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> That is a sort of unity that is awfully hard to find today. We sacrificed that sort of unity -- for exactly what I still don't understand, but sacrificed it

> That is a sort of unity that is awfully hard to find today. We sacrificed that sort of unity -- for exactly what I still don't understand, but sacrificed it nonetheless. For a misguided sense of diversity, perhaps? American society can no longer even agree that working hard and being punctual are virtues, with a not-insignificant minority describing those characteristics as white supremacist. More broadly, as Kemi Badenoch of England put it eloquently, there is a loss of epistemic authority in the modern West, maybe especially in the Anglosphere. When people no longer believe that anything can be true, there can be no rallying cause around which we form a sense of unity.

prairiedogg 4y ago
I'm curious where I could find an example of someone saying that working hard and being punctual are white supremacist.
- agentwiggles 4y ago
  It's a real example of the kind of woke nonsense that gets bandied around by a certain segment of too-online activists (on both sides of the issue). Try a quick Google for something like "toxic whiteness objectivity sense of urgency" or similar and you should see some of the examples, and also commentary from both sides on the ideas. Disclaimer: I don't mean to imply that all the ideas under the umbrella of "wokeness" are nonsense, there's good and bad stuff in that category - but this particular example is, to my eye, pretty damn silly.
  - shrimp_emoji 4y ago
    It probably draws from the notion of non-Western cultures' polychronic time (vs. Western monochronic time): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronemics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronemics ``` The United States considers itself a monochronic society. This perception came about during the Industrial Revolution. Many Americans think of time as a precious resource not to be wasted or taken lightly.[5] As a communication scholar Edward T. Hall wrote regarding the American's viewpoint of time in the business world, "the schedule is sacred." Hall says that for monochronic cultures, such as the American culture, "time is tangible" and viewed as a commodity where "time is money" or "time is wasted." John Ivers, a professor of cultural paradigms, agrees with Edward Hall by stating, "In the market sense, monochronic people consume time."[6] The result of this perspective is that monochronic cultures place a paramount value on schedules, tasks, and "getting the job done."[full citation needed] Monochronic time orientation is very prominent in North European cultures, Italy, Greece, Spain, England, and the Scandinavian countries.[7] For example, a businessperson from the USA has a meeting scheduled, they then grow frustrated because they are waiting an hour for their partner to arrive. This is an example of a monochronic time oriented individual running in with a polychronic time oriented individual.[8] The interesting thing is that even though America is seen as one of the most monochronic countries it "has subcultures that may lean more to one side or the other of the monochronic-polychronic divide" within the states themselves. One can see this as they compare the southern states to the northern ones. John Ivers points this out with comparing waiters in the northern and southern restaurants. The waiters from the north are "to the point": they will "engage in little" and there is usually "no small talk." They are trying to be as efficient as possible, while those in the south will work towards "establishing a nice, friendly, micro-relationship" with the customer. They are still considerate of time, but it is not the most important goal in the south.[6] The culture of African Americans might also be seen as polychronic (see CP Time) ``` ``` A polychronic time system is a system where several things can be done at once, and wider view of time is exhibited and time is perceived in large fluid sections.[4] Examples of polychronic cultures are: Latin American, African, Arab, South Asian, and Native American cultures. These cultures' view on time can be connected to "natural rhythms, the earth, and the seasons". These analogies can be understood and compared because natural events can occur spontaneously and sporadically, just like polychronic time oriented people and polychronic time oriented cultures.[9] A scenario would be an Inuit working in a factory in Alaska, the superiors blow a whistle to alert for break times, etc. The Inuit are not fond of that method because they determine their times by the sea tides. How long it takes place and how long it lasts. In polychronic cultures, "time spent with others" is considered a "task" and of importance to one's daily regimen.[8] Polychronic cultures are much less focused on the preciseness of accounting for time. Polychronic cultures are more focused on tradition and relationships rather than on tasks. Polychronic societies have no problem being late for an appointment if they are deeply focused on some work or in a meeting that ran past schedule, because the concept of time is fluid and can easily expand or contract as need be. As a result, polychronic cultures have a much less formal perception of time. They are not ruled by precise calendars and schedules.[5] ```
