7 ms·

I will never understand who needs cars this quick. The marketing of EVs seems to be all around 0-60 speeds, but 90% of the people I know are infinitely more con

I will never understand who needs cars this quick. The marketing of EVs seems to be all around 0-60 speeds, but 90% of the people I know are infinitely more concerned with price, charging speed, and range.

Tempest1981 4y ago
The same reason all cars seem to have 160 mph speedometers.
rapsey 4y ago
Because EVs are expensive they must appeal to the market who is willing to spend more and that market needs cars to be fun.
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  Fun as acceleration is not really the interesting part of car fun. That's tight cornering, well-balanced front and back, feeling of total control and precision of big chunk of metal and similar. I do mean on regular roads and not just tracks, there its even more crucial. But this requires from manufacturer much more than just slapping a heavy battery and putting the power of it straight to the wheels... whole platform needs to be fine-tuned in many aspects to achieve this. In normal price category BMW delivers this better than most peers in their classical models like 3 series. I had one for 10 years, only 200 HP V6 diesel but it was an excellent car for the driver, I properly enjoyed every drive that wasn't about cities and traffic jams. I certainly never felt I needed more power. Also very well balanced mechanical connection of steering wheel to straight to front wheels gave the connection to the car that no modern electronic cars including Porsche can deliver (and EVs are not even trying in any of this regard). There are problems with this though, most buyers willing to pay premium are in traffic jams and cities, so you are not getting most of the value brands like BMW deliver. Then you are only left with acceleration part (well not that much in those traffic jams). Also it requires driving skills that take years to build with just driving the car (certainly for me, I wasn't using full potential of the car for maybe first 5 years of ownership), unlike just slamming gas pedal and holding steering wheel for your life.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - slaw 4y ago
    > That's tight cornering, well-balanced front and back, feeling of total control and precision of big chunk of metal and similar. That is nor really the interesting part of car fun, neither is acceleration. Going to barely accessible trailhead high in the mountains, fording streams, going on a narrow mountain road, that what makes car driving interesting. I always look in a car 1) what is the biggest tire I can fit, should be at least 33 inches 2) ground clearance 3) suspension travel.
    - brianwawok 4y ago
      Thats not the interesting part of car fun. The part that is fun to me is to drive a couple hundred miles with the car doing the lane centering and passing for me, so I arrive fresh.
      - slaw 4y ago
        On a highway I don't care for lane centering and passing, I want car to drive itself while I am taking a nap.
        brianwawok 4y ago
        That would be a fine next step. Can’t buy today though.
        forgotpwd16 4y ago
        Can but it's a coin flip whether you reach your destination or end up in a ditch.
- michaelt 4y ago
  In that case, I can't understand why so many EVs are ugly-ass crossovers. Who the hell has said to themselves well, the Ford Mustang is great, but it would be much more fun if instead of being a 2-door convertible, it was a practical family car and had 4 doors so you can help little Khaleesi into her car seat? Who are these car designers saying the Lotus Elise is an iconic 2-seater roadster with a very low driving position, but you know what would be even more fun? A 4-door crossover with a much higher driving position, so our elderly and overweight customers can get in and out without straining their knees?
  - cjrp 4y ago
    Lotus make a 2-seat roadster EV https://www.lotuscars.com/en-GB/evija https://www.lotuscars.com/en-GB/evija. So they're trying to cover different segments.
  - travisporter 4y ago
    I’m in the market for a car and the short answer is my partner wants room
  - forgotpwd16 4y ago
    >A 4-door crossover with a much higher driving position Wonder how weight distribution (batteries placed within frame at bottom) of EVs impacts driving.
    - Tagbert 4y ago
      EVs generally have very stable cornering as they don’t roll much due to the low weight and they have a 50/50 weight distribution. Having said that, they are heavy and so are not nimble in switching directions.
  - klooney 4y ago
    Cars are unpopular, crossovers are popular. That's what the people want.
clouddrover 4y ago
Then 90% of the people you know want a non-GT Kia EV6. There are different trim levels for the EV6 and you can pick the one you like the best: https://www.caranddriver.com/kia/ev6 https://www.caranddriver.com/kia/ev6 Complaining that you don't like the performance version is a bit odd. You don't have to buy it.
SilverBirch 4y ago
