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As mentioned in the article, some low income housing units literally don’t have kitchens or don’t allow cooking. This blew my mind and is a facet of poverty I

As mentioned in the article, some low income housing units literally don’t have kitchens or don’t allow cooking. This blew my mind and is a facet of poverty I hadn’t even considered. Also, are you actually making the point that food deserts exist because all the people in the area just decided not to buy groceries? I haven’t read such a blatant “blame the poors for their situation” take in a while.

qbasic_forever 4y ago
If you've really fallen out of society and gone through an eviction or foreclosure then your credit is shot so badly you can only afford to live at a weekly rate motel (you'll never pass a real apartment's credit check). Those places don't have or allow any kind of cooking. A mini fridge and a microwave that's hopefully still working is all you have.
- satellites 4y ago
  Good point. I hadn’t considered that type of housing. It got me thinking though. My partner got evicted when she was younger (early twenties) because her roommate was lying and stealing rent money. Her credit was shot and she had to live with family for years while getting her record cleared. It’s sad to think that if she hadn’t had family to fall back on, she could’ve ended up in that situation. More people than one would think are just one bad situation away from falling into that trap.
  - rurp 4y ago
    > More people than one would think are just one bad situation away from falling into that trap. This is a great point to keep in mind. I think a lot of folks are blind to how fragile financial stability is in the US and how much of a role luck plays in all of this.
- tbrownaw 4y ago
  > Those places don't have or allow any kind of cooking. A mini fridge and a microwave that's hopefully still working is all you have. The ones I see around here[1] specifically advertise having full kitchens. Both on their local signage and on their website. [1] https://www.extendedstayamerica.com/ https://www.extendedstayamerica.com/
  - jjav 4y ago
    > The ones I see around here[1] specifically advertise having full kitchens. Both on their local signage and on their website. Those are relatively nice weekly/monthly hotels. That's not where the desperately poor go. There are ~$30/night extended stay motels but the quality is what you'd expect. No fridge, no cooking, heat/AC doesn't work, very filty.
- FrontierPsych 4y ago
  And there is zero wrong with a microwave and mini fridge. I personally don't see an issue with that. I've had to do that in the distant past, it was no problem at all, not at all. It's only a problem if you want to be Bill Gates lifestyle while making $15K per year.
maria2 4y ago
My argument is that nutritious, affordable food exists. We live in a capitalist society. Where there exists demand for a good, supply materializes. I'm open to other interpretations. But I would need a compelling, non-demand reason why affordable food, which exists in surplus elsewhere, can't be sold in certain neighborhoods.
- satellites 4y ago
  … unless you live in a food desert, in which case that capitalist society is failing to provide for basic needs. This is a complex problem. Your reductive takes don’t really address the issue at hand and instead seek to wave it away. “I already believe our system is great, so I’ll blame the poors before applying critical perspective to the system itself.”
  - maria2 4y ago
    > … unless you live in a food desert, in which case that capitalist society is failing to provide for basic needs. Yes, you're starting to get it! If demand existed for cheap, nutritious food, someone would provide it for profit. We already know the food can be provided cheaply and profitably in other, more expensive, regions. So what conclusion can we come to other than that food deserts exist because the demand for the food doesn't exist?
    - satellites 4y ago
      I’m telling you that there IS demand, there IS need, but capitalism will not provide because market incentives are not enough to correct the situation. Reality is not a thought experiment, and “supply and demand” is a simplistic reduction that conveys a general principle of economics but does not cover the entire nuanced reality of the food desert phenomenon. You are approaching this like someone who just took Econ 101 and thinks they have the whole thing figured out. And since it’s clear that you really are doubling down on your idea that “it is poor people’s fault if they live in a food desert,” all I can do is encourage you to read this article and read more about the subject before assuming you are smarter than everyone else who actually works on this type of issue. Cheers.
anon291 4y ago
Food deserts occur because we tolerate petty crime in the name of wokeness. I'm seeing this play out in my own inner city neighborhood where grocery stores are talking about closing after the city destaffed police.
- Aloha 4y ago
  The phenomenon was happening before 'wokeness' there are articles from the early 70's talking about the problem - also, intercity america and rural america often have the exact same problems which just manifest in different ways.
  - anon291 4y ago
    Okay, but I'm saying I'm seeing a food desert develop in real time, and the reason today is what I said it was. I don't know about the 70s and 60s in detail. But from what I do know of them, I imagine similar dynamics were at play.
    - Aloha 4y ago
      Yeah, and area that was already on the margins slips into poverty for a list of reasons. Grocery stores aren't closing en masse in poor areas. In most cases they've been gone for decades.
- Eextra953 4y ago
  Please explain how tolerating petty crimes creates food deserts.
  - anon291 4y ago
    Businesses close... Local operators are at a disadvantage compared to owners in safer areas, thus they close or just don't expand as fast.
- panick21_ 4y ago
  Nonsense. City centers were devastated by city planners in the 50/60s and cities in the US were hurt by zoneing regulation. In fact, if you have good mixed use cities, your city shouldn't even need much policy in the first place. Safety doesn't come from policy, but civil society. If you are relaying on policy to operate a basic store in a city you know you have big problems already. And blaming 'wokeness' for the problems of inner cities in the US is crazy.
FrontierPsych 4y ago
You can make anything in a microwave. There is no way that they don't allow microwaves. And I personally just bought a microwave from craigslist for $15, and it was almost brand new. The buttons that you press the time in still had the plastic covering on it. Same with fridges - can buy a used one for super inexpensive - a small one, to be sure, but at least you have something. Or could buy two of them over time. There are always solutions. There are no such thing as food deserts. I've seen the maps, and yes, there are areas that don't have large grocery stores. BUT, there are good grocery stores 5 or 8 miles away. If you have a car, you drive there. If you don't, you find someone who has a car to drive you there and carry inexpensive groceries back. Could be a neighbor, a church, yeah, it will take a little extra work, but so what? My family member lived way in the rural area and had to take a 1 hour trip each way to Costco once a month to stock up on staples. They took the time, why can't everyone else. Except they had to drive 60 miles, not 5 or 8 miles. There are always easy solutions. Unfortunately, I think I'm the only person in the known universe that knows the solutions.
- Infinitesimus 4y ago
  No, you aren't the only one who knows the solutions. > microwaves Many cheap motels do not in fact have microwaves. Buying one for $15 is great if you live in a place where people are selling working microwaves for that price and eveyrone else is not also poor and looking for a microwave. > They took the time, why can't everyone else. Not if you're working 3 jobs and barely have time to sleep while being a caregiver. Some people don't get to take time off to do things. > There are no such thing as food deserts. I've seen the maps, and yes, there are areas that don't have large grocery stores. Perhaps talk to someone who'se lived in one? There's quite a lot of arrogance to say "I've looked at the maps so your problem doesn't exist" from wherever you're based on earth. There are solutions in many situations but the cycle is vicious and you're one bad step away from getting eating alive in many places. Poor nutrition -> health problems -> limited time -> getting laid off for underperformance (or plain cruelty). It isn't always a way out in life without a dollop of luck.
  - FrontierPsych 4y ago
    I personally work with a woman that has 5 children and works 2 fulltime jobs. Her husband used to do all the work but he died of health issue 3 years ago. She does have her mother and sister to help her with her children. But when I talk to her about this, she understands and agrees with what I say and does it. I'm not saying it is easy - it isn't. But when you are there, you have to do what you have to do. I think I AM the only one who knows the solution. Because when I was in my 20s, I been there, done that.

