7 ms·

This jives with my theory of what makes bad TV: bad writing. It's exactly why I've never revisited Lost, even though I loved the first few seasons. The suspense

This jives with my theory of what makes bad TV: bad writing. It's exactly why I've never revisited Lost, even though I loved the first few seasons. The suspense and mystery never paid off, and it was too important a piece of the entire show to bother trying again. Oddly, Battlestar Galactica has provided a pleasant rewatch every year or two for me for the past decade. It has good writing within each episode, and even though it doesn't hold up in the final season, the writing is overall satisfying enough that I don't avoid it entirely. I could probably write something really mean about Westworld here but I'll just instead say that it's really, really, really sad that they canceled it after season 1. I'm sure the writers would have built satisfyingly on the world established in season 1 instead of jumping off the rails and expanding into unnecessary niches of convoluted storytelling.

Izkata 4y ago
> It's exactly why I've never revisited Lost, even though I loved the first few seasons. The suspense and mystery never paid off, and it was too important a piece of the entire show to bother trying again. I'm not gonna claim it was good or anything, but Lost was more than just the show - and a lot of the payoff for the island's mysteries came from the ARG The Lost Experience - https://lostpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Lost_Experience https://lostpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Lost_Experience > The narrative for the The Lost Experience was designed to be a parallel story line not part of the TV show. Considering the deep mythology to LOST, the Experience acted as a way to cover some background that could not be feasibly addressed in such depth on the main show. In particular, TLE developed the backstory to the DHARMA Initiative and its parent company, the Hanso Foundation. It also established some clues about the Island and the true meaning of the numbers.
ravenstine 4y ago
Some people still think Lost was good after around the first 3 seasons. Like you, I gave up after that because it was pretty clear that the show would be nothing but red herrings and new distractions. When my parents tuned in to watch the final episode, I predicted that the ending would be bullshit and not resolve anything. That's exactly what happened. Yet so many people who watched the show all the way through are in denial to this day. > I could probably write something really mean about Westworld here but I'll just instead say that it's really, really, really sad that they canceled it after season 1. Funny, because by the end of Westworld season 1 my first thought was that it was just going to be like Lost. The "maze" gave me "hatch" vibes, and I noped out permanently.
- prawn 4y ago
  Don't look back - you made the right call. I enjoyed Westworld S1, and just finished S4. So full of self-important idiocy. Every line half-whispered as though it's the ultimate drama, but not a single character anyone might care about or identify with. One of their problems was dragging various actors/characters through season after season - I got absolutely sick of every single one of them. I don't know how they managed their lines with a straight face. Another was setting everyone up for this ongoing global-stakes quest. Andor just showed that you can make an exceptional story out of small slices of a bigger setting. It often feels to me that when a show/movie sees its character attain super powers, they struggle with storytelling afterwards, being forced to invent higher and higher stakes. Marvel movies (outside of something like Logan), The Matrix (IMO), etc.
  - Melatonic 4y ago
    Westworld had so much potential and in the end it just all became basically magic pulled out of thin air. Even going to the real world I thought was awesome - it just got TOO out there
    - prawn 4y ago
      Was it best just wrapped up as a nice, concise package? As an example, Ex Machina was great, but I don't need to see Ex Machina II: The Adventures of Ava. Or if there's value in Westworld (the other themeparks, James Delos storyline, etc), tell a fresh story in that world. Dragging out Maeve and her daughter was tiresome. It ended up with zero tension, despite all the grand standing. I just didn't care who was about to fight who and even less who might win. The ideas were convoluted and pointless. S2-3 had some decent ideas/plans mixed in. S4 had almost nothing I think would be worth keeping.
rossmohax 4y ago
Final season of Battlestar Galactica was a flop because of Hollywood screenwriters strike which lasted 3 months
woobar 4y ago
Interesting. I liked the original run of the Lost. I've liked it even more when I rewatched it a few times. For me the characters were the most important part of the show, and writers did a great job developing them. I also see a common thread about "good first seasons", but theses seasons were more about ever growing mysteries. Second half of the run gave us great episodes like The Constant, LaFleur, or Ab Aeterno. Me caring for the characters is what made them great. And writing is what makes me care about these characters. The mysteries were fun and most of them resolved by the end of the show, but for me it is a lesser part of the show.
pessimizer 4y ago
Lost was one of a breed of "mystery pilots," where high-concept pilots imply deep and complicated backstories to explain that concept, by filling themselves with surreal non-sequiturs. If the pilots get picked up, the writers have to come up with a story to connect the nonsense. In the worst case, which I believe is the case with Lost, the people who wrote the pilot have actually moved on to the next project once it gets picked up, and a completely different set of people have to interpolate some kind of sense out of the pilot to continue the series. The continuing story of Lost (and similar series) was a desperate improvisation being written by hired guns of whom there's no reason to think that they would have any more affection for the show than a random person off the street. For an on-the-nose example, check out the recent, similarly-named FROM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_(TV_series) For a fun (<- minority view) absolute commercial and storytelling disaster version, check out Aftermath(RIP): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermath_(2016_TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermath_(2016_TV_series)
- woobar 4y ago
  This is not how Lost was developed. The original idea was from an ABC exec, they hired a writer that failed. They hired another two who came with the general plot, the theme and a plan for five seasons of the series. This was their show, not some randos.
- somehnacct3757 4y ago
  I avoid anything by Abrams or Lindelof at this point because they are emblematic of this writing formula. You can see it in Lindelof's The Leftovers, Abrams' Star Wars, and of course LOST. It's also present in any pilot they help create, for example Once Upon A Time. I agree with your deconstruction: these shows are optimized for selling an engaging pilot episode with only a back of the napkin roadmap for the rest of the show. The finale comes only when there's no more money to be made. I'm very excited by writers like Baran bo Odar and Jantje Friese who are able to write interwoven plots comparable to LOST, but with cohesive endings. Check out Dark for an example.
  - aaronbrethorst 4y ago
WalterBright 4y ago
WW bored me with the endless McGuffin of who is a robot and who is a human. Zzzzz. Isn't BSG the same?
- genocidicbunny 4y ago
  Not really. BSG quickly established that there's only a few different models, and who most of them were, but many copies of each. There were certainly a few 'surprise, that person's a Cylon!' moments throughout the show, but I think they were all quite well done. (Though to be fair, for at least two of the cylon characters, you could immediately tell they were a cylon because it was a famous actor playing them.) If anything, I think in the earlier seasons BSG went for more of the 'cylon, human, who cares, they're all screwed up' feel.
coredog64 4y ago
Not having an ending for “Westworld” is very on brand for a Michael Crichton property.

