways? That is, are autonomous vehicles trained to express intention through subtle movements?
    - jlund-molfese 4y ago
      Isn’t that what turn signals are for? Car body language is somewhat location-dependent. Rural Missouri has more cautious drivers and downtown NYC more aggressive drivers. Seems complicated to modify the car’s behavior at such a fine level, but perhaps it’ll happen once the bigger issues are worked out. On-board, personalized learning from your commute would be a neat selling point.
      - wpietri 4y ago
        Yes, social signals are location dependent. But driving in traffic is a social activity. And ignoring that strikes me as a big issue indeed.
      - kbrkbr 4y ago
        Even the enforcement of rules and the expectation on that are location dependent. Someone I know walked on a crosswalk in a southern european country, expecting that this will be honored like it is here. Ended up in hospital for two weeks. No driver there expected it.
    - AlotOfReading 4y ago
      AVs can seem to do that, but it's unintentional. I've never seen or heard anyone describe encoding intent with microbehaviors. The general preference is to make driving intentions as obvious as possible because some people don't pick up on subtleties and we still want to drive safely around them.
      - wpietri 4y ago
        Safety is an important base. But driving in traffic is a collaborative activity, so communication can't just be one way.
        AlotOfReading 4y ago
        The vehicles are intended to be very predictable for other drivers. I don't consider that to be synonymous with encoding intent into subtle microbehaviors. Instead it means straightforward behaviors like turn signals, appropriate speeds, avoiding last minute lane changes, etc.
        wpietri 4y ago
        One of the big ways people predict what cars are going to do is by reading intent through both macro- and micro-behaviors. Reading motion intent through subtle motion indicators is not just part of driving; it's something that happens all the time, and not just for humans. Automated vehicles are entering into an environment where that's the case, and that will not change.
    - r00fus 4y ago
      Having driven in the SF Bay with waymo and cruise vehicles - they definitely do signal a sort of extremely hesitant/cautious "body language". Slowing to a stop in an otherwise clear lane because it's cautious around shadows; Always ceding the initiative on 4-way stops, etc. It's like there's a (diligent but overly cautious) student driver behind the wheel.
082349872349872 4y ago
Militaries might be very interested in funding "self driving" vehicles that were not meant for public traffic. (much like maritime rights of way exist, but some navies prefer the simpler rule: "if it's grey, stay away")
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  Incidentally, those are often the Navies who lose ships due to getting rammed by a cruise ship [1], allied vessels [2] and shipping boats [3]. Might may make right, but can be expensive. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_patrol_boat_Naiguat%C3%A1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_patrol_boat_Naiguat... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne%E2%80%93Evans_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne%E2%80%93Evans_collis... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehime_Maru_and_USS_Greeneville_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehime_Maru_and_USS_Greeneville...
cramjabsyn 4y ago
Honestly drivers who stop in traffic or hold up intersections to make hand gestures and yield their right of way should be shunned and ticketed. This is a social norm of driving today that makes little sense. It’s actually quite dangerous to stop in the middle of traffic and wave at someone. And the person waving usually acts in an impatient and unpredictable way. They will give you about 5 seconds to lurch into the road before they get irritated and drive on. Or they could easily commit insurance fraud by luring you into an accident that appears to be your fault. If all followed the rules of the road it’d be a lot safer and also slightly easier to automate
- danuker 4y ago
  > by luring you into an accident that appears to be your fault. And it'd be your fault for not yielding to the idiot stopping in the middle of the road, not knowing what "right of way" means. These laws were made exactly to avoid the uncertainty of who goes first.
- nottorp 4y ago
  Actually I think the "zipper rule" is taught in driving school in some countries in Europe and applied informally in more. [I mean: when both the main road and the secondary road that has to yield are clogged, everyone on the main road lets one car from the secondary pass.] I've certainly applied it and benefited from it countless times.
  - Tomte 4y ago
    It's actually the law in Germany. We have a slightly different problem: people don't understand that the full capacity of the road should be used, zipping only shortly before the constriction. People switch lanes far too early, other people pass them (because the lane is free until the constriction), people who switched early feel cheated, everybody gets aggressive.
    - radlad 4y ago
      This occurs in the US too. It drives me crazy when a two-lane highway turns into a one-lane highway for miles, despite a free lane leading up to the accident. And any attempts to use the free lane will result in cars dangerously cutting you off.
johndevor 4y ago
Agreed. I always thought these AI cars needed extra lights or indicators to show intent, or at the very least show that it's in self-driving mode.
skybrian 4y ago
It’s useful but its importance seems exaggerated because often you can’t see the driver at all. For example, at night or in bad weather. The driver of a truck or bus can often be hard to see. Yet we can still drive if we can’t see other drivers.
audunw 4y ago
Regarding those subtle communications, I was blown away by this demo of Mobileyes system: https://youtu.be/RALg1pu9oxI https://youtu.be/RALg1pu9oxI It really feels like it's driving just like a human would in so many situations, and understanding the intention of pedestrians and cars driven by humans. Seems to me that they may be well ahead of Tesla, they just don't do much publicity or push it out to end users before it's actually ready.
uniformlyrandom 4y ago
You must be extroverted. Couple of counter-arguments: 1. This is completely optional. I can get from point A to point B without ever looking at another human face (and that is the way I like it, aha aha). 2. In real life, you may see some middle finger as well, especially if the traffic is bad.
unglaublich 4y ago
The fact that driving involves social behavior is exactly the reason why 35.000 people die each DAY in traffic. If a driver is not able to pay attention or makes a mistake, consequences can be fatal. We need to get rid of the social aspect of driving, and make it a pure, reliable system that doesn't depend on the mood or the alertness of billions of humans to not kill someone.
- mpol 4y ago
  That might only be done if you make it separate from people who are walking or cycling. So maybe a lifted monorail with cars? :) As long as people are on the street, it is a social situation with social behaviour.
amelius 4y ago
I'd rather have an AI that can cook meals. Because that would actually save me time (I have to spend time in the car anyway, and there's not much I can do than stare out of the window, as I would get car-sick otherwise).

