7 ms·

Tesla ‘full self-driving’ triggered an eight-car crash, a driver tells police

78 points by petilon 4y ago

thinking4real 4y ago
I’m sure there’s no incentive for a driver who’s responsible for an eight car crash to pass buck
- tosc 4y ago
  Presumably the same incentive as Tesla has.
  - google234123 4y ago
    Same? It’s way more liability to handle as a single person than a large company. So
    - smt88 4y ago
      If Tesla admits "FSD" can cause this accident, they admit that it can cause any Tesla accident. It could result in millions in fines and potentially much more in lost sales.
    - bdcravens 4y ago
      Publicly traded companies have fiduciary duty to protect their reputation.
  - thinking4real 4y ago
    And the article doesn’t state Tesla is making the opposing claim. If it were I’d be equally critical of that press report. Or maybe to the folks here “some guy claims” is a valid source. Maybe I’m in the wrong lol
    - tosc 4y ago
      “Some guy claims”, is a valid source when the claim is credible. We can’t be sure it’s true of course, until we learn more, but it’s just silly to dismiss it out of hand.
- capitalsigma 4y ago
  Tesla should have logs that show the driver is responsible for the braking, if so
- Gigachad 4y ago
  You can’t even be responsible for an 8 car crash like this, because they shifted lanes, they are responsible for the first car, but the 6-7 after that are their own faults for tailgating.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    It's really a travesty of how financial liability is handled in this country that your comment is not falsehood. If this were a normal negligence tort vs an automobile crash there would be a very strong case to be made that the driver who set the whole chain of events in motion is responsible for all of it under something akin to the eggshell skull rule.
    - watwut 4y ago
      no. The driver is responsible to keep speed and distance from previous car such that he/she can stop if necessary. When you hit someone from behind, it is your fault, because you should have been driving more slowly or further away And that is also absolutely correct way of evaluating it - the one in the back controls attention, speed and distance. The one in front does not.
      - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
        >no. The driver is responsible to keep speed and distance from previous car such that he/she can stop if necessary. And pretty much every state also has a law drivers not to do things like panic stop in the highway without a reason. The rules of the road have redundant responsibility baked in almost everywhere on purpose We abridge a lot of normal rules and legal doctrine for handling civil liability when it comes to car stuff because we have to have quick rules of thumb to deal with the sheer volume of incidents. What you are arguing in favor of here is a very sloppy rule of thumb and such advocacy is likely because you have assessed yourself to be far more likely to be the source of a multi-car wreck than one of the people caught up in it. Ask yourself, if you brake checked someone and caused a chain reaction would you be morally culpable? The overwhelming majority of the population would say yes. So why should you not be financially culpable? Now ask yourself if instead of brake checking someone you were stopping because a child wandered into the road how would that change things. On what grounds do you justify using the same allocation of liability for both these situations?
clnq 4y ago
> Tesla’s driver-assist technologies, Autopilot and “full self-driving” are already being investigated by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration following reports of unexpected braking that occurs “without warning, at random, and often repeatedly in a single drive.” > The agency has received hundreds of complaints from Tesla drivers. Some have described near crashes and concerns about their safety. This summer NHTSA upgraded the investigation to what it calls an engineering analysis, an indication that it’s seriously considering a recall. Very curious about how Tesla could continue to justify selling full self driving if NHTSA demanded a recall.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Your quoted quote states they didn’t demand a recall, only that they’re seriously considering it. It’s not a recall until it’s a recall. https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/automated-vehicles-safety https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/automated-vehicl... (NHTSA: Automated Vehicles for Safety) > If a vehicle is driving itself, who is liable if the vehicle crashes? How is the vehicle insured? > It is vital to emphasize that drivers will continue to share driving responsibilities for the foreseeable future and must remain engaged and attentive to the driving task and the road ahead with the consumer available technologies today. However, questions about liability and insurance are among many important questions, in addition to technical considerations that, policymakers are working to address before automated driving systems reach their maturity and are available to the public.
  - bravetraveler 4y ago
    I believe that's why it would be phrased 'could ... if' instead of 'will ... as'
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
      That's interesting, I actually read it the unintended way the first go. I guess 'would ... if' might be more clear, but it's also kinda a different question.
seltzered_ 4y ago
The article doesn't say it but I believe this issue (of going from highway speed suddenly down to ~20mph) has been called 'phantom braking' by Tesla owners.
- somedude895 4y ago
  Yep, and after my five years of owning a Model S they still haven't been able to fix it. At least it keeps me from getting too complacent when having AP activated. It's not really a full-on slamming of the brakes for me, just a very brisk slowdown. And I can usually catch it after slowing down by like 20kph. But yeah, AP/FSD really hasn't been making any progress and I assume legacy automakers' distance- and lane-keeping systems must be safer and more reliable than Tesla's is by now.
paul7986 4y ago