qbasic_forever 4y ago

If you've really fallen out of society and gone through an eviction or foreclosure then your credit is shot so badly you can only afford to live at a weekly rate motel (you'll never pass a real apartment's credit check). Those places don't have or allow any kind of cooking. A mini fridge and a microwave that's hopefully still working is all you have.

satellites 4y ago
Good point. I hadn’t considered that type of housing. It got me thinking though. My partner got evicted when she was younger (early twenties) because her roommate was lying and stealing rent money. Her credit was shot and she had to live with family for years while getting her record cleared. It’s sad to think that if she hadn’t had family to fall back on, she could’ve ended up in that situation. More people than one would think are just one bad situation away from falling into that trap.
- rurp 4y ago
  > More people than one would think are just one bad situation away from falling into that trap. This is a great point to keep in mind. I think a lot of folks are blind to how fragile financial stability is in the US and how much of a role luck plays in all of this.
tbrownaw 4y ago
> Those places don't have or allow any kind of cooking. A mini fridge and a microwave that's hopefully still working is all you have. The ones I see around here[1] specifically advertise having full kitchens. Both on their local signage and on their website. [1] https://www.extendedstayamerica.com/ https://www.extendedstayamerica.com/
- jjav 4y ago
  > The ones I see around here[1] specifically advertise having full kitchens. Both on their local signage and on their website. Those are relatively nice weekly/monthly hotels. That's not where the desperately poor go. There are ~$30/night extended stay motels but the quality is what you'd expect. No fridge, no cooking, heat/AC doesn't work, very filty.
FrontierPsych 4y ago
And there is zero wrong with a microwave and mini fridge. I personally don't see an issue with that. I've had to do that in the distant past, it was no problem at all, not at all. It's only a problem if you want to be Bill Gates lifestyle while making $15K per year.

maria2 4y ago

My argument is that nutritious, affordable food exists. We live in a capitalist society. Where there exists demand for a good, supply materializes. I'm open to other interpretations. But I would need a compelling, non-demand reason why affordable food, which exists in surplus elsewhere, can't be sold in certain neighborhoods.