It’s their one trick, the operation of electric motors mean that you get Max torque immediately so they can put power down at the low end very effectively. So yes, we all know we want price, charge speed and range, but marketing is about selling what you have, not redesigning the product. It’s like the clip from mad men when they decide to advertise cigarettes as “Toasted”. You’d like to say they don’t cause cancer… but you can’t, so you say something else instead.
- clouddrover 4y ago
  > It’s their one trick Two other tricks of the EV6 are: - 18 minute 10-80% charge time in ideal conditions (which is very good) - Vehicle to load capability. You can run appliances off the battery. If you're desperate you can charge another EV (but it will be slow).
  - fragmede 4y ago
    Those are neat! Are there any EVs you can tow behind another vehicle and have that charge it's battery?
    - clouddrover 4y ago
      Yes, all EVs with regenerative braking. You can also charge it by rolling it down a hill. Tow charge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaGVoB4Zn-Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaGVoB4Zn-Y Another tow charge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gxi4sn3KXg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gxi4sn3KXg Gravity charge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k5wAaDZw1o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k5wAaDZw1o
  - pmontra 4y ago
    - 18 minute 10-80% charge time in ideal conditions (which is very good) Having to wait almost 20 minutes on a 60 minutes commute is far from ideal. That time is very good when one recharges at home or during a long trip or at destination (office / mall / etc) while doing other things. But in the last case it takes away a charging spot until the owner comes back. How is that managed now?
neallindsay 4y ago
Nobody needs that much acceleration, but it helps drive home the fact that EVs have real advantages over combustion cars beyond not destroying the environment. And while you’re not going to stomp the pedal to the floor at every green light, instant torque is very nice.
- bamboozled 4y ago
  I like EVs but isn't mining for Lithium still destroying the environment ?
  - neallindsay 4y ago
    Mining for lithium is destroying the environment much less than mining for oil is. But yes, going without a car completely is better than driving an electric car.
  - saturn_vk 4y ago
    Isn't Lithium obtained from salt-water evaporation pools?
    - throwayyy479087 4y ago
      Yes. The anti-lithium thing is a Big Oil campaign that people are falling for. They frequently use pictures of _coal mining_ as Lithium. Lithium is mostly made the same way as salt - just like you said. There are a few pit mines, but we also do that for .... everything else. Including oil!
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    Caring about pit mining and watersheds is so 1972. Get with the times granpa. We care about carbon now. /s All mining is bad for the environment to an extent. The total environmental impact of EVs appears to be substantially less than ICE vehicles, all things included.
    - bamboozled 4y ago
trabant00 4y ago
You can't really successfully market based on your weaknesses, now can you? Price, charging speed and range are all inferior to ICE vehicles and will be for some years still. And you also can't ignore the democratization of supercar acceleration that electric brings. It's the strong point of electric, why would they not show case it?
kleiba 4y ago
Germans.
Swizec 4y ago
Since you are limited by top speed on public roads, the important variable becomes average speed. You improve that with good acceleration and fantastic brakes. See also: People buy power but use torque (acceleration).
bydlocoder 4y ago
I don't really know but guess more powerful electric motors don't cost that much more than less powerful. With ICE cars going from reasonable 200hp to say 600hp requires lots of stuff - large displacement at high RPM or turbos, better cooling and gearbox. It seems that with electric cars this kind of power is essentially free.
UkiahSmith 4y ago
Have you ever merged onto an expressway behind someone doing 20mpg? It's terrifying. Acceleration makes merging onto expressways safer.
pulse7 4y ago
In the current situation where EV prices are at least 10K USD higher than non-EV equivalents you pay up-front more than you save (gas vs. electricity) in the next 5 years... It is currently economically better to buy non-EVs...
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  But cars last a lot longer than 5 years. And most people buying a used car are going to care about running costs a lot more than people buying new cars, so I expect the used EV premium to be substantial. Any TCO analysis for keeping a new car for 5 years is going to be dominated by the trade in value. That's going to be a lot higher for EV's than gasoline cars, so I assert that you're better off financially buying an EV even at a $10k premium.
  - Karunamon 4y ago
    Aren't the drive battery packs the single most expensive part of an EV? Anyone buying a used one with any kind of substantial mileage can expect a harsh loss of range.
    - bryanlarsen 4y ago
      Sure, if you buy a Nissan Leaf.
      - neallindsay 4y ago