Izkata 4y ago

> It's exactly why I've never revisited Lost, even though I loved the first few seasons. The suspense and mystery never paid off, and it was too important a piece of the entire show to bother trying again. I'm not gonna claim it was good or anything, but Lost was more than just the show - and a lot of the payoff for the island's mysteries came from the ARG The Lost Experience - https://lostpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Lost_Experience https://lostpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Lost_Experience > The narrative for the The Lost Experience was designed to be a parallel story line not part of the TV show. Considering the deep mythology to LOST, the Experience acted as a way to cover some background that could not be feasibly addressed in such depth on the main show. In particular, TLE developed the backstory to the DHARMA Initiative and its parent company, the Hanso Foundation. It also established some clues about the Island and the true meaning of the numbers.

ravenstine 4y ago

Some people still think Lost was good after around the first 3 seasons. Like you, I gave up after that because it was pretty clear that the show would be nothing but red herrings and new distractions. When my parents tuned in to watch the final episode, I predicted that the ending would be bullshit and not resolve anything. That's exactly what happened. Yet so many people who watched the show all the way through are in denial to this day. > I could probably write something really mean about Westworld here but I'll just instead say that it's really, really, really sad that they canceled it after season 1. Funny, because by the end of Westworld season 1 my first thought was that it was just going to be like Lost. The "maze" gave me "hatch" vibes, and I noped out permanently.