- prottog 4y ago
  Here's a state employee working on the taxpayer's dime who didn't want to work too hard because doing so would further white supremacy: https://reason.com/2022/07/02/urgency-is-a-white-supremacy-value-oregon-health-authority/ https://reason.com/2022/07/02/urgency-is-a-white-supremacy-v... That's one example, but step into any nonprofit's office these days and you'll find plenty.
- tdehnel 4y ago
  Here’s the list: https://www.whitesupremacyculture.info/characteristics.html https://www.whitesupremacyculture.info/characteristics.html
- notwokeno 4y ago
  At least where I work we were forced to listen to a couple of lectures from people saying exactly this as part of the "DEI" initiative. The second one of course started with them reading the talmud at us. The whole thing felt like a parody of itself.
paulryanrogers 4y ago
Younger generations believe their elders have pulled up the ladder, and it appears they're correct on many dimensions. They're increasing unified in these beliefs, even if some go too far in their classification of injustices. Doubtful that just agreeing to be optimistic will actually improve things. Past generations faced their own challenges, and many solutions were born from discontent and not from naive optimism.
- prottog 4y ago
  I agree with you that they are increasingly unified in those beliefs, but being unified doesn't make the beliefs true. Do you think that they are true, that their elders have in fact pulled up the ladder behind them?
  - Fatnino 4y ago
    Of course they have. For example look at real estate. It used to be that a young person could get out of school, find a job, and save enough to buy a home within a year. But now many of those same formerly young people are holding on to their many homes and only renting them out or putting them on airbnb if they are lazier. (or even just letting them sit vacant). Anything to keep supply down and price up to the detriment of the current generation.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      Can you point to the time on this chart where any young person could own a house. https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2018/08/homeownership-by-age.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2018/08/homeownership... or perhaps this one going back to boomers born in 1940. https://www.prb.org/resources/u-s-homeownership-rates-fall-among-young-adults-african-americans/ https://www.prb.org/resources/u-s-homeownership-rates-fall-a... I do see a slow decline for young people, but no golden times of free houses. I suspect it might also have something to do with the factors of house size and urbanization. See: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/todays-new-homes-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-living-space-per-person-has-doubled-over-last-41-years/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/todays-new-homes-are-1000-squ... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Urban_and_rural_populations_in_the_United_States_(US_Census_Bureau_(1790_to_2010)),_OWID.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_the_United_Sta...
dragon-hn 4y ago
The fringe does not mean significant minority of people. I think you need to broaden your horizons if you think many people describe these characteristics as white supremacy.
- prottog 4y ago
  It's not as fringe as you think. Education at all levels (K-12 and higher ed) is increasingly teaching these concepts dogmatically, meaning in a decade or two such ideas will be much more widespread, as those students become adults. Those at the top of the hierarchy -- people in positions of power and influence at Fortune 500 companies and venerable institutions -- are the same, either believing in these ideas, parroting them because they feel they have to, or using them as a cudgel to knock others down. Again, in a decade or two all of that will flow downstream. Already, those who grew up in authoritarian countries and are now university professors are noticing how the adherence to the DEI party line is indistinguishable from adherence to the despot's party line 50 years ago; some true believers and many who mouth the words because they dare not.