        To expand on this a bit, Nissan Leafs (Leaves?) are the only electric cars produced in significant quantity that rely on passive cooling for their batteries. Heat is the main enemy of battery health. So you can easily find an old Leaf who's max range is literally half of what it was when brand new. It depends a lot on how hard it was used. Other EVs on the road are much better at managing battery health, such that it will never make sense to replace their main battery outside catastrophic events. If your electric car is going to die, it will almost certainly be from a bad collision, like any car. Anyhow, the Nissan Leaf compares poorly on a lot of fronts to any modern EV available in the U.S. Most people in the market for an affordable EV should probably look at the Chevy Bolt first (now that they fixed the battery flaw that caused them to burn down). But if you're really looking for a cheap used EV and in the market for a Leaf, get yourself a Bluetooth ODB2 dongle and an app called LeafSpy to check on the battery health before you buy it.
bryanlarsen 4y ago
The primary reason that EV's have a fast 0-60 is that it's related to a spec that you and most people care about: charging speed. Supporting a high charging speed is expensive. But once you've got a high charging speed you've got most of what you need for a high discharging speed. And then you have most of what you need for a fast 0-60. If it costs a few hundred extra to support a fast 0-60 and you can charge $10k-$20k extra for the feature....
- stefan_ 4y ago
  I think the root cause is just the market asking for oversized battery packs. That enables both the large instant current capability and high charging speed, without requiring too much additional cooling (it's all spread out). You still need to add the oversized current driving capabilities in the electronics that you wouldn't strictly need for fast charging, which is DC and bypasses most internal electronics anyway.
  - brianwawok 4y ago
    Oversized? There are very few EVs that can get 200 miles real range in the winter. Really need another 50% on top of that.
    - throwthroyaboat 4y ago
      I think this comes down to market economics more than product design. Many manufacturers have been production limited by cell supply for a long time. You _could_ make cars with extra large battery packs for those who live in exceptionally cold climates, but it's a limited market, and you'd be taking away cells from shorter range models. E.g. you're likely to make more money selling 5 cars with a 60kwh pack than 3 cars with a 100kwh pack.
e12e 4y ago
Few probably need this - but it could be at home on the autobahn - were you'd want to be able both drive at high speed, and change lanes/overtake other cars at high speed.
WirelessGigabit 4y ago
I read this a lot. Until you're in the USA and you're on an on-ramp that immediately merges. Then having < 5 seconds to 60 is nice for everybody's safety and comfort.
- Grazester 4y ago
  ...just don't merge? Something tells me with such a window to merge in you are probably looking into to mirrors and not accurately estimating the distance of the car from you either. Also don't rely on this because the road condition is not going to guarantee you get up to the needed speed in time(cold tires or undesirable road surface conditions). You don't need a sub 5 second car to safely merge.
  - throwthroyaboat 4y ago
    Eh, sometimes thats not an option if the an onramp doesn't create a new lane. I've lived and driven in California, Western Europe and New Zealand. Many (not all) California onramps come from tight cloverleafs or they are metered with stop lights, so you have to accelerate quickly to avoid going into the stopping lane (which will be covered in gravel, if it even exists). I never had this problem elsewhere.
  - WirelessGigabit 4y ago
    I invite you to stop here: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.9773012,-110.5310232,3a,75y,300.8h,80.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sptIUAKo06WYnAbybbvsI9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@34.9773012,-110.5310232,3a,75y,... when there is traffic coming in behind you. Please don't say: "oh it's a quiet road", I took the first example I could find of this kind of onramp.
    - Grazester 4y ago
      Looks like you have plenty road to get up to speed there or slow down if you need to before merging but don't have a lot of area to merge. I drive in NYC. Some of our merge lanes are pretty short also...if you can't merge you stop and wait...yes you're supposed to yield and not stop but guess what, if you simply can't merge what are you going to do run into a vehicle?
forgotpwd16 4y ago
This model seems more sport oriented so the people targeted at are probably more concerned with speed, handling, etc than charging, range, etc. Price is universal concern though.
TheHappyOddish 4y ago
Same price as a model Y performance, 60% of the range, and they don't mention the full charging speed (although it appears to be similar, the model Y with the new batteries appears to be 15m 10-80%). Also, same 0-100 speed. The years tick on, people keep arguing that the traditional manufacturers are launching the Tesla killer "any day now", and they still can't beat the golden triange.

