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Some of them are deliberate slurs but most of them are just colourful language. This list is 95% absolutely ridiculous and I’m what you’d probably consider a p

• ModernMech 4y ago
  • tsimionescu 4y ago
    No no, I think the majority getting mad, or at the very least myself, see two things: (1) the vast majority of the words on this list do not have the claimed negative connotations in the slightest, and should be liberally used in Stanford materials, and (2) if the geniuses who compiled this list are allowed to make it a standard of speech for Stanford materials, it will sooner or later be adopted by many other places looking for a list of "safe words". The whole thing has to be ridiculed from top to bottom, both for what it's direct stated goals are, but also for fear that it will make its way into more places if it's not nipped in the bud. Note: some words on the list, such as a several obvious slurs they chose to include, of course must be avoided. Black hat (hacker) or black box or blind review or commited suicide or user (!!!!) or calling a spade a spade or man-in-the-middle or [...] are not among those.
    • ModernMech 4y ago
      > the vast majority of the words on this list do not have the claimed negative connotations in the slightest Sure I see a lot of hand waving here about that, but this community is notably not necessarily the most diverse (edit: by diverse I mean has notable blindspots and well-known biases). For example a lot of people here on HN have no problem using terms like “master” and “slave” in a technological context, but other people have told me those terms make them uncomfortable. I don’t want my students to feel that way so I don’t use those words in a classroom context, even if every single person on HN is okay using them. Maybe we can all appreciate that perhaps the people who wrote this list are in fact expressing a genuine concern about language that is held by others, even if you do not personally see the concern? > it will sooner or later be adopted by many other places looking for a list of "safe words". First, I appreciate the slippery slope, but at this point it’s behind a Stanford login, and is really only addressed to Stanford IT. Then again it says it’s in line with peer institutions so perhaps the slope has already slipped. But even if more people want to do this, so what? It’s their choice. These documents are about others policing their own language, not them policing yours. Your comments about “ridiculing” and “nipping it in the bud” are closer to policing the speech of others than this list is.
      • swayvil 4y ago
        Vowels make me uncomfortable (due to an encounter with a quartet of yodelers at an early age). Please refrain.
      • coldtea 4y ago
        >Sure I see a lot of hand waving here about that, but this community is notably not necessarily the most diverse The communities deciding those terms as "potentially harmful" are even less diverse: mostly white, mostly of the aspirational classes, mostly of a certain ideological bent and demographic, with the token social climber members that don't represent their communities thrown in for good measure... It's like the white people deciding on "latinx" for latinos, when majority real world latinos consider it idiotic (and don't find the term "latino" or "latin america" insulting). >But even if more people want to do this, so what? It’s their choice. These documents are about others policing their own language, not them policing yours. Hardly
        • rmellow 4y ago
          No one ever asked me if I liked being called 'Latinx'. I don't like the sound of it, and I feel I'd be seen as 'difficult' if I were to tell people in my company I don't like it. How is 'Latin' offensive? There is a loud minority within the Latin group who wants the term so they can feel powerful, and of course, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. In the end, all society is accomplishing is rewarding outrage.
          • googlryas 4y ago
            Latin/Latino itself actually isn't inclusive since it is commonly used to refer to basically anyone from central/South America, even though many people there have no Latin heritage and may not even speak a Latin language(eg descendents of the Mayans)
            • tsimionescu 4y ago
              Is Latinx any better from this point of view?
    • TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
      “Killing two birds with one stone” promotes violence to animals. I will use this term to my grave and yet I’ve never committed violence to animals. Nor do I promote it. It’s a figure of speech.
      • ZeroGravitas 4y ago
        Peta came out with a list of "vegan" idioms. Probably mostly a publicity stunt and some are clunky, but I try and use "feeding 2 birds with one scone" because it's a good pun.
        • cutemonster 4y ago
          Or "feeding 2 cats with one bird"
        • forgetfulness 4y ago
          That's really problematic because scones are not part of a bird's natural diet, and makes them subservient to the charity of humans.
