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Right in this very moment there are hundreds if not thousands of musicians making music absolutely terrified that they will accidentally use prior works they c

Right in this very moment there are hundreds if not thousands of musicians making music absolutely terrified that they will accidentally use prior works they can’t get permission for (or can’t afford). Some are terrified they’ll use “the wrong sample” (is there a list of wrong samples? no), some are even terrified they’ll accidentally “create” a chord progression that someone else already has the rights to. In these cases, that artist can end up getting a little popularity and maybe even a little income, then end up in debt with the song pulled from the internet, never to be played by them again.

fyfirhffuug 4y ago
Right but in these scenarios the similarities to a prior work are the cause of the problem they might face. It's stifling to the musician sure but not in a way that's preventing anything actually unheard before.
- Jochim 4y ago
  Where's the limit? Perhaps we should award copyright over specific notes. After all we've all heard them before. Music has so many variables that even direct covers often end up conveying something entirely original or unique. The chilling effect of Copyright results in humanity missing out on a huge number of valuable cultural contributions.
dahart 4y ago
Speaking as a part-time musician that knows a lot of musicians, I don’t know anyone who’s worried about accidentally using prior works… that sentence doesn’t make a lot of sense, unless you’re talking about DJs & sampling & remixing specifically? In that case all samples are infringing, there doesn’t need to be a list of wrong samples, because all creative authors automatically have copy rights of their works, in the US. Sampling and remixing is somewhat tolerated as long as you steer completely clear of copying the whole song, and I’ve heard precedent tends to favor cases where people sample from multiple source and not just one other song. Can you share some example cases of the debt you’re talking about? I’m not aware of any major problem along the lines you’re describing for people who are creating new music and not intentionally infringing a little bit.
- joshspankit 4y ago
  I apologize because this will come off as dismissive, but I don’t mean it that way: I’m specifically talking about musicians who make their living through music and who have enough exposure (say, through album sales) to have the attention of the rival record companies. I say that because in the case of musicians who are “off the radar” the rules don’t really apply. Heck, it’s rare for a musician to get in trouble for playing an exact copy of a popular song at a small venue, but even then I think they all know that they could never release that song on Spotify or YouTube or anywhere else that’s “official” and that’s a demonstration of the kind of fear I’m talking about.
  - dahart 4y ago
    Can you share some specific examples? Which musicians? The ‘rival record companies’ comment hints that you’re talking about something different than copyright problems. But you’re also bringing up many vague fears and not citing examples. People can be scared of a lot of things, that doesn’t mean it’s reality. I’m trying to get a sense of what exactly you’re referring to because it sounds like you are tip-toeing around cases where people are actually infringing and trying to get away with it. Sampling is tolerated sometimes, but not legal. If you go down that road, you can’t necessarily expect to not be challenged.
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  The George Harrison suit was the first big one to hit the news: https://performingsongwriter.com/george-harrison-my-sweet-lord/ https://performingsongwriter.com/george-harrison-my-sweet-lo... Then there was sampling in the 80s which built the market for doing it on purpose. Of course your music has to be noticed and be making money before it really matters. Probably why most pop music today is devoid of melody and is just beats and sound effects.
  - dahart 4y ago
    Oh I agree it has happened, I just don’t believe that having it happen accidentally is a very big problem that musicians are sitting around worrying about, which is what @joshspankit claimed. This doesn’t happen very often, right? I’m ignoring sampling here, that’s copying on purpose, as you say, so far more likely to end in conflict. Thanks for the example! I do wonder if Harrison would have had the same trouble today, those songs are pretty different despite the similarities. It’s not that surprising that among very simple three-chord diatonic major-key pop songs, a few would have a similar structure. The Harrison case might be just as much about opportunist money making as it is about copyright. Is pop music devoid of melody these days? The term to me suggests Taylor Swift, Ed Sheeran, Rihanna, Harry Styles, etc… I mean pop is (more or less) always vocals, which has melody (almost) by definition. I can’t think of much pop that can be summarized as just beats and sound effects… what artists are you thinking of?

fyfirhffuug 4y ago

Right but in these scenarios the similarities to a prior work are the cause of the problem they might face. It's stifling to the musician sure but not in a way that's preventing anything actually unheard before.

Jochim 4y ago
Where's the limit? Perhaps we should award copyright over specific notes. After all we've all heard them before. Music has so many variables that even direct covers often end up conveying something entirely original or unique. The chilling effect of Copyright results in humanity missing out on a huge number of valuable cultural contributions.

dahart 4y ago

Speaking as a part-time musician that knows a lot of musicians, I don’t know anyone who’s worried about accidentally using prior works… that sentence doesn’t make a lot of sense, unless you’re talking about DJs & sampling & remixing specifically? In that case all samples are infringing, there doesn’t need to be a list of wrong samples, because all creative authors automatically have copy rights of their works, in the US. Sampling and remixing is somewhat tolerated as long as you steer completely clear of copying the whole song, and I’ve heard precedent tends to favor cases where people sample from multiple source and not just one other song. Can you share some example cases of the debt you’re talking about? I’m not aware of any major problem along the lines you’re describing for people who are creating new music and not intentionally infringing a little bit.

joshspankit 4y ago
I apologize because this will come off as dismissive, but I don’t mean it that way: I’m specifically talking about musicians who make their living through music and who have enough exposure (say, through album sales) to have the attention of the rival record companies. I say that because in the case of musicians who are “off the radar” the rules don’t really apply. Heck, it’s rare for a musician to get in trouble for playing an exact copy of a popular song at a small venue, but even then I think they all know that they could never release that song on Spotify or YouTube or anywhere else that’s “official” and that’s a demonstration of the kind of fear I’m talking about.
- dahart 4y ago
  Can you share some specific examples? Which musicians? The ‘rival record companies’ comment hints that you’re talking about something different than copyright problems. But you’re also bringing up many vague fears and not citing examples. People can be scared of a lot of things, that doesn’t mean it’s reality. I’m trying to get a sense of what exactly you’re referring to because it sounds like you are tip-toeing around cases where people are actually infringing and trying to get away with it. Sampling is tolerated sometimes, but not legal. If you go down that road, you can’t necessarily expect to not be challenged.
mixmastamyk 4y ago
The George Harrison suit was the first big one to hit the news: https://performingsongwriter.com/george-harrison-my-sweet-lord/ https://performingsongwriter.com/george-harrison-my-sweet-lo... Then there was sampling in the 80s which built the market for doing it on purpose. Of course your music has to be noticed and be making money before it really matters. Probably why most pop music today is devoid of melody and is just beats and sound effects.
- dahart 4y ago
  Oh I agree it has happened, I just don’t believe that having it happen accidentally is a very big problem that musicians are sitting around worrying about, which is what @joshspankit claimed. This doesn’t happen very often, right? I’m ignoring sampling here, that’s copying on purpose, as you say, so far more likely to end in conflict. Thanks for the example! I do wonder if Harrison would have had the same trouble today, those songs are pretty different despite the similarities. It’s not that surprising that among very simple three-chord diatonic major-key pop songs, a few would have a similar structure. The Harrison case might be just as much about opportunist money making as it is about copyright. Is pop music devoid of melody these days? The term to me suggests Taylor Swift, Ed Sheeran, Rihanna, Harry Styles, etc… I mean pop is (more or less) always vocals, which has melody (almost) by definition. I can’t think of much pop that can be summarized as just beats and sound effects… what artists are you thinking of?