prairiedogg 4y ago

I'm curious where I could find an example of someone saying that working hard and being punctual are white supremacist.

agentwiggles 4y ago
It's a real example of the kind of woke nonsense that gets bandied around by a certain segment of too-online activists (on both sides of the issue). Try a quick Google for something like "toxic whiteness objectivity sense of urgency" or similar and you should see some of the examples, and also commentary from both sides on the ideas. Disclaimer: I don't mean to imply that all the ideas under the umbrella of "wokeness" are nonsense, there's good and bad stuff in that category - but this particular example is, to my eye, pretty damn silly.
- shrimp_emoji 4y ago
  It probably draws from the notion of non-Western cultures' polychronic time (vs. Western monochronic time): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronemics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronemics ``` The United States considers itself a monochronic society. This perception came about during the Industrial Revolution. Many Americans think of time as a precious resource not to be wasted or taken lightly.[5] As a communication scholar Edward T. Hall wrote regarding the American's viewpoint of time in the business world, "the schedule is sacred." Hall says that for monochronic cultures, such as the American culture, "time is tangible" and viewed as a commodity where "time is money" or "time is wasted." John Ivers, a professor of cultural paradigms, agrees with Edward Hall by stating, "In the market sense, monochronic people consume time."[6] The result of this perspective is that monochronic cultures place a paramount value on schedules, tasks, and "getting the job done."[full citation needed] Monochronic time orientation is very prominent in North European cultures, Italy, Greece, Spain, England, and the Scandinavian countries.[7] For example, a businessperson from the USA has a meeting scheduled, they then grow frustrated because they are waiting an hour for their partner to arrive. This is an example of a monochronic time oriented individual running in with a polychronic time oriented individual.[8] The interesting thing is that even though America is seen as one of the most monochronic countries it "has subcultures that may lean more to one side or the other of the monochronic-polychronic divide" within the states themselves. One can see this as they compare the southern states to the northern ones. John Ivers points this out with comparing waiters in the northern and southern restaurants. The waiters from the north are "to the point": they will "engage in little" and there is usually "no small talk." They are trying to be as efficient as possible, while those in the south will work towards "establishing a nice, friendly, micro-relationship" with the customer. They are still considerate of time, but it is not the most important goal in the south.[6] The culture of African Americans might also be seen as polychronic (see CP Time) ``` ``` A polychronic time system is a system where several things can be done at once, and wider view of time is exhibited and time is perceived in large fluid sections.[4] Examples of polychronic cultures are: Latin American, African, Arab, South Asian, and Native American cultures. These cultures' view on time can be connected to "natural rhythms, the earth, and the seasons". These analogies can be understood and compared because natural events can occur spontaneously and sporadically, just like polychronic time oriented people and polychronic time oriented cultures.[9] A scenario would be an Inuit working in a factory in Alaska, the superiors blow a whistle to alert for break times, etc. The Inuit are not fond of that method because they determine their times by the sea tides. How long it takes place and how long it lasts. In polychronic cultures, "time spent with others" is considered a "task" and of importance to one's daily regimen.[8] Polychronic cultures are much less focused on the preciseness of accounting for time. Polychronic cultures are more focused on tradition and relationships rather than on tasks. Polychronic societies have no problem being late for an appointment if they are deeply focused on some work or in a meeting that ran past schedule, because the concept of time is fluid and can easily expand or contract as need be. As a result, polychronic cultures have a much less formal perception of time. They are not ruled by precise calendars and schedules.[5] ```
prottog 4y ago
Here's a state employee working on the taxpayer's dime who didn't want to work too hard because doing so would further white supremacy: https://reason.com/2022/07/02/urgency-is-a-white-supremacy-value-oregon-health-authority/ https://reason.com/2022/07/02/urgency-is-a-white-supremacy-v... That's one example, but step into any nonprofit's office these days and you'll find plenty.
tdehnel 4y ago
Here’s the list: https://www.whitesupremacyculture.info/characteristics.html https://www.whitesupremacyculture.info/characteristics.html
notwokeno 4y ago
At least where I work we were forced to listen to a couple of lectures from people saying exactly this as part of the "DEI" initiative. The second one of course started with them reading the talmud at us. The whole thing felt like a parody of itself.

paulryanrogers 4y ago

Younger generations believe their elders have pulled up the ladder, and it appears they're correct on many dimensions. They're increasing unified in these beliefs, even if some go too far in their classification of injustices. Doubtful that just agreeing to be optimistic will actually improve things. Past generations faced their own challenges, and many solutions were born from discontent and not from naive optimism.

prottog 4y ago
I agree with you that they are increasingly unified in those beliefs, but being unified doesn't make the beliefs true. Do you think that they are true, that their elders have in fact pulled up the ladder behind them?
- Fatnino 4y ago
  Of course they have. For example look at real estate. It used to be that a young person could get out of school, find a job, and save enough to buy a home within a year. But now many of those same formerly young people are holding on to their many homes and only renting them out or putting them on airbnb if they are lazier. (or even just letting them sit vacant). Anything to keep supply down and price up to the detriment of the current generation.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Can you point to the time on this chart where any young person could own a house. https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2018/08/homeownership-by-age.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2018/08/homeownership... or perhaps this one going back to boomers born in 1940. https://www.prb.org/resources/u-s-homeownership-rates-fall-among-young-adults-african-americans/ https://www.prb.org/resources/u-s-homeownership-rates-fall-a... I do see a slow decline for young people, but no golden times of free houses. I suspect it might also have something to do with the factors of house size and urbanization. See: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/todays-new-homes-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-living-space-per-person-has-doubled-over-last-41-years/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/todays-new-homes-are-1000-squ... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Urban_and_rural_populations_in_the_United_States_(US_Census_Bureau_(1790_to_2010)),_OWID.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_the_United_Sta...

dragon-hn 4y ago

The fringe does not mean significant minority of people. I think you need to broaden your horizons if you think many people describe these characteristics as white supremacy.

prottog 4y ago
It's not as fringe as you think. Education at all levels (K-12 and higher ed) is increasingly teaching these concepts dogmatically, meaning in a decade or two such ideas will be much more widespread, as those students become adults. Those at the top of the hierarchy -- people in positions of power and influence at Fortune 500 companies and venerable institutions -- are the same, either believing in these ideas, parroting them because they feel they have to, or using them as a cudgel to knock others down. Again, in a decade or two all of that will flow downstream. Already, those who grew up in authoritarian countries and are now university professors are noticing how the adherence to the DEI party line is indistinguishable from adherence to the despot's party line 50 years ago; some true believers and many who mouth the words because they dare not.