          • TeMPOraL 4y ago
            That's gonna be a fun one to watch if they ever follow up on this reasoning, given that at this point, most land-dwelling animals are "subservient to the charity of humans". Those that aren't are either hiding in few undeveloped areas, or gone extinct.
        • ticviking 4y ago
          That is a good pun, and tells me a lot about someone if they've modified their habits of speech that much to avoid speaking like everyone else to project their worldview onto it. I really admire people who are actually wholly integrated that way.
      • bell-cot 4y ago
        I'm sorry, but "figure" is obviously offensive to a huge number of people, starting with anyone who's ever suffered from anorexia. And "speech" is clearly a slur against mute persons. Please self-censor in the future, or the Stanford Brain Police will be forced to take appropriate measures. /s
    • Cthulhu_ 4y ago
      > the vast majority of the words on this list do not have the claimed negative connotations in the slightest And who are you to judge that? Are you in any way subject to descriptors they offer alternatives to? I'll have to admit my bias though, I presume everyone here who rails against this list is themselves a financially, physically and mentally healthy heterosexual white male aged 20-40. You're not going to be offended by any of these terms, that's fine, it's not for your benefit.
      • omginternets 4y ago
        He’s speaking for himself, and I think he hit the nail on the head. So he’s speaking for me as well, now.
      • politician 4y ago
        Do you think slurs against the group of people you so precisely targeted belong on this list, or no?
      • tsimionescu 4y ago
        Well, you got one of your assumptions wrong at least (probably two, since you probably forgot to mention you likely assume that everyone here is from one of the wealthy "Western" countries). Regardless, I'm a speaker of English, and I have read up on the origin of most of those words, and understand how connotations work - apparently better than whoever put together this list, who seems to think "whitespace" is using white in a way which implies white=good, or "black box" somehow implies that black=bad. Also note, words are rarely a real problem. People can use perfectly normal good words to belittle you, even unintentionally (my father was asked a few times "do you have Google there?", for a country that's been a member of the EU for well over 10 years). The attitudes people have don't particularly change with the language they use. Reminds me of a segment John Stewart once did, where a state senator from some US state took the word and started complaining that "African-American kids just don't learn as well as white kids, they just lack the mental ability [...]". As John joked at the time - if you're going to be that unabashedly racist, just call them the n-word, it won't make things worse.
  • splistud 4y ago
  • coldtea 4y ago
    >The point of Stanford making this website was to help its community avoid using words with negative connotations The point Stanford was making was to cover it's ass, and do a token virue signalling gesture, by participating in and endosing the mass hysteria that is this neo-victorian puritanism
• listless 4y ago
  I'd like to think all of us are proponents of social justice. That's the most tragic thing about all of this stuff - it undermines good work and progress. Even more reason for all of us to reject it.
  • colpabar 4y ago
    Well, you'd better hope the "real social justice proponents" start rejecting it loudly and publicly because otherwise more institutions are going to follow suit. The problem here is that you and anyone who disagrees with this list are now on the side of people who aren't proponents of social justice, and so we're probably stuck with it now.
• ilyt 4y ago
  It's typical "I'm helping!" feel-good activism achieving exactly nothing at best, negative gains at worst. But hot damn some are terrible. I'd even go as far to say that some are worse insult as original, calling someone "non-vocal, non-verbal" instead of just "dumb" sounds like a better burn than original. "This proposition was clearly written by someone neither vocal nor verbal"
  • Cthulhu_ 4y ago
    See, you're already seeing it as insulting someone; that's a you issue. Intent is important there. If your intent is to describe someone as non-vocal, you can use inoffensive language; you'll sound more cleverer, too.
    • jtbayly 4y ago
      Mankind is being retarded by committees manned by supposed gurus that are actually just Karens who circle the wagons and beat the dead horse of insisting that the rest of the world is just a bunch of racist ableist hicks.