How many here believe todays robot cars are fully safe and why? Because Tesla/Musk says so..he says a lot on Twitter and changes his mind constantly! Personally I'd never trust him with my life and the lives of other drivers surrounding me. Hes a showman/car salesman.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  I can only speak from my experience; I’ve driven over 100k miles with Autopilot (2.5 rev hardware, ‘18 Model S) over the last 4.5 years, sometimes at speeds upwards of 70mph-80mph through mountainous terrain in driving rain at night (both in Appalachia and the Rockies). Disengagement is rare, and I will purposely push the vehicle harder to find its limits. Fully safe? Hardly, nothing is risk free, but 38k people a year die in accidents caused by humans, so the bar is not perfection. It’s your average human, which is fairly terrible at the task. They get tired, they don’t pay attention, they drink too much and get behind the wheel, and so on. https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.tesladeaths.com/ Tesla Deaths Total as of 12/21/2022: 335 Tesla Autopilot Deaths Count: 19 (my note: this total death count is 1/5th the amount of people who die daily [104] from human caused auto accidents) I trust the vehicles and Tesla engineers enough to put my family in them. The evidence is clear how well they stand up in an accident, receiving highest crash test marks both in the US and Europe (with the Model Y with the Vision only stack receiving some of the highest Euro NCAP scores ever), which I can confidently decision with versus emotion about its leadership team. I really don’t care what Musk says, as long as my family is going to walk away from the worst accidents they might encounter, and the data shows they likely will. > Euro NCAP Secretary General Michiel van Ratingen issued a statement praising the Model Y for its stellar safety scores. “Congratulations to Tesla for a truly outstanding, record-breaking Model Y rating. Tesla has shown that nothing but the best is good enough for them, and we hope to see them continue to aspire to that goal in the future,” van Ratingen remarked. https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-s-receives-5-star-euro-ncap-safety-rating https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-s-receives-5-star-euro-ncap... https://evannex.com/blogs/news/tree-falls-on-a-tesla-model-3-glass-roof-occupants-walk-away-without-injury-video https://evannex.com/blogs/news/tree-falls-on-a-tesla-model-3... https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-vision-model-y-highest-euro-ncap-score-new-protocol/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-vision-model-y-highest-euro-... (No experience with the “full self driving” software stack, so I apologize if your questions were scoped specifically to that constraint)
aquarium87 4y ago
My uncle works for an insurance company, and a tesla is one of the absolute cheapest vehicle to insure. I hear all these "tesla hit pieces", but my understanding is that they are much safer than human drivers, and insurance reflects that. I don't see the issue as autopilot killing people, I see the issue as its saving lives, but the insurance aspect and AI aspect and responsibility need to be sorted out.
- zzzeek 4y ago
  this sounded off, as I've driven my dad's Tesla and its combination of blazing speed and total silence, not to mention that Teslas are well within the high end luxury category, does not seem like insurance would be cheap. They are also expensive to repair if accidents occur. Looked it up and found https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/insurance/tesla-insurance https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/insurance/tesla-insurance "The high cost of a Tesla doesn’t stop at its price tag. Insurance for a Tesla tends to be significantly more expensive than that of other popular vehicles, despite high safety ratings." "Still, rates can vary drastically, even among different Tesla models. Below are the average annual insurance rates by Tesla model, ranked from cheapest to most expensive:" Model Y ($2,040). Model 3 ($2,115). Model S ($3,008). Model X ($3,044). That is not cheap at all. I own three cars at the moment, one of which is also a new (non-Tesla) EV and I pay $3600 /yr in total.
  - reducesuffering 4y ago
    I can't believe people pay these carrying costs. Two Toyota's in CA is $600/yr for me, 100k/300k bodily, 100k property.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - zzzeek 4y ago
      geez what insurance company is that
gamblor956 4y ago
The total deaths caused by Tesla AP/FSD is 1900% higher than the self-driving of every other automaker in the world combined. The total number of accidents caused by Tesla AP/FSD is 2.5x higher than the company with the next worst self-driving system, and is more than 60x higher than Toyota's self-driving systems. Anecdotally speaking, on LA freeways self-driving Teslas are easy to spot: they drive like drunk teenagers getting behind the wheel the first time. My coworker has a Tesla and had so many disengagements on his daily commute (3+ each way) that he no longer uses the system. Normalizing the data (i.e., scaling it up), Teslas are only safer than drunk drivers.
- zamadatix 4y ago
  I’m not a fan of Tesla’s self driving claims either (I specifically avoided a Tesla completely when buying this year) but total deaths seems like the least relevant piece of information that could be used here. It needs some sort of adjustment like at least deaths/mile or similar before throwing up comparisons. As is one can’t tell if this is just like saying cities are ridiculously unsafe because most people die in them vs the rest of the entire world combined or if it’s actually how much worse it is.
  - watwut 4y ago
    The additional aspect is that other manufacturers do not exaggerate capabilities that much - and consequently their customers are less likely to engage autopilot in situation where it is about to perform badly.
- jjcon 4y ago
  I imagine Tesla has more than 19x the self-driving miles of every other automaker in the world combined too.
  - willio58 4y ago
    Yeah we need deaths per ownership or something.
BooneJS 4y ago
I have a MY with FSD, and I do not trust it all. I don’t want to make excuses for the car, but if you’re paying attention then your car won’t scrub 35 mph and cause a pileup. My experience is I can hit the accelerator within 5-8 mph and the instant acceleration can recover. I don’t trust FSD, so therefore I can recover quickly.
- willio58 4y ago
  I’ve been in a Model 3 with 1 fender bender and a near head-on collision due to using FSD in just two days. I wouldn’t trust FSD myself for a few more years at least. A major breakthrough has to happen because the current version feels not safe enough to be in public beta.
djmips 4y ago
I guess all 8 cars were Teslas with FSD enabled because obviously attentive human drivers would have been paying attention with adequate distance and been able to handle the sudden slow down.
- watwut 4y ago
  New cars without self driving have assists to avoid exactly these kind of crashes - it takes over and brakes for you.
jacquesm 4y ago
Tesla stock taking another beating today ($126 right now), is that because of this article or is Elon selling again? Was Elon aware that this would hit the news last week? If so that might explain some of his stock sales.
- v0idzer0 4y ago
  These articles pop up regularly and don’t move the stock. It’s not related. There have also been times when it’s reported autopilot caused the accident but NHS investigation reveals it wasn’t even engaged.
  - sgerenser 4y ago
    I'm not sure there's not at least some correlation. When there was lots of upwards momentum with TSLA, then certainly these kinds of articles didn't have much sway. But with everyone apparently looking for a reason to sell, news like this can certainly add to the pressure. But in general, yes, TSLA has been taking a beating for the last few weeks.