Tempest1981 4y ago

The same reason all cars seem to have 160 mph speedometers.

rapsey 4y ago

Because EVs are expensive they must appeal to the market who is willing to spend more and that market needs cars to be fun.

saiya-jin 4y ago
Fun as acceleration is not really the interesting part of car fun. That's tight cornering, well-balanced front and back, feeling of total control and precision of big chunk of metal and similar. I do mean on regular roads and not just tracks, there its even more crucial. But this requires from manufacturer much more than just slapping a heavy battery and putting the power of it straight to the wheels... whole platform needs to be fine-tuned in many aspects to achieve this. In normal price category BMW delivers this better than most peers in their classical models like 3 series. I had one for 10 years, only 200 HP V6 diesel but it was an excellent car for the driver, I properly enjoyed every drive that wasn't about cities and traffic jams. I certainly never felt I needed more power. Also very well balanced mechanical connection of steering wheel to straight to front wheels gave the connection to the car that no modern electronic cars including Porsche can deliver (and EVs are not even trying in any of this regard). There are problems with this though, most buyers willing to pay premium are in traffic jams and cities, so you are not getting most of the value brands like BMW deliver. Then you are only left with acceleration part (well not that much in those traffic jams). Also it requires driving skills that take years to build with just driving the car (certainly for me, I wasn't using full potential of the car for maybe first 5 years of ownership), unlike just slamming gas pedal and holding steering wheel for your life.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- slaw 4y ago
  > That's tight cornering, well-balanced front and back, feeling of total control and precision of big chunk of metal and similar. That is nor really the interesting part of car fun, neither is acceleration. Going to barely accessible trailhead high in the mountains, fording streams, going on a narrow mountain road, that what makes car driving interesting. I always look in a car 1) what is the biggest tire I can fit, should be at least 33 inches 2) ground clearance 3) suspension travel.
  - brianwawok 4y ago
    Thats not the interesting part of car fun. The part that is fun to me is to drive a couple hundred miles with the car doing the lane centering and passing for me, so I arrive fresh.
    - slaw 4y ago
      On a highway I don't care for lane centering and passing, I want car to drive itself while I am taking a nap.
      - brianwawok 4y ago
        That would be a fine next step. Can’t buy today though.
        forgotpwd16 4y ago
        Can but it's a coin flip whether you reach your destination or end up in a ditch.
michaelt 4y ago
In that case, I can't understand why so many EVs are ugly-ass crossovers. Who the hell has said to themselves well, the Ford Mustang is great, but it would be much more fun if instead of being a 2-door convertible, it was a practical family car and had 4 doors so you can help little Khaleesi into her car seat? Who are these car designers saying the Lotus Elise is an iconic 2-seater roadster with a very low driving position, but you know what would be even more fun? A 4-door crossover with a much higher driving position, so our elderly and overweight customers can get in and out without straining their knees?
- cjrp 4y ago
  Lotus make a 2-seat roadster EV https://www.lotuscars.com/en-GB/evija https://www.lotuscars.com/en-GB/evija. So they're trying to cover different segments.
- travisporter 4y ago
  I’m in the market for a car and the short answer is my partner wants room
- forgotpwd16 4y ago
  >A 4-door crossover with a much higher driving position Wonder how weight distribution (batteries placed within frame at bottom) of EVs impacts driving.
  - Tagbert 4y ago
    EVs generally have very stable cornering as they don’t roll much due to the low weight and they have a 50/50 weight distribution. Having said that, they are heavy and so are not nimble in switching directions.
- klooney 4y ago
  Cars are unpopular, crossovers are popular. That's what the people want.

clouddrover 4y ago

Then 90% of the people you know want a non-GT Kia EV6. There are different trim levels for the EV6 and you can pick the one you like the best: https://www.caranddriver.com/kia/ev6 https://www.caranddriver.com/kia/ev6 Complaining that you don't like the performance version is a bit odd. You don't have to buy it.