      • remarkEon 4y ago
        As a rule of thumb, I tend to ignore blacklists like this and just go about my business. Btw it looks like Stanford has thrown up a login wall on the site, which is … amusing.
        • colpabar 4y ago
          "Alt-right/neo-nazi/white-supremacist trolls flood Stanford's inclusive language page with hateful comments, University limits the page to students and faculty only." Welcome to the basket of deplorables!
    • Pigalowda 4y ago
      I am confused by your comment. He is demonstrating that the alternative words can be used offensively if that is one’s desire. Why is that a “you” issue?
• oldgradstudent 4y ago
  > Some of them are deliberate slurs but most of them are just colourful language. Some of them are just simple language. >> user >> While often associated with one who uses (software, systems, services), it can also negatively be associated with those who suffer from substance abuse issues or those who exploit others for their own gain. Seriously? > It’s deeply funny, but also tragic because while there should be an attempt to make language inclusive, lists like this make the movement look like a joke. Unfortunately, they can't notice because they lack a sense of humor.
  • Cthulhu_ 4y ago
    > Seriously? Context matters in that case. I don't believe its intent is to remove the word "user" from vocabulary, but only when referencing people who peruse substances.
    • chabad360 4y ago
      But when is that definition coming up in IT documents?
    • nkrisc 4y ago
      But the suggested alternative was “client.” I don’t think they’re saying we should call people who abuse substances “clients.”
    • omginternets 4y ago
      They recommend avoiding the word “abort” because it might call pregnancy termination to mind. I think you’re being too charitable.
  • nkrisc 4y ago
    The “user” example surprised me because they suggested “client” as an alternative, which might unintentionally imply the person frequents prostitutes.
    • colpabar 4y ago
• mbg721 4y ago
  The English language is deep in a crisis of lacking effective profanity. We neutered "fuck" by using it too much, Aussies use "cunt" as an adverb at the dinner table, all we're left with is ethnic slurs.
  • Cthulhu_ 4y ago
    And yet, it's still censored and frowned upon in a lot of discourse.
    • mbg721 4y ago
      Yes, I'm reassured every time I try to file a financial statement at work and the accountants send it back with "You can't say 'cunting dollars'."
  • colpabar 4y ago
    Try using the word "cunt" in america - it still has a lot of power here.
    • mbg721 4y ago
      What one can learn by doing that is that the abrupt "stop the record" noise still exists even though records aren't a thing. Like the "save" icon.
  • aidenn0 4y ago
    My teenagers consider "retard" to be far more offensive than either of those words.
    • mbg721 4y ago
      That's interesting to me, since teenagers were really the only ones who ever used it. It's not just the subtext, since everybody says "idiot" and "moron". But I have a hard time imagining an f-bomb-throwing 50-year-old casually saying "retard" after a meeting or something like that.
    • 4y ago
• version_five 4y ago
  The movement is a joke. The very idea of "making language inclusive" is so full of hipocracy, contradiction, the desire to control others, there is no "good" version of it. It's possible to treat others with respect naturally without self censoring or censoring others. That's not what these movements are about, they're the opposite of inclusive and respectful, in any form.
  • puchatek 4y ago
    • unsignednoop 4y ago
      Yeah? I use it all the time
      • mbg721 4y ago
        In a professional context, using your real name? I never would, in this political climate. I probably never would have anyway, but morality is unimportant in the face of zealousness. I think most people agree that it's a stupid and irrelevant thing to care about, but nobody is going to be the first one to stick their neck out.
        • colpabar 4y ago
          I don't know if you're aware but a lot of black people use this word all the time. Actually, it's used by a lot of peoples who aren't white. I'm going to assume you are white - try telling a black guy he can't use that word because it's offensive.
          • mbg721 4y ago
            You're right, I am a pasty white guy, and I'm also not in the business of telling people what to say or not say. All I know is that there are a couple of magic words I can say that will instantly ruin my life.