78 points by petilon 4y ago

thinking4real 4y ago

I’m sure there’s no incentive for a driver who’s responsible for an eight car crash to pass buck

tosc 4y ago
Presumably the same incentive as Tesla has.
- google234123 4y ago
  Same? It’s way more liability to handle as a single person than a large company. So
  - smt88 4y ago
    If Tesla admits "FSD" can cause this accident, they admit that it can cause any Tesla accident. It could result in millions in fines and potentially much more in lost sales.
  - bdcravens 4y ago
    Publicly traded companies have fiduciary duty to protect their reputation.
- thinking4real 4y ago
  And the article doesn’t state Tesla is making the opposing claim. If it were I’d be equally critical of that press report. Or maybe to the folks here “some guy claims” is a valid source. Maybe I’m in the wrong lol
  - tosc 4y ago
    “Some guy claims”, is a valid source when the claim is credible. We can’t be sure it’s true of course, until we learn more, but it’s just silly to dismiss it out of hand.
capitalsigma 4y ago
Tesla should have logs that show the driver is responsible for the braking, if so
Gigachad 4y ago
You can’t even be responsible for an 8 car crash like this, because they shifted lanes, they are responsible for the first car, but the 6-7 after that are their own faults for tailgating.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  It's really a travesty of how financial liability is handled in this country that your comment is not falsehood. If this were a normal negligence tort vs an automobile crash there would be a very strong case to be made that the driver who set the whole chain of events in motion is responsible for all of it under something akin to the eggshell skull rule.
  - watwut 4y ago
    no. The driver is responsible to keep speed and distance from previous car such that he/she can stop if necessary. When you hit someone from behind, it is your fault, because you should have been driving more slowly or further away And that is also absolutely correct way of evaluating it - the one in the back controls attention, speed and distance. The one in front does not.
    - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
      >no. The driver is responsible to keep speed and distance from previous car such that he/she can stop if necessary. And pretty much every state also has a law drivers not to do things like panic stop in the highway without a reason. The rules of the road have redundant responsibility baked in almost everywhere on purpose We abridge a lot of normal rules and legal doctrine for handling civil liability when it comes to car stuff because we have to have quick rules of thumb to deal with the sheer volume of incidents. What you are arguing in favor of here is a very sloppy rule of thumb and such advocacy is likely because you have assessed yourself to be far more likely to be the source of a multi-car wreck than one of the people caught up in it. Ask yourself, if you brake checked someone and caused a chain reaction would you be morally culpable? The overwhelming majority of the population would say yes. So why should you not be financially culpable? Now ask yourself if instead of brake checking someone you were stopping because a child wandered into the road how would that change things. On what grounds do you justify using the same allocation of liability for both these situations?