prawn 4y ago
Don't look back - you made the right call. I enjoyed Westworld S1, and just finished S4. So full of self-important idiocy. Every line half-whispered as though it's the ultimate drama, but not a single character anyone might care about or identify with. One of their problems was dragging various actors/characters through season after season - I got absolutely sick of every single one of them. I don't know how they managed their lines with a straight face. Another was setting everyone up for this ongoing global-stakes quest. Andor just showed that you can make an exceptional story out of small slices of a bigger setting. It often feels to me that when a show/movie sees its character attain super powers, they struggle with storytelling afterwards, being forced to invent higher and higher stakes. Marvel movies (outside of something like Logan), The Matrix (IMO), etc.
- Melatonic 4y ago
  Westworld had so much potential and in the end it just all became basically magic pulled out of thin air. Even going to the real world I thought was awesome - it just got TOO out there
  - prawn 4y ago
    Was it best just wrapped up as a nice, concise package? As an example, Ex Machina was great, but I don't need to see Ex Machina II: The Adventures of Ava. Or if there's value in Westworld (the other themeparks, James Delos storyline, etc), tell a fresh story in that world. Dragging out Maeve and her daughter was tiresome. It ended up with zero tension, despite all the grand standing. I just didn't care who was about to fight who and even less who might win. The ideas were convoluted and pointless. S2-3 had some decent ideas/plans mixed in. S4 had almost nothing I think would be worth keeping.

rossmohax 4y ago

Final season of Battlestar Galactica was a flop because of Hollywood screenwriters strike which lasted 3 months

woobar 4y ago

Interesting. I liked the original run of the Lost. I've liked it even more when I rewatched it a few times. For me the characters were the most important part of the show, and writers did a great job developing them. I also see a common thread about "good first seasons", but theses seasons were more about ever growing mysteries. Second half of the run gave us great episodes like The Constant, LaFleur, or Ab Aeterno. Me caring for the characters is what made them great. And writing is what makes me care about these characters. The mysteries were fun and most of them resolved by the end of the show, but for me it is a lesser part of the show.

pessimizer 4y ago

Lost was one of a breed of "mystery pilots," where high-concept pilots imply deep and complicated backstories to explain that concept, by filling themselves with surreal non-sequiturs. If the pilots get picked up, the writers have to come up with a story to connect the nonsense. In the worst case, which I believe is the case with Lost, the people who wrote the pilot have actually moved on to the next project once it gets picked up, and a completely different set of people have to interpolate some kind of sense out of the pilot to continue the series. The continuing story of Lost (and similar series) was a desperate improvisation being written by hired guns of whom there's no reason to think that they would have any more affection for the show than a random person off the street. For an on-the-nose example, check out the recent, similarly-named FROM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_(TV_series) For a fun (<- minority view) absolute commercial and storytelling disaster version, check out Aftermath(RIP): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermath_(2016_TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermath_(2016_TV_series)

woobar 4y ago
This is not how Lost was developed. The original idea was from an ABC exec, they hired a writer that failed. They hired another two who came with the general plot, the theme and a plan for five seasons of the series. This was their show, not some randos.
somehnacct3757 4y ago
I avoid anything by Abrams or Lindelof at this point because they are emblematic of this writing formula. You can see it in Lindelof's The Leftovers, Abrams' Star Wars, and of course LOST. It's also present in any pilot they help create, for example Once Upon A Time. I agree with your deconstruction: these shows are optimized for selling an engaging pilot episode with only a back of the napkin roadmap for the rest of the show. The finale comes only when there's no more money to be made. I'm very excited by writers like Baran bo Odar and Jantje Friese who are able to write interwoven plots comparable to LOST, but with cohesive endings. Check out Dark for an example.
- aaronbrethorst 4y ago

WalterBright 4y ago

WW bored me with the endless McGuffin of who is a robot and who is a human. Zzzzz. Isn't BSG the same?

genocidicbunny 4y ago
Not really. BSG quickly established that there's only a few different models, and who most of them were, but many copies of each. There were certainly a few 'surprise, that person's a Cylon!' moments throughout the show, but I think they were all quite well done. (Though to be fair, for at least two of the cylon characters, you could immediately tell they were a cylon because it was a famous actor playing them.) If anything, I think in the earlier seasons BSG went for more of the 'cylon, human, who cares, they're all screwed up' feel.

coredog64 4y ago

Not having an ending for “Westworld” is very on brand for a Michael Crichton property.