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I know this is just a rhetorical point of yours, but maybe we can start to accept that America and the west as whole is not actually significantly different fro

I know this is just a rhetorical point of yours, but maybe we can start to accept that America and the west as whole is not actually significantly different from China with stuff like this. Thinking about it, why would we be? I can't see a good answer to that without appealing to weird/nationalistic/naive ideas about the moral character of states themselves, or simply the understanble nonlogic of "well this is my country, they wouldnt be like that here." At the end of the day, priorites are priorites, incentives are incentives. Efficiency doesn't know or care about culture, it is self-justifying.

chrisbaker98 4y ago
> America and the west as whole is not actually significantly different from China with stuff like this. As someone who has spent many years of my life living outside "America and the West": this is not remotely true.
- FredPret 4y ago
  I moved from outside into the West and I’m inclined to agree with you. It feels different here. There’s much more trust, even when Westerners mock their institutions, there is a higher baseline and more implied trust.
  - kergonath 4y ago
    The thing is that it’s easy to voice an opinion. And you can be confident that the institutions will endure even if you weaken them, which provides a safety net for populists who have incentives to use corrosive language and attitudes for electoral reasons without fearing a complete breakdown of the state or society. We’ve seen this countless times. However upset people are about Medicare and public welfare, they still want to get some support when they need. It is a factor for instability in the long term, but it is an unavoidable cost of having free speech. Ideally, it would be fought against with a good public education system.
    - nullish_signal 4y ago
      I'd like to see a new Constitution with a Bill of Responsibilities, one of them being to know how to live without certain modern necessities for proscribed periods of time. Jury Duty, but a couple Weeks a Year of Camping in the Wilderness with your Family.
- belfalas 4y ago
  Same, America and the West are significantly different from places like China or Russia. It's not even close.
  - andrekandre 4y ago
    what are some stand-out differences?
    - Beltalowda 4y ago
      In most Western countries there is an extremely broadly held belief in individual liberty, which can be summed up as "do whatever you want as long as you don't unreasonably burden others". There is significant disagreement on what exactly does or does not "unreasonably burden others", but the core belief is held across the political spectrum for all except the extreme ends of the tankie left and fascist-y right. Other differences, such as a belief in democracy, free speech, freedom of religion, etc. flow from this.
    - belfalas 4y ago
      You mean besides freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and democracy?
      - belfalas 4y ago
        One more: in Russia it’s legal to beat your wife. Look it up, it’s very recent.
  - beepbooptheory 4y ago
    Why do you think that is?
    - belfalas 4y ago
      History and culture.
- beepbooptheory 4y ago
  Oh well that's certainly a relief in this context! I do appreciate the input here, but maybe to help you engage with the actual thought a little better (and for my edification, perhaps) do you have any reasons or theories as to why this is the case?
  - lambic2 4y ago
    I doubt this question can be answered in a short comment. The differences stem from thousands of years of diverging cultural influences, history and geography. As for Russia, this video gives a good introduction to the origins of Russian Authoritarianism (with comparisons to power structures in China and Europe over history), that go all the way back to the 5th century A.D. with the Huns and the unique geography/climate of Russia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ZqBLcIvw0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ZqBLcIvw0.
    - beepbooptheory 4y ago
      So, how does the U.S.A fare in this kind of thinking? There isn't such a vast history to pull from there, how can you justify an analogous nationalistic identity/moral character for it without such a big story? Also, what is the argument for being able to collapse culture and state together, such that the state can/will manifest this trans-historic character of a group of people? Or rather, if we grant that relation either way, does the argument have anything to say about any of the tumultuous events of politics and culture in Russia or China in the 20th century? Are they just hiccups along the overall trend? Such that the CCP isn't an authoritarian regime from without which harms china now, but an inevitable symptom of some trans-historic Chinese culture?
      - lambic2 4y ago
        | There isn't such a vast history to pull from there, how can you justify an analogous nationalistic identity/moral character for it without such a big story? Well, exactly - that explains a lot of the current political/cultural fragmentation of the U.S. population. Although you can definitely argue that though it is a "short" story in comparison, the founding of the U.S. as a revolution to gain independence from the British Crown to found a state by the people, for the people, with its own constitution and Bill of Rights is a "big" story nonetheless. As to your other questions - good questions - one could write a whole book (or several) addressing them.
humanistbot 4y ago
> I know this is just a rhetorical point of yours, but maybe we can start to accept that America and the west as whole is not actually significantly different from China with stuff like this. This is such black-and-white thinking. Most EU countries are kilometers ahead of the US, and the US is miles ahead of Russia. Putin would love for Russia to race to the bottom and get to China's level, but Russia is way behind China in terms of technical expertise, investment, infrastructure, and actual coordination/coercion between government and industry (vs crony corruption). And then there are the new Chinese colonies in Africa who get all the surveillance and none of the benefits.
- beepbooptheory 4y ago
  My thoughts about surveillance and such in the world at large may well be wrong or naive, but I'm pretty sure I am not the one being black and white here. I think, in order to tell me off like you want to do here, you should say I am too equivocating of things, that I am not black and white enough! You could be like "you see some particulars and generalize too quickly, countries do live and die by principles, not 'efficiency' or abstract incentive. You're turning everything grey, and forget that there is light and darkness, good guys and bad guys, black and white." That seems to be what you want to say to me, no?
  - humanistbot 4y ago
    You're derailing this from a substantive discussion about surveillance to one about the meaning of a colloquial metaphor. I'm not going to debate the meaning of "black and white." If you want to make a substantive comment about whether there are national differences in the level of surveillance, I'll reply. But I won't take the semantics bait.
    - beepbooptheory 4y ago
      I'm sorry I guess. You responded to only my first statement by just saying that, in fact, Russia bad and USA good. I don't really know what to say to that, its not adding anything, or speaking to my very small and abstract reflections about incentive, justification, and culture. I'm sure many/most people would be happy to talk to you about how some countries are worse than others, why even choose to respond to me, where such things aren't adding anything?

chrisbaker98 4y ago

> America and the west as whole is not actually significantly different from China with stuff like this. As someone who has spent many years of my life living outside "America and the West": this is not remotely true.