satellites 4y ago
… unless you live in a food desert, in which case that capitalist society is failing to provide for basic needs. This is a complex problem. Your reductive takes don’t really address the issue at hand and instead seek to wave it away. “I already believe our system is great, so I’ll blame the poors before applying critical perspective to the system itself.”
- maria2 4y ago
  > … unless you live in a food desert, in which case that capitalist society is failing to provide for basic needs. Yes, you're starting to get it! If demand existed for cheap, nutritious food, someone would provide it for profit. We already know the food can be provided cheaply and profitably in other, more expensive, regions. So what conclusion can we come to other than that food deserts exist because the demand for the food doesn't exist?
  - satellites 4y ago
    I’m telling you that there IS demand, there IS need, but capitalism will not provide because market incentives are not enough to correct the situation. Reality is not a thought experiment, and “supply and demand” is a simplistic reduction that conveys a general principle of economics but does not cover the entire nuanced reality of the food desert phenomenon. You are approaching this like someone who just took Econ 101 and thinks they have the whole thing figured out. And since it’s clear that you really are doubling down on your idea that “it is poor people’s fault if they live in a food desert,” all I can do is encourage you to read this article and read more about the subject before assuming you are smarter than everyone else who actually works on this type of issue. Cheers.

anon291 4y ago

Food deserts occur because we tolerate petty crime in the name of wokeness. I'm seeing this play out in my own inner city neighborhood where grocery stores are talking about closing after the city destaffed police.

Aloha 4y ago
The phenomenon was happening before 'wokeness' there are articles from the early 70's talking about the problem - also, intercity america and rural america often have the exact same problems which just manifest in different ways.
- anon291 4y ago
  Okay, but I'm saying I'm seeing a food desert develop in real time, and the reason today is what I said it was. I don't know about the 70s and 60s in detail. But from what I do know of them, I imagine similar dynamics were at play.
  - Aloha 4y ago
    Yeah, and area that was already on the margins slips into poverty for a list of reasons. Grocery stores aren't closing en masse in poor areas. In most cases they've been gone for decades.
Eextra953 4y ago
Please explain how tolerating petty crimes creates food deserts.
- anon291 4y ago
  Businesses close... Local operators are at a disadvantage compared to owners in safer areas, thus they close or just don't expand as fast.
panick21_ 4y ago
Nonsense. City centers were devastated by city planners in the 50/60s and cities in the US were hurt by zoneing regulation. In fact, if you have good mixed use cities, your city shouldn't even need much policy in the first place. Safety doesn't come from policy, but civil society. If you are relaying on policy to operate a basic store in a city you know you have big problems already. And blaming 'wokeness' for the problems of inner cities in the US is crazy.

FrontierPsych 4y ago

You can make anything in a microwave. There is no way that they don't allow microwaves. And I personally just bought a microwave from craigslist for $15, and it was almost brand new. The buttons that you press the time in still had the plastic covering on it. Same with fridges - can buy a used one for super inexpensive - a small one, to be sure, but at least you have something. Or could buy two of them over time. There are always solutions. There are no such thing as food deserts. I've seen the maps, and yes, there are areas that don't have large grocery stores. BUT, there are good grocery stores 5 or 8 miles away. If you have a car, you drive there. If you don't, you find someone who has a car to drive you there and carry inexpensive groceries back. Could be a neighbor, a church, yeah, it will take a little extra work, but so what? My family member lived way in the rural area and had to take a 1 hour trip each way to Costco once a month to stock up on staples. They took the time, why can't everyone else. Except they had to drive 60 miles, not 5 or 8 miles. There are always easy solutions. Unfortunately, I think I'm the only person in the known universe that knows the solutions.

Infinitesimus 4y ago
No, you aren't the only one who knows the solutions. > microwaves Many cheap motels do not in fact have microwaves. Buying one for $15 is great if you live in a place where people are selling working microwaves for that price and eveyrone else is not also poor and looking for a microwave. > They took the time, why can't everyone else. Not if you're working 3 jobs and barely have time to sleep while being a caregiver. Some people don't get to take time off to do things. > There are no such thing as food deserts. I've seen the maps, and yes, there are areas that don't have large grocery stores. Perhaps talk to someone who'se lived in one? There's quite a lot of arrogance to say "I've looked at the maps so your problem doesn't exist" from wherever you're based on earth. There are solutions in many situations but the cycle is vicious and you're one bad step away from getting eating alive in many places. Poor nutrition -> health problems -> limited time -> getting laid off for underperformance (or plain cruelty). It isn't always a way out in life without a dollop of luck.
- FrontierPsych 4y ago
  I personally work with a woman that has 5 children and works 2 fulltime jobs. Her husband used to do all the work but he died of health issue 3 years ago. She does have her mother and sister to help her with her children. But when I talk to her about this, she understands and agrees with what I say and does it. I'm not saying it is easy - it isn't. But when you are there, you have to do what you have to do. I think I AM the only one who knows the solution. Because when I was in my 20s, I been there, done that.