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The Windows Subsystem for Android now runs Android 13 in beta
- ggm 4y agoI am sure I am not alone in finding the lexical structure of the "windows subsystem for... " very unfortunate. Windows is the dom0 and the android or linux is the domU instance. Kinda. It's windows hosted Android. or Android as a subsystem hosted on windows. Android running on Windows. But no, it has to be "for" But I bet they workshopped it for hours in the marketing department and decided Windows had to come "first"
- kevingadd 4y agoNot especially new terminology though, they used that 'Windows S... for <x>' framing for the original unix subsystem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX Subsystems are pretty old Windows tech and it's cool to finally see the Android one come back. AFAIK they started with an Android one before ditching it to pivot to WSL. I think there may have been an OS/2 subsystem for a bit at one point as well?
- becurious 4y agoProject Astoria to allow Android apps to run on Windows Phone. Though WSL2 is not a classic NT kernel subsystem in the way WSL1 was.
- rewgs 4y agoMicrosoft is baffling bad at naming things. I sometimes think that they’re playing a game to see just how badly they can name their products before they start to lose money.
- PaulHoule 4y agoYou’ve got to be quite the gamer to understand the hierarchy of XBOX consoles.
- tomrod 4y agoThere have been like 3 throughout history, right? We are to the Xbox 36One?
- PaulHoule 4y agoBase, 360, One, and Series One!
- eclipxe 4y agoAnd Series X
- eclipxe 4y agoAnd Xbox One S
- pca184 4y agoAnd the Xbox Series S!
- eyelidlessness 4y agoHuge if true
- LocalH 4y agostill waiting on the Xbox SX and then the enhanced Xbox SEX
- dragonwriter 4y agoBase, 360 (360 S, 360 E), One (One S, One X), Series (Series S and Series X)
- rewgs 4y ago
- ironick09 4y agoThere is a reason why it is named what it is: The Windows Subsystem for Android now runs Android 13 in beta https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34060390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34060390
- jonhohle 4y agoI think the problem is that the name could be interpreted as a subsystem that runs on Android to provide a Windows API or services. I had that issue with WSL; it sounds like it could be the name of an official WINE-like product from Microsoft. “For” is often used to specify the target.
- pitterpatter 4y agoEdge is probably the one that annoyed me the most
- MishaalRahman 4y agoThe reason it's named that way is because of Google's trademark on Android. Per Rich Turner @ Microsoft: "As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's not about positioning of words, it's about the legalities of trademark usage; we cannot lead a product name with a term trademarked by someone else." Source: https://twitter.com/richturn_ms/status/1245742145119510529 https://twitter.com/richturn_ms/status/1245742145119510529
- dataflow 4y agoThis keeps coming up and I keep saying that, if the issue is the leading term, they could've just called it the Windows Android Subsystem. (I suspect the real issue is that "for" makes it clearer this is a third-party thing, but nobody ever mentions that.)
- ocdtrekkie 4y agoI believe Android branding guidelines explicitly only allow the use of it by third parties in the form of "for Android".
- gpm 4y agoAndroid branding guidelines are very unlikely to matter at this point, given that it's descriptive use (not forbidden by trademark law in the first place) anyways...
- gibolt 4y agoThis is Microsoft using Google branding. That isn't a risk worth taking, even if more Android access benefits Google
- czx4f4bd 4y agoI don't think that's what descriptive fair use means. > Descriptive Fair Use: Found at 15 U.S.C. § 1115(b)(4), the descriptive fair use defense protects your ability to use ordinary words to describe your own goods or services, even if those words happen to be part of someone's trademark. https://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/using-trademarks-others https://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/using-trademarks-others Since the Windows Subsystem for Android actually runs Android, "Windows Subsystem for Android" is a product name and not just a description, and "Android" isn't a generic descriptive term in this context, it seems to me that Microsoft is using Google's Android trademark in a way that isn't protected as fair use.
- andrecarini 4y ago> decided Windows had to come "first" I heard someone say it here at HN that the reason it's worded this way is to avoid copyright infringement issues if they were to lead the name with someone else's trademark.
- MishaalRahman 4y ago>As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's not about positioning of words, it's about the legalities of trademark usage; we cannot lead a product name with a term trademarked by someone else Source: https://twitter.com/richturn_ms/status/1245742145119510529 https://twitter.com/richturn_ms/status/1245742145119510529
- 8note 4y agoWithout knowing what it actually is, the name gives me the assumption that I can start an Android instance through PowerShell, and it can do things in a kinda, but not quite native way
- constantlm 4y agoWhile I know what it is, it reads the opposite way for me - like, it's some sort of Windows running on Android
- DrammBA 4y agoAs another perspective, your comment is the first time I read the terms "dom0" and "domU instance", and "Windows subsystem" is the only phrase in my vocabulary that uses the word "subsystem". With that perspective, "Windows Subsystem for X" makes total sense in my mind. To me it means that Windows (as an operating system) has one (or more) Subsystems, and those subsystems are created for specific use cases, for example we have a Windows Subsystem for Linux, and another Windows Subsystem for Android, and they'll probably create more Subsystems in the future. I'm sure it sounds wrong for people with your level of education and background, but to people like me it's actually very descriptive and straight forward.