• rpdillon 4y ago
  The list is truly absurd. That aside, it's also wrong in some cases. For example, under "Gender" they have the phrase "balls to the wall", explaining that it's not to be used because "Attributes personality traits to anatomy." That's just incorrect; I haven't been able to find even one source suggesting it's anything other than a term pilots used. Wiktionary reflects this: > Perhaps coined by pilots whose throttle levers had round, ball-like tops, and for whom putting the "balls to the wall" (the firewall of the aircraft) meant making the aircraft fly as quickly as possible. On the other hand, I feel like some terms really do originate in mistreatment of folks, and no one seems to care. So we end up banning terms like "blacklist" (which has little or nothing to do with race as far as I can tell) and keep around terms like "grandfathered-in", which really do have roots in oppression: > Originally referred to a clause added to the constitutions of some Southern US states that exempted people with relatives that had voted before 1867 from strict new voting requirements, in effect disproportionately limiting the ability of African Americans to vote.
  • TeMPOraL 4y ago
    > So we end up banning terms like "blacklist" (which has little or nothing to do with race as far as I can tell) and keep around terms like "grandfathered-in", which really do have roots in oppression: FWIW, they included that one on the list.
    • rpdillon 4y ago
      Ah, I think I had searched for it before I had expanded all the categories. Thanks for pointing that out!
  • papandada 4y ago
    I'm waiting for when "absurd" is denounced as "ableist"
    • lo_zamoyski 4y ago
      According to clown logic, isn't it, by implication?
• giardini 4y ago
  I like the list b/c it provides some etymology and is therefore educational. I knew about many but some (e.g., "basket case") were a surprise. But words change over time and therefore nit-picking by declaring a particular past meaning of a word or phrase as the only meaning is incorrect. For example "basket case" is common usage and hardly means today what it once may have. Nonetheless the entire idea of using such a list to censor speech is absurd.
  • TeMPOraL 4y ago
    Keep in mind that some of the etymology is speculative at best. With that in mind, I agree - I learned a few new things from the "Context" section too. It's not all bad as a list, but it is dangerous in the form and context in which it was created.
• throw__away7391 4y ago
  > I’m what you’d probably consider a proponent of social justice. These "purity" movements will eventually come for everybody. I don't think it is even fair to call what these "far left" people are doing "far left" because they're not actually pushing any new position and if anything are drifting to the right on a number of economic issues that were previously center stage. They are just employing extremist tactics on already broadly accepted positions, and looking for opportunities to edge lord.
  • dragonwriter 4y ago
    > I don’t think it is even fair to call what these “far left” people are doing “far left” Institutional efforts at managing the internal environment and PR by notable right-wing institution Stanford University (home of the Hoover Institution) are not being done by people that are, claim to be, or are assumed by anyone else to be “far left”.
    • throw__away7391 4y ago
      > people that are... Well that is my point. > ...claim to be, or are assumed by anyone else Gotta disagree there, in 2021 the self-identified breakdown was: 60.6% Democrat, 21.6% Independent, 9.1% Socialist, 4.9% Republican, 3.8% Other (https://drive.google.com/file/d/16r96A47pFcXQF2Z2Ei7ZvoXyBe8demhF/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/16r96A47pFcXQF2Z2Ei7ZvoXyBe8...)
      • dragonwriter 4y ago
        Even if that was the same population as crafting this policy, the vast majority of those identities are not “far left” by any sane definition.
  • antihero 4y ago
    Oh I've been come for before. Try being a white cis-presenting dude trying to mediate between trans people who have braids who are being personally harrassed and threatened by members the local university queer PoC society who say they felt threatened by their presence at the last trans-pride march. There's some seriously bad eggs in student politics, who often create a culture of extremism by guilting their peers into feeling they aren't towing the line enough or going far enough. You just have to ride the wave, take stock, take a break and then someday keep fighting the good fight once your mental health recovers. And be thankful nobody has guns.