SilverBirch 4y ago

It’s their one trick, the operation of electric motors mean that you get Max torque immediately so they can put power down at the low end very effectively. So yes, we all know we want price, charge speed and range, but marketing is about selling what you have, not redesigning the product. It’s like the clip from mad men when they decide to advertise cigarettes as “Toasted”. You’d like to say they don’t cause cancer… but you can’t, so you say something else instead.

clouddrover 4y ago
> It’s their one trick Two other tricks of the EV6 are: - 18 minute 10-80% charge time in ideal conditions (which is very good) - Vehicle to load capability. You can run appliances off the battery. If you're desperate you can charge another EV (but it will be slow).
- fragmede 4y ago
  Those are neat! Are there any EVs you can tow behind another vehicle and have that charge it's battery?
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    Yes, all EVs with regenerative braking. You can also charge it by rolling it down a hill. Tow charge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaGVoB4Zn-Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaGVoB4Zn-Y Another tow charge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gxi4sn3KXg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gxi4sn3KXg Gravity charge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k5wAaDZw1o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k5wAaDZw1o
- pmontra 4y ago
  - 18 minute 10-80% charge time in ideal conditions (which is very good) Having to wait almost 20 minutes on a 60 minutes commute is far from ideal. That time is very good when one recharges at home or during a long trip or at destination (office / mall / etc) while doing other things. But in the last case it takes away a charging spot until the owner comes back. How is that managed now?

neallindsay 4y ago

Nobody needs that much acceleration, but it helps drive home the fact that EVs have real advantages over combustion cars beyond not destroying the environment. And while you’re not going to stomp the pedal to the floor at every green light, instant torque is very nice.

bamboozled 4y ago
I like EVs but isn't mining for Lithium still destroying the environment ?
- neallindsay 4y ago
  Mining for lithium is destroying the environment much less than mining for oil is. But yes, going without a car completely is better than driving an electric car.
- saturn_vk 4y ago
  Isn't Lithium obtained from salt-water evaporation pools?
  - throwayyy479087 4y ago
    Yes. The anti-lithium thing is a Big Oil campaign that people are falling for. They frequently use pictures of _coal mining_ as Lithium. Lithium is mostly made the same way as salt - just like you said. There are a few pit mines, but we also do that for .... everything else. Including oil!
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  Caring about pit mining and watersheds is so 1972. Get with the times granpa. We care about carbon now. /s All mining is bad for the environment to an extent. The total environmental impact of EVs appears to be substantially less than ICE vehicles, all things included.
  - bamboozled 4y ago

trabant00 4y ago

You can't really successfully market based on your weaknesses, now can you? Price, charging speed and range are all inferior to ICE vehicles and will be for some years still. And you also can't ignore the democratization of supercar acceleration that electric brings. It's the strong point of electric, why would they not show case it?

kleiba 4y ago

Germans.

Swizec 4y ago

Since you are limited by top speed on public roads, the important variable becomes average speed. You improve that with good acceleration and fantastic brakes. See also: People buy power but use torque (acceleration).

bydlocoder 4y ago

I don't really know but guess more powerful electric motors don't cost that much more than less powerful. With ICE cars going from reasonable 200hp to say 600hp requires lots of stuff - large displacement at high RPM or turbos, better cooling and gearbox. It seems that with electric cars this kind of power is essentially free.

UkiahSmith 4y ago

Have you ever merged onto an expressway behind someone doing 20mpg? It's terrifying. Acceleration makes merging onto expressways safer.

pulse7 4y ago

In the current situation where EV prices are at least 10K USD higher than non-EV equivalents you pay up-front more than you save (gas vs. electricity) in the next 5 years... It is currently economically better to buy non-EVs...