- ggm 4y agoA totally valid perspective. I am probably coming at this with prior-art in mind and you're coming at it (presumed, and no insult intended) from inside the MS ecosystem which is after all the core market. If the term makes sense for windows users, windows administrators it did it's job.
- rpeden 4y agoIt's worth noting that subsystems are an old Windows concept dating back to the original Windows NT in 1993. The win32 API itself is a subsystem of the underlying NT system. And the WoW64 subsystem allows 32-bit Windows apps to run on 64-bit Windows. There used to be POSIX and OS/2 subsystems, as well. I believe the "Windows Subsystem for x" nomenclature is a departure from the way MS previously described subsystems. That doesn't mean it is wrong, though. Just a bit inconsistent.
- croes 4y agoIsn't the WSA a layer between Windows and Android to map Android calls to the corresponding Windows calls?
- nullish_signal 4y ago"Windows running Android"?
- dragonwriter 4y agoThe Windows Subsystem for X is the thing that allows X to run on top of Windows. If there was going to be a “Windows Hosted X”, it would be the thing that runs on top, but they mostly just call that X.
- karmakaze 4y agoI had the same difficulty making sense of, and internalizing, the naming. What finally stuck for me is not to parse it as "(Windows subsystem) for ..." but rather as "Windows' (subsystem for ...)". Related rant: I don't like the "reverse-proxy" naming--it's not self-explanatory. It's only historical that client proxies came first and thus server-proxies are 'reverse' (other end). The proxy is a stand-in for a client or for a server, so client proxy or server proxy (or proxy-client or proxy-server). I've come to accept the historically arbitrary naming.
- tgv 4y agoI read it more like "the (Windows subsytem) for ...", but the outcome is the same. Our language system, however, has a strong penchant for what's known as right attachment: constituents such as the prepositional phrase (in this case "for ...") are preferably attached below the preceding constituent, and that preference already takes effect at the preposition, so the decision is made before knowing the complete sentence. Because the sentence is ambiguous, you get stuck on the wrong interpretation. Curiously enough, I have the same feeling about reverse proxy. Neither proxy reverses anything functional. A reverse proxy would be something that lets you talk to the proxied entity directly, a tunnel perhaps.
- HeckFeck 4y agoExactly the point. Were I describing the concept, I'd say 'It is a Linux subsystem for Windows', if I said 'a Windows subsystem for Linux', you'd think I meant WINE. I hate the loss of clarity in our speech and I wonder what the cumulative effect will be.
- cs702 4y agoIt sure looks like an attempt to create one platform to rule them all: The long-term goal seems to be to enable different factions to run the operating system of their choice... as a subsystem of Windows.
- askvictor 4y agoAre you envisaging Windows Subsystem for iOS and Windows subsystem for OSX?
- nonethewiser 4y agoThat sounds great
- exq 4y agoEmbrace, extend, extinguish
- ClumsyPilot 4y agoThis old chestbut is long past its expiration date
- kreeben 4y ago
- sergiomattei 4y agoDespite your shallow dismissal, it turns out there's an intellectually interesting reason why the name is that way: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34060390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34060390 Without that comment, I would've never found out.
- kreeben 4y agoHey everybody I'm back!
- bottlepalm 4y agoI'm also surprised that the top post is about the ordering of some words, it never even crossed my mind, and really emphasizes how no matter what people will find something to be upset about. Like we can't have comments like, 'hey that's neat, I wonder how xyz technical challenge was figured out' I'm sure a lot of work went into this.
- heavyset_go 4y agoGoogle's SafetyNet, remote attestation and other anticompetitive features will ensure that Android apps won't run on Windows.
- maxloh 4y agoMaybe with MicroG?
- Scharkenberg 4y agoIf of interest, one can also pre-install Google Play Services during the prep work for sideloading WSA.
- dan-0 4y agoHow so? Remote attestation and other SafetyNet features are a product decision to use. If a company has an app that only allows itself to be run on a device with SafetyNet isn't that on them? Google doesn't force you to use it.
- c0wb0yc0d3r 4y agoI think that is what the parent meant. SafetyNet will "prevent" android apps from running, as far as a (non-technical) user is concerned.