by mpol 4y ago

AlexandrB 4y ago

Even without seeing other people's faces, you start to notice car "body language". For example, a car that is sticking close to a lane divider is probably about to try to change lanes. I always wondered to what extent (if any) self-driving AI tries to take this into account and whether, even legal, maneuvers by self-driving AI might be surprising to other drivers looking for these kinds of subtle signals.

AlotOfReading 4y ago
It's incorporated into autonomous vehicles in a few different ways (mainly through ML), but current state of the art isn't perfect. Humans are probably still better at reading those subtle patterns earlier.
- wpietri 4y ago
  Is it incorporated both ways? That is, are autonomous vehicles trained to express intention through subtle movements?
  - jlund-molfese 4y ago
    Isn’t that what turn signals are for? Car body language is somewhat location-dependent. Rural Missouri has more cautious drivers and downtown NYC more aggressive drivers. Seems complicated to modify the car’s behavior at such a fine level, but perhaps it’ll happen once the bigger issues are worked out. On-board, personalized learning from your commute would be a neat selling point.
    - wpietri 4y ago
      Yes, social signals are location dependent. But driving in traffic is a social activity. And ignoring that strikes me as a big issue indeed.
    - kbrkbr 4y ago
      Even the enforcement of rules and the expectation on that are location dependent. Someone I know walked on a crosswalk in a southern european country, expecting that this will be honored like it is here. Ended up in hospital for two weeks. No driver there expected it.
  - AlotOfReading 4y ago
    AVs can seem to do that, but it's unintentional. I've never seen or heard anyone describe encoding intent with microbehaviors. The general preference is to make driving intentions as obvious as possible because some people don't pick up on subtleties and we still want to drive safely around them.
    - wpietri 4y ago
      Safety is an important base. But driving in traffic is a collaborative activity, so communication can't just be one way.
      - AlotOfReading 4y ago
        The vehicles are intended to be very predictable for other drivers. I don't consider that to be synonymous with encoding intent into subtle microbehaviors. Instead it means straightforward behaviors like turn signals, appropriate speeds, avoiding last minute lane changes, etc.
        wpietri 4y ago
        One of the big ways people predict what cars are going to do is by reading intent through both macro- and micro-behaviors. Reading motion intent through subtle motion indicators is not just part of driving; it's something that happens all the time, and not just for humans. Automated vehicles are entering into an environment where that's the case, and that will not change.
  - r00fus 4y ago
    Having driven in the SF Bay with waymo and cruise vehicles - they definitely do signal a sort of extremely hesitant/cautious "body language". Slowing to a stop in an otherwise clear lane because it's cautious around shadows; Always ceding the initiative on 4-way stops, etc. It's like there's a (diligent but overly cautious) student driver behind the wheel.