clnq 4y ago

> Tesla’s driver-assist technologies, Autopilot and “full self-driving” are already being investigated by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration following reports of unexpected braking that occurs “without warning, at random, and often repeatedly in a single drive.” > The agency has received hundreds of complaints from Tesla drivers. Some have described near crashes and concerns about their safety. This summer NHTSA upgraded the investigation to what it calls an engineering analysis, an indication that it’s seriously considering a recall. Very curious about how Tesla could continue to justify selling full self driving if NHTSA demanded a recall.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
Your quoted quote states they didn’t demand a recall, only that they’re seriously considering it. It’s not a recall until it’s a recall. https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/automated-vehicles-safety https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/automated-vehicl... (NHTSA: Automated Vehicles for Safety) > If a vehicle is driving itself, who is liable if the vehicle crashes? How is the vehicle insured? > It is vital to emphasize that drivers will continue to share driving responsibilities for the foreseeable future and must remain engaged and attentive to the driving task and the road ahead with the consumer available technologies today. However, questions about liability and insurance are among many important questions, in addition to technical considerations that, policymakers are working to address before automated driving systems reach their maturity and are available to the public.
- bravetraveler 4y ago
  I believe that's why it would be phrased 'could ... if' instead of 'will ... as'
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
    That's interesting, I actually read it the unintended way the first go. I guess 'would ... if' might be more clear, but it's also kinda a different question.

seltzered_ 4y ago

The article doesn't say it but I believe this issue (of going from highway speed suddenly down to ~20mph) has been called 'phantom braking' by Tesla owners.

somedude895 4y ago
Yep, and after my five years of owning a Model S they still haven't been able to fix it. At least it keeps me from getting too complacent when having AP activated. It's not really a full-on slamming of the brakes for me, just a very brisk slowdown. And I can usually catch it after slowing down by like 20kph. But yeah, AP/FSD really hasn't been making any progress and I assume legacy automakers' distance- and lane-keeping systems must be safer and more reliable than Tesla's is by now.

paul7986 4y ago

How many here believe todays robot cars are fully safe and why? Because Tesla/Musk says so..he says a lot on Twitter and changes his mind constantly! Personally I'd never trust him with my life and the lives of other drivers surrounding me. Hes a showman/car salesman.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
I can only speak from my experience; I’ve driven over 100k miles with Autopilot (2.5 rev hardware, ‘18 Model S) over the last 4.5 years, sometimes at speeds upwards of 70mph-80mph through mountainous terrain in driving rain at night (both in Appalachia and the Rockies). Disengagement is rare, and I will purposely push the vehicle harder to find its limits. Fully safe? Hardly, nothing is risk free, but 38k people a year die in accidents caused by humans, so the bar is not perfection. It’s your average human, which is fairly terrible at the task. They get tired, they don’t pay attention, they drink too much and get behind the wheel, and so on. https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.tesladeaths.com/ Tesla Deaths Total as of 12/21/2022: 335 Tesla Autopilot Deaths Count: 19 (my note: this total death count is 1/5th the amount of people who die daily [104] from human caused auto accidents) I trust the vehicles and Tesla engineers enough to put my family in them. The evidence is clear how well they stand up in an accident, receiving highest crash test marks both in the US and Europe (with the Model Y with the Vision only stack receiving some of the highest Euro NCAP scores ever), which I can confidently decision with versus emotion about its leadership team. I really don’t care what Musk says, as long as my family is going to walk away from the worst accidents they might encounter, and the data shows they likely will. > Euro NCAP Secretary General Michiel van Ratingen issued a statement praising the Model Y for its stellar safety scores. “Congratulations to Tesla for a truly outstanding, record-breaking Model Y rating. Tesla has shown that nothing but the best is good enough for them, and we hope to see them continue to aspire to that goal in the future,” van Ratingen remarked. https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-s-receives-5-star-euro-ncap-safety-rating https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-s-receives-5-star-euro-ncap... https://evannex.com/blogs/news/tree-falls-on-a-tesla-model-3-glass-roof-occupants-walk-away-without-injury-video https://evannex.com/blogs/news/tree-falls-on-a-tesla-model-3... https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-vision-model-y-highest-euro-ncap-score-new-protocol/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-vision-model-y-highest-euro-... (No experience with the “full self driving” software stack, so I apologize if your questions were scoped specifically to that constraint)

aquarium87 4y ago

My uncle works for an insurance company, and a tesla is one of the absolute cheapest vehicle to insure. I hear all these "tesla hit pieces", but my understanding is that they are much safer than human drivers, and insurance reflects that. I don't see the issue as autopilot killing people, I see the issue as its saving lives, but the insurance aspect and AI aspect and responsibility need to be sorted out.