- heavyset_go 4y agoGoogle is providing the means to ensure apps will not run on anything but Google-blessed versions of Android. If Microsoft had done the same, countless games and applications wouldn't run on WINE, and Proton and the Steam Deck wouldn't exist. Security can be implemented in ways that aren't blatantly anticompetitive, but Google chose to go down the anticompetitive route for their offerings.
- blibble 4y agoas someone who was around in the 2000s where MS utterly dominated the computing industry (thankfully now ancient history) the chap in the comments complaining that the company dominating this specific market (Google) is being MEAN to Microsoft by not helping them out by supporting their competing platform really is quite amusing > Google historically has never supported MS in any of their initiatives. This is the same company that tried to destroy Windows Phone by repeatedly killing the YouTube app that MS made and never developed any apps for the platform. They have zero presence on the Microsoft Store, even Apple has their apps on the MS Store. I heard of them doing shady things with the Edge browser as well. meanwhile I'm still here waiting for my native Linux ports of Office and Halo?
- nonethewiser 4y agoDont be evil
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago> company dominating this specific market (Google) is being MEAN to Microsoft by not helping them out Google is sp much more dangerous than mocrpspft ever was - they track near realtome location of billions of people. Theu have private data. In its heyday, microspft had millions of computers, half of them werent even connected to the internet. Most were for business, and even domestic ones were usually on 3 hours a day for games or work. Peak of personal data was havong a few photos or assignment frok school. What were they going to do, steal your spreadsheet? > meanwhile I'm still here waiting for my native Linux ports of Office and Halo? As a developer I am waiting for all linux dudes to finish fighting it oit, but the drama has been going on for 15 years: numeroius Ui toolkits, wayland vs Xwhatever, some drama around repositories and flatpack, some drama around vendoring dependencies vs debianndevelopers supplying versions they choose, musl vs glibc, systemd, etc. You need to spend more effort on linux than you do on mac and windows combined. This is why web and google has won, and sadly dektop apps are dying - endless infighting. And they have a way of praising it as innovation of alternatives, but havong 10 slightly different solutions is not innovation. Half of the battles seem to be ideological.
- 4y ago
- Mountain_Skies 4y agoWonder how long they'll keep trying to use this as a carrot to "upgrade" to Windows 11 before giving in an letting it run on Windows 10? Remember when it was impossible for the Xbox to function without Kinect but when customers rejected the platform due to he Kinect requirement, they suddenly discovered a way for the console to not need the Kinect?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- naikrovek 4y agoputting upgrade in quotes labels you as a perfectly level-headed thinker with no predetermined judgements. mm-hmm.
- intern4tional 4y agoRemoving Kinect was engineering work though, it may not have been visible to people outside of MS, but internally there was work required. There isn't any "letting it run" here, there is does Microsoft want to backport this feature to Windows 10? There are challenges with that as the hardware support is much more varied for Windows 10 than 11 and so there are impacts to consider ranging from the weaker hardware requirements for 10 to how these things are integrated in with the OS. Source: I worked at MS, on the OS codebase in security. Kinect / XBOX is much simpler than this as the hardware was at least known and standardized.
- pjmlp 4y agoThey will try everything, apparently. Also I get the feeling that everyone that cares about their long term career at Microsoft are now on Azure, as the future Cloud OS from Microsoft, so we end up with these gimmicks trying to sell needless upgrades. Yet what they could do better than anything else would be to move away from COM / C++ mindset at WinDev, but alas, that is asking too much.
- Dalewyn 4y agoJust over 2 years. At that point Windows 10 will be EOL, so Microsoft would have a legitimate excuse to give no subsequent fucks. Anyone who needs or cares about manufacturer support will downgrade at that point. As for the never-downgrade diehards, well, they were never going to downgrade anyway (source: me, Windows 7 machine as daily driver for non-gaming tasks).
- marcodiego 4y agoIf anyone wants to run Android apps on a desktop linux distro, I was reasonably successful with Waydroid. Can't compare with other alternatives though. My post at the time was this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28624170 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28624170
- pram 4y agoI'm ignorant in this subject: why didn't Microsoft just make their own Android app store. Having to use and publish to the Amazon one feels kinda... weird
- pavlov 4y agoIt's a "two turkeys make an eagle" kind of partnership deal, fairly typical in the industry. When you're a big company and not a leader at something, it's not worth the investment to build a new solution, but your existing partnerships teams can be deployed to team up with another similar company in the hope that your lackluster offerings together will magically fuse into the product that neither was able to create.
- xnx 4y agoIt's also weird that Google will allow you to run Android apps on Windows, but only a few select games via the Google Play Games beta (https://play.google.com/googleplaygames https://play.google.com/googleplaygames).