082349872349872 4y ago

Militaries might be very interested in funding "self driving" vehicles that were not meant for public traffic. (much like maritime rights of way exist, but some navies prefer the simpler rule: "if it's grey, stay away")

DocTomoe 4y ago
Incidentally, those are often the Navies who lose ships due to getting rammed by a cruise ship [1], allied vessels [2] and shipping boats [3]. Might may make right, but can be expensive. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_patrol_boat_Naiguat%C3%A1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_patrol_boat_Naiguat... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne%E2%80%93Evans_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne%E2%80%93Evans_collis... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehime_Maru_and_USS_Greeneville_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehime_Maru_and_USS_Greeneville...

cramjabsyn 4y ago

Honestly drivers who stop in traffic or hold up intersections to make hand gestures and yield their right of way should be shunned and ticketed. This is a social norm of driving today that makes little sense. It’s actually quite dangerous to stop in the middle of traffic and wave at someone. And the person waving usually acts in an impatient and unpredictable way. They will give you about 5 seconds to lurch into the road before they get irritated and drive on. Or they could easily commit insurance fraud by luring you into an accident that appears to be your fault. If all followed the rules of the road it’d be a lot safer and also slightly easier to automate

danuker 4y ago
> by luring you into an accident that appears to be your fault. And it'd be your fault for not yielding to the idiot stopping in the middle of the road, not knowing what "right of way" means. These laws were made exactly to avoid the uncertainty of who goes first.
nottorp 4y ago
Actually I think the "zipper rule" is taught in driving school in some countries in Europe and applied informally in more. [I mean: when both the main road and the secondary road that has to yield are clogged, everyone on the main road lets one car from the secondary pass.] I've certainly applied it and benefited from it countless times.
- Tomte 4y ago
  It's actually the law in Germany. We have a slightly different problem: people don't understand that the full capacity of the road should be used, zipping only shortly before the constriction. People switch lanes far too early, other people pass them (because the lane is free until the constriction), people who switched early feel cheated, everybody gets aggressive.
  - radlad 4y ago
    This occurs in the US too. It drives me crazy when a two-lane highway turns into a one-lane highway for miles, despite a free lane leading up to the accident. And any attempts to use the free lane will result in cars dangerously cutting you off.

johndevor 4y ago

Agreed. I always thought these AI cars needed extra lights or indicators to show intent, or at the very least show that it's in self-driving mode.

skybrian 4y ago

It’s useful but its importance seems exaggerated because often you can’t see the driver at all. For example, at night or in bad weather. The driver of a truck or bus can often be hard to see. Yet we can still drive if we can’t see other drivers.

audunw 4y ago

Regarding those subtle communications, I was blown away by this demo of Mobileyes system: https://youtu.be/RALg1pu9oxI https://youtu.be/RALg1pu9oxI It really feels like it's driving just like a human would in so many situations, and understanding the intention of pedestrians and cars driven by humans. Seems to me that they may be well ahead of Tesla, they just don't do much publicity or push it out to end users before it's actually ready.

uniformlyrandom 4y ago

You must be extroverted. Couple of counter-arguments: 1. This is completely optional. I can get from point A to point B without ever looking at another human face (and that is the way I like it, aha aha). 2. In real life, you may see some middle finger as well, especially if the traffic is bad.

unglaublich 4y ago

The fact that driving involves social behavior is exactly the reason why 35.000 people die each DAY in traffic. If a driver is not able to pay attention or makes a mistake, consequences can be fatal. We need to get rid of the social aspect of driving, and make it a pure, reliable system that doesn't depend on the mood or the alertness of billions of humans to not kill someone.

mpol 4y ago
That might only be done if you make it separate from people who are walking or cycling. So maybe a lifted monorail with cars? :) As long as people are on the street, it is a social situation with social behaviour.

amelius 4y ago

I'd rather have an AI that can cook meals. Because that would actually save me time (I have to spend time in the car anyway, and there's not much I can do than stare out of the window, as I would get car-sick otherwise).