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you ought to tell that to the millions of people across the developing world who suddenly have a means of resistance to their governments debasing their savings

you ought to tell that to the millions of people across the developing world who suddenly have a means of resistance to their governments debasing their savings: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Venezuela_inflation_on_the_black_market_%28DolarToday%29_on_a_logarithmic_scale.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Venezuel... crypto is many things, but the single most important is demonstrating cryptography as a foundation for robust digital rights. we can guarantee digital rights in a way that require complex and frequently corrupt institutional enforcement in the real world. this is a mind-bending achievement and we're only at the very outset

epolanski 4y ago
The idea that money (which is made as a mean of transmission between goods) should be hoarded is stupid. No wealthy person in this planet got wealthier by hoarding pieces of paper with pictures of national heroes, but by investing it in gold, art, land, real estate, stock markets and many others. If you and some other people agree that specific hashes on a specific blockchain have some value for you and avoid "debasing your savings" you're free to hoard them.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- imtringued 4y ago
  The problem isn't necessarily hoarding but rather governments decided to only have one legal tender and sabotaging that legal tender is effectively the same as sabotaging the entire economy. Hoarding is a kind of sabotage but if people hoard something that isn't legal tender they are not threatening the economy. The wealthy might be hoarding Lamborghini's but we can always build more cars. Can't do that with money unless the government or a commercial bank does it.
JofArnold 4y ago
Except that's not really what's happening. In Venezuela the only people using crypto to any extent is people who already are tech savvy and have the skills to work around these limitations. The "unbanked" however still don't use crypto and hardly any shops are using it because of the volatility and the long times to approve transactions. It's good for payments of services (e.g. utilities) I hear, however. But I think more crucially is that what's increasingly looking like "the only good use of crypto" is really a consequence of social issues a similar way to how cars are very popular in countries with poor infrastructure (e.g. USA). If the country gets its act together, this aspect of crypto's value add vanishes and will just be seen as a slow and poor quality volatile payment system.
- nyolfen 4y ago
  if the existence of cryptocurrency uhh, solves central banking then i think it will have achieved its purpose regardless
  - achow 4y ago
    That's not the point OP is making. "If the country gets its act together".. you know by fair elections, good governance and you know by similar such 'non-crypto' things.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - imtringued 4y ago
    Ok but the only one that even attempts to "solve" central banking is RAI. So according to your hypothesis, the vast majority of cryptocurrencies don't serve any purpose.
- RestlessMind 4y ago
  > Except that's not really what's happening. Or maybe you are just ignorant? Here are some examples I have compiled (took me <5 min): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32406095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32406095
  - JofArnold 4y ago
    I've been in crypto a long time. I chose specifically Venezuela as I know that is a good case of Bitcoin not achieving its objectives and was called out specifically as an example of it supposedly being successful. And I very much stand by this and my related points.
    - RestlessMind 4y ago
      > And I very much stand by this and my related points. You say - "If the country gets its act together...". I think crypto will get its act together and get around the adoption blockers before despot regimes of the world get their act together. Just a gut feeling based on our history so far. I also agree that there will be multiple crypto scams along the way. Such is the allure of the new tech.
JofArnold 4y ago
Furthermore, crypto is spectacularly effective at violating rights; "so, Mr Arnold, I see on the blockchain your paid for your wife to have an abortion. That's 10 years in jail for you".
KptMarchewa 4y ago
Democratic world could provide that service without exposing their own citizens to a world of scams.
pjc50 4y ago
Instead, by declining against the dollar by a factor of three in the past year, Bitcoin is quite good at debasing people's savings on its own. Mere issuance isn't enough to guarantee price stability. (There's an interesting question to be asked about whether the US should allow the usage of its digital dollars by non-US persons as a means of evading the currency controls of South American governments, effectively exporting price stability. Much as the existing Eurodollar system. But I don't think this is the place for that discussion)
- RestlessMind 4y ago
  > Instead, by declining against the dollar by a factor of three in the past year, Bitcoin is quite good at debasing people's savings on its own. Srilankan rupee lost 50% value overnight in March 2022 and is subject to futher deterioration due to the corrupt incompetent government. Same with Venezuela. Bitcoin or Gold or USD/EUR are the only good options for the millions of citizens of those countries, albeit generally available on black markets because of government controls. My colleague has his family in such a country. Guess what is the easiest way for him to help his family in need? [Hint: gold is hard to transfer and USD/EUR transfers are sanctioned because of US/EU govt policies].
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - pjc50 4y ago
    In these situations, I always have to ask: who's taking the other side of the transaction, and for what fee? Who's trading Bitcoin for rapidly inflating Sri Lankan rupees?
    - imtringued 4y ago
      People who have opportunities to buy at shops with old prices is my guess.
    - RestlessMind 4y ago
      One anecdote from someone I know personally - it is more of a barter. Her family needed to do a medical procedure, she transferred bitcoin from the US to her family who then gave that to Doctor in exchange for medical services. Probably, Bitcoin is working as intended?