FredPret 4y ago
I moved from outside into the West and I’m inclined to agree with you. It feels different here. There’s much more trust, even when Westerners mock their institutions, there is a higher baseline and more implied trust.
- kergonath 4y ago
  The thing is that it’s easy to voice an opinion. And you can be confident that the institutions will endure even if you weaken them, which provides a safety net for populists who have incentives to use corrosive language and attitudes for electoral reasons without fearing a complete breakdown of the state or society. We’ve seen this countless times. However upset people are about Medicare and public welfare, they still want to get some support when they need. It is a factor for instability in the long term, but it is an unavoidable cost of having free speech. Ideally, it would be fought against with a good public education system.
  - nullish_signal 4y ago
    I'd like to see a new Constitution with a Bill of Responsibilities, one of them being to know how to live without certain modern necessities for proscribed periods of time. Jury Duty, but a couple Weeks a Year of Camping in the Wilderness with your Family.
belfalas 4y ago
Same, America and the West are significantly different from places like China or Russia. It's not even close.
- andrekandre 4y ago
  what are some stand-out differences?
  - Beltalowda 4y ago
    In most Western countries there is an extremely broadly held belief in individual liberty, which can be summed up as "do whatever you want as long as you don't unreasonably burden others". There is significant disagreement on what exactly does or does not "unreasonably burden others", but the core belief is held across the political spectrum for all except the extreme ends of the tankie left and fascist-y right. Other differences, such as a belief in democracy, free speech, freedom of religion, etc. flow from this.
  - belfalas 4y ago
    You mean besides freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and democracy?
    - belfalas 4y ago
      One more: in Russia it’s legal to beat your wife. Look it up, it’s very recent.
- beepbooptheory 4y ago
  Why do you think that is?
  - belfalas 4y ago
    History and culture.
beepbooptheory 4y ago
Oh well that's certainly a relief in this context! I do appreciate the input here, but maybe to help you engage with the actual thought a little better (and for my edification, perhaps) do you have any reasons or theories as to why this is the case?
- lambic2 4y ago
  I doubt this question can be answered in a short comment. The differences stem from thousands of years of diverging cultural influences, history and geography. As for Russia, this video gives a good introduction to the origins of Russian Authoritarianism (with comparisons to power structures in China and Europe over history), that go all the way back to the 5th century A.D. with the Huns and the unique geography/climate of Russia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ZqBLcIvw0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ZqBLcIvw0.
  - beepbooptheory 4y ago
    So, how does the U.S.A fare in this kind of thinking? There isn't such a vast history to pull from there, how can you justify an analogous nationalistic identity/moral character for it without such a big story? Also, what is the argument for being able to collapse culture and state together, such that the state can/will manifest this trans-historic character of a group of people? Or rather, if we grant that relation either way, does the argument have anything to say about any of the tumultuous events of politics and culture in Russia or China in the 20th century? Are they just hiccups along the overall trend? Such that the CCP isn't an authoritarian regime from without which harms china now, but an inevitable symptom of some trans-historic Chinese culture?
    - lambic2 4y ago
      | There isn't such a vast history to pull from there, how can you justify an analogous nationalistic identity/moral character for it without such a big story? Well, exactly - that explains a lot of the current political/cultural fragmentation of the U.S. population. Although you can definitely argue that though it is a "short" story in comparison, the founding of the U.S. as a revolution to gain independence from the British Crown to found a state by the people, for the people, with its own constitution and Bill of Rights is a "big" story nonetheless. As to your other questions - good questions - one could write a whole book (or several) addressing them.

humanistbot 4y ago

> I know this is just a rhetorical point of yours, but maybe we can start to accept that America and the west as whole is not actually significantly different from China with stuff like this. This is such black-and-white thinking. Most EU countries are kilometers ahead of the US, and the US is miles ahead of Russia. Putin would love for Russia to race to the bottom and get to China's level, but Russia is way behind China in terms of technical expertise, investment, infrastructure, and actual coordination/coercion between government and industry (vs crony corruption). And then there are the new Chinese colonies in Africa who get all the surveillance and none of the benefits.

beepbooptheory 4y ago
My thoughts about surveillance and such in the world at large may well be wrong or naive, but I'm pretty sure I am not the one being black and white here. I think, in order to tell me off like you want to do here, you should say I am too equivocating of things, that I am not black and white enough! You could be like "you see some particulars and generalize too quickly, countries do live and die by principles, not 'efficiency' or abstract incentive. You're turning everything grey, and forget that there is light and darkness, good guys and bad guys, black and white." That seems to be what you want to say to me, no?
- humanistbot 4y ago
  You're derailing this from a substantive discussion about surveillance to one about the meaning of a colloquial metaphor. I'm not going to debate the meaning of "black and white." If you want to make a substantive comment about whether there are national differences in the level of surveillance, I'll reply. But I won't take the semantics bait.
  - beepbooptheory 4y ago
    I'm sorry I guess. You responded to only my first statement by just saying that, in fact, Russia bad and USA good. I don't really know what to say to that, its not adding anything, or speaking to my very small and abstract reflections about incentive, justification, and culture. I'm sure many/most people would be happy to talk to you about how some countries are worse than others, why even choose to respond to me, where such things aren't adding anything?