zzzeek 4y ago
this sounded off, as I've driven my dad's Tesla and its combination of blazing speed and total silence, not to mention that Teslas are well within the high end luxury category, does not seem like insurance would be cheap. They are also expensive to repair if accidents occur. Looked it up and found https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/insurance/tesla-insurance https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/insurance/tesla-insurance "The high cost of a Tesla doesn’t stop at its price tag. Insurance for a Tesla tends to be significantly more expensive than that of other popular vehicles, despite high safety ratings." "Still, rates can vary drastically, even among different Tesla models. Below are the average annual insurance rates by Tesla model, ranked from cheapest to most expensive:" Model Y ($2,040). Model 3 ($2,115). Model S ($3,008). Model X ($3,044). That is not cheap at all. I own three cars at the moment, one of which is also a new (non-Tesla) EV and I pay $3600 /yr in total.
- reducesuffering 4y ago
  I can't believe people pay these carrying costs. Two Toyota's in CA is $600/yr for me, 100k/300k bodily, 100k property.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - zzzeek 4y ago
    geez what insurance company is that

gamblor956 4y ago

The total deaths caused by Tesla AP/FSD is 1900% higher than the self-driving of every other automaker in the world combined. The total number of accidents caused by Tesla AP/FSD is 2.5x higher than the company with the next worst self-driving system, and is more than 60x higher than Toyota's self-driving systems. Anecdotally speaking, on LA freeways self-driving Teslas are easy to spot: they drive like drunk teenagers getting behind the wheel the first time. My coworker has a Tesla and had so many disengagements on his daily commute (3+ each way) that he no longer uses the system. Normalizing the data (i.e., scaling it up), Teslas are only safer than drunk drivers.

zamadatix 4y ago
I’m not a fan of Tesla’s self driving claims either (I specifically avoided a Tesla completely when buying this year) but total deaths seems like the least relevant piece of information that could be used here. It needs some sort of adjustment like at least deaths/mile or similar before throwing up comparisons. As is one can’t tell if this is just like saying cities are ridiculously unsafe because most people die in them vs the rest of the entire world combined or if it’s actually how much worse it is.
- watwut 4y ago
  The additional aspect is that other manufacturers do not exaggerate capabilities that much - and consequently their customers are less likely to engage autopilot in situation where it is about to perform badly.
jjcon 4y ago
I imagine Tesla has more than 19x the self-driving miles of every other automaker in the world combined too.
- willio58 4y ago
  Yeah we need deaths per ownership or something.

BooneJS 4y ago

I have a MY with FSD, and I do not trust it all. I don’t want to make excuses for the car, but if you’re paying attention then your car won’t scrub 35 mph and cause a pileup. My experience is I can hit the accelerator within 5-8 mph and the instant acceleration can recover. I don’t trust FSD, so therefore I can recover quickly.

willio58 4y ago
I’ve been in a Model 3 with 1 fender bender and a near head-on collision due to using FSD in just two days. I wouldn’t trust FSD myself for a few more years at least. A major breakthrough has to happen because the current version feels not safe enough to be in public beta.

djmips 4y ago

I guess all 8 cars were Teslas with FSD enabled because obviously attentive human drivers would have been paying attention with adequate distance and been able to handle the sudden slow down.

watwut 4y ago
New cars without self driving have assists to avoid exactly these kind of crashes - it takes over and brakes for you.

jacquesm 4y ago

Tesla stock taking another beating today ($126 right now), is that because of this article or is Elon selling again? Was Elon aware that this would hit the news last week? If so that might explain some of his stock sales.

v0idzer0 4y ago
These articles pop up regularly and don’t move the stock. It’s not related. There have also been times when it’s reported autopilot caused the accident but NHS investigation reveals it wasn’t even engaged.
- sgerenser 4y ago
  I'm not sure there's not at least some correlation. When there was lots of upwards momentum with TSLA, then certainly these kinds of articles didn't have much sway. But with everyone apparently looking for a reason to sell, news like this can certainly add to the pressure. But in general, yes, TSLA has been taking a beating for the last few weeks.