epolanski 4y ago

The idea that money (which is made as a mean of transmission between goods) should be hoarded is stupid. No wealthy person in this planet got wealthier by hoarding pieces of paper with pictures of national heroes, but by investing it in gold, art, land, real estate, stock markets and many others. If you and some other people agree that specific hashes on a specific blockchain have some value for you and avoid "debasing your savings" you're free to hoard them.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
imtringued 4y ago
The problem isn't necessarily hoarding but rather governments decided to only have one legal tender and sabotaging that legal tender is effectively the same as sabotaging the entire economy. Hoarding is a kind of sabotage but if people hoard something that isn't legal tender they are not threatening the economy. The wealthy might be hoarding Lamborghini's but we can always build more cars. Can't do that with money unless the government or a commercial bank does it.

JofArnold 4y ago

Except that's not really what's happening. In Venezuela the only people using crypto to any extent is people who already are tech savvy and have the skills to work around these limitations. The "unbanked" however still don't use crypto and hardly any shops are using it because of the volatility and the long times to approve transactions. It's good for payments of services (e.g. utilities) I hear, however. But I think more crucially is that what's increasingly looking like "the only good use of crypto" is really a consequence of social issues a similar way to how cars are very popular in countries with poor infrastructure (e.g. USA). If the country gets its act together, this aspect of crypto's value add vanishes and will just be seen as a slow and poor quality volatile payment system.

nyolfen 4y ago
if the existence of cryptocurrency uhh, solves central banking then i think it will have achieved its purpose regardless
- achow 4y ago
  That's not the point OP is making. "If the country gets its act together".. you know by fair elections, good governance and you know by similar such 'non-crypto' things.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- imtringued 4y ago
  Ok but the only one that even attempts to "solve" central banking is RAI. So according to your hypothesis, the vast majority of cryptocurrencies don't serve any purpose.
RestlessMind 4y ago
> Except that's not really what's happening. Or maybe you are just ignorant? Here are some examples I have compiled (took me <5 min): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32406095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32406095
- JofArnold 4y ago
  I've been in crypto a long time. I chose specifically Venezuela as I know that is a good case of Bitcoin not achieving its objectives and was called out specifically as an example of it supposedly being successful. And I very much stand by this and my related points.
  - RestlessMind 4y ago
    > And I very much stand by this and my related points. You say - "If the country gets its act together...". I think crypto will get its act together and get around the adoption blockers before despot regimes of the world get their act together. Just a gut feeling based on our history so far. I also agree that there will be multiple crypto scams along the way. Such is the allure of the new tech.

JofArnold 4y ago

Furthermore, crypto is spectacularly effective at violating rights; "so, Mr Arnold, I see on the blockchain your paid for your wife to have an abortion. That's 10 years in jail for you".

KptMarchewa 4y ago

Democratic world could provide that service without exposing their own citizens to a world of scams.

pjc50 4y ago

Instead, by declining against the dollar by a factor of three in the past year, Bitcoin is quite good at debasing people's savings on its own. Mere issuance isn't enough to guarantee price stability. (There's an interesting question to be asked about whether the US should allow the usage of its digital dollars by non-US persons as a means of evading the currency controls of South American governments, effectively exporting price stability. Much as the existing Eurodollar system. But I don't think this is the place for that discussion)

RestlessMind 4y ago
> Instead, by declining against the dollar by a factor of three in the past year, Bitcoin is quite good at debasing people's savings on its own. Srilankan rupee lost 50% value overnight in March 2022 and is subject to futher deterioration due to the corrupt incompetent government. Same with Venezuela. Bitcoin or Gold or USD/EUR are the only good options for the millions of citizens of those countries, albeit generally available on black markets because of government controls. My colleague has his family in such a country. Guess what is the easiest way for him to help his family in need? [Hint: gold is hard to transfer and USD/EUR transfers are sanctioned because of US/EU govt policies].
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- pjc50 4y ago
  In these situations, I always have to ask: who's taking the other side of the transaction, and for what fee? Who's trading Bitcoin for rapidly inflating Sri Lankan rupees?
  - imtringued 4y ago
    People who have opportunities to buy at shops with old prices is my guess.
  - RestlessMind 4y ago
    One anecdote from someone I know personally - it is more of a barter. Her family needed to do a medical procedure, she transferred bitcoin from the US to her family who then gave that to Doctor in exchange for medical services. Probably, Bitcoin is working as intended?