bryanlarsen 4y ago
But cars last a lot longer than 5 years. And most people buying a used car are going to care about running costs a lot more than people buying new cars, so I expect the used EV premium to be substantial. Any TCO analysis for keeping a new car for 5 years is going to be dominated by the trade in value. That's going to be a lot higher for EV's than gasoline cars, so I assert that you're better off financially buying an EV even at a $10k premium.
- Karunamon 4y ago
  Aren't the drive battery packs the single most expensive part of an EV? Anyone buying a used one with any kind of substantial mileage can expect a harsh loss of range.
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    Sure, if you buy a Nissan Leaf.
    - neallindsay 4y ago
      To expand on this a bit, Nissan Leafs (Leaves?) are the only electric cars produced in significant quantity that rely on passive cooling for their batteries. Heat is the main enemy of battery health. So you can easily find an old Leaf who's max range is literally half of what it was when brand new. It depends a lot on how hard it was used. Other EVs on the road are much better at managing battery health, such that it will never make sense to replace their main battery outside catastrophic events. If your electric car is going to die, it will almost certainly be from a bad collision, like any car. Anyhow, the Nissan Leaf compares poorly on a lot of fronts to any modern EV available in the U.S. Most people in the market for an affordable EV should probably look at the Chevy Bolt first (now that they fixed the battery flaw that caused them to burn down). But if you're really looking for a cheap used EV and in the market for a Leaf, get yourself a Bluetooth ODB2 dongle and an app called LeafSpy to check on the battery health before you buy it.

bryanlarsen 4y ago

The primary reason that EV's have a fast 0-60 is that it's related to a spec that you and most people care about: charging speed. Supporting a high charging speed is expensive. But once you've got a high charging speed you've got most of what you need for a high discharging speed. And then you have most of what you need for a fast 0-60. If it costs a few hundred extra to support a fast 0-60 and you can charge $10k-$20k extra for the feature....

stefan_ 4y ago
I think the root cause is just the market asking for oversized battery packs. That enables both the large instant current capability and high charging speed, without requiring too much additional cooling (it's all spread out). You still need to add the oversized current driving capabilities in the electronics that you wouldn't strictly need for fast charging, which is DC and bypasses most internal electronics anyway.
- brianwawok 4y ago
  Oversized? There are very few EVs that can get 200 miles real range in the winter. Really need another 50% on top of that.
  - throwthroyaboat 4y ago
    I think this comes down to market economics more than product design. Many manufacturers have been production limited by cell supply for a long time. You _could_ make cars with extra large battery packs for those who live in exceptionally cold climates, but it's a limited market, and you'd be taking away cells from shorter range models. E.g. you're likely to make more money selling 5 cars with a 60kwh pack than 3 cars with a 100kwh pack.

e12e 4y ago

Few probably need this - but it could be at home on the autobahn - were you'd want to be able both drive at high speed, and change lanes/overtake other cars at high speed.

WirelessGigabit 4y ago

I read this a lot. Until you're in the USA and you're on an on-ramp that immediately merges. Then having < 5 seconds to 60 is nice for everybody's safety and comfort.

Grazester 4y ago
...just don't merge? Something tells me with such a window to merge in you are probably looking into to mirrors and not accurately estimating the distance of the car from you either. Also don't rely on this because the road condition is not going to guarantee you get up to the needed speed in time(cold tires or undesirable road surface conditions). You don't need a sub 5 second car to safely merge.
- throwthroyaboat 4y ago
  Eh, sometimes thats not an option if the an onramp doesn't create a new lane. I've lived and driven in California, Western Europe and New Zealand. Many (not all) California onramps come from tight cloverleafs or they are metered with stop lights, so you have to accelerate quickly to avoid going into the stopping lane (which will be covered in gravel, if it even exists). I never had this problem elsewhere.
- WirelessGigabit 4y ago
  I invite you to stop here: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.9773012,-110.5310232,3a,75y,300.8h,80.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sptIUAKo06WYnAbybbvsI9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@34.9773012,-110.5310232,3a,75y,... when there is traffic coming in behind you. Please don't say: "oh it's a quiet road", I took the first example I could find of this kind of onramp.
  - Grazester 4y ago
    Looks like you have plenty road to get up to speed there or slow down if you need to before merging but don't have a lot of area to merge. I drive in NYC. Some of our merge lanes are pretty short also...if you can't merge you stop and wait...yes you're supposed to yield and not stop but guess what, if you simply can't merge what are you going to do run into a vehicle?

forgotpwd16 4y ago

This model seems more sport oriented so the people targeted at are probably more concerned with speed, handling, etc than charging, range, etc. Price is universal concern though.

TheHappyOddish 4y ago

Same price as a model Y performance, 60% of the range, and they don't mention the full charging speed (although it appears to be similar, the model Y with the new batteries appears to be 15m 10-80%). Also, same 0-100 speed. The years tick on, people keep arguing that the traditional manufacturers are launching the Tesla killer "any day now", and they still can't beat the golden triange.