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As I’m sitting here reading this, it is -35 C after windchill. The reason we didn’t get an ev is because we are getting the sense that the companies that make t

As I’m sitting here reading this, it is -35 C after windchill. The reason we didn’t get an ev is because we are getting the sense that the companies that make them do not take Canadaian weather into account It looks like some of those manufacturers only lose 3% of their range in weather like this, but that’s estimated. The verified numbers are far lower?

cmrdporcupine 4y ago
Your car doesn't feel wind chill. I drive an EV in Canadian winter all the time. Not at all an issue. Range loss is a thing but it's not like the car stops working. In fact it starts more reliably and heats up more quickly for me. And I start mine remotely while it's still plugged in, so the cabin is warm and ready to go without wasting battery energy. And can do this safely in the garage without concerns of carbon monoxide poisoning or stinking up the garage. Aside: I wish people in this country would stop reporting wind chill temps as if they're some sort of accurate measure of anything. They're only useful as a relatively subjective measure for people who aren't dressed properly.
- wolfram74 4y ago
  Might be more accurate to describe it as cars generate more windchill from driving than the weather station is likely to experience from wind?
  - leereeves 4y ago
    Doesn't the cold have the greatest impact when the car isn't moving, because the car warms itself while driving? And the reported wind chill matters when the car isn't moving.
    - wolfram74 4y ago
      In the best case scenario where the car is in a garage, I've heard that you can pre-emptively bring it up to temperature on grid power and a great deal of the cold-induced range loss goes away. Might still work for outdoor parking, just a bit less shielded of an environment.
    - nkurz 4y ago
      > And the reported wind chill matters when the car isn't moving. It matters in the sense that a parked car in the wind will cool to ambient temperature faster than it would when the air is still, but not in the sense that it will ever get colder than the actual still-air temperature. Wind chill affects rate of cooling, but (in the absence of evaporation) not the actual low temperature that is reached. Since the concern with loss of range or or starting capacity usually has to do with how the batteries perform at at extremely low temperatures, it's probably closer to true to say that "it does not matter".
      - ghaff 4y ago
        Wind chill is mostly a number for TV weathermen to use to hype up cold weather. It does matter to some extent for people in that they may want to be careful to cover exposed skin and wear something windproof. But it's more about dressing for cold windy conditions than about an absolute number.
      - hunter2_ 4y ago
        > Since the concern with loss of range or or starting capacity usually has to do with how the batteries perform at at extremely low temperatures Isn't heating the cabin also a major component of the concern? That's where heating the cabin on grid power would help get some range back (assuming the battery is fully charged; if it's mid-charge then you're just shifting the grid power from charging to heating so the range will continue to suffer).
  - jcampbell1 4y ago
    Wind chill is because your body heat makes a bubble of warm air which the wind blows away. When you have a full body suit and helmet, wind chill doesn’t matter.
- dkqmduems 4y ago
  Air velocity certainly impacts heat transfer.
  - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
    Wind chill is a measure of the perception of winter temperatures on human skin. Certainly the car is affected by wind in cold temps. But that's something else that we would measure entirely differently.
    - dkqmduems 4y ago
      'Feeling cold' is measure of heat flux.
  - mikestew 4y ago
    …and therefore your argument is that the wind is somehow blowing on a battery that is enclosed, as are most EV traction batteries?
  - kube-system 4y ago
    The air velocity as measured relative to a parked car is not relevant to EV range. When the vehicle is moving the relative air velocity is far different than what it is when parked.
    - notdonspaulding 4y ago
      Doesn't the range of an EV drop as the heating load of the cabin of an EV increases? And doesn't the heating load of the cabin increase as the air velocity over all of its metal and glass surfaces increases? Isn't the shell of the car essentially a giant heatsink with a 70mph relative wind moving across it?
      - kube-system 4y ago
        Yes, yes, and yes. However the speed of air over the car while driving is unrelated to the airspeed that meteorologists use to calculate the wind chill in your local weather report
- RoboticCloud 4y ago
  It's always been a pet-peeve of mine. People from the Mid-west of America always use it for hyperbole. -10C is cold, I get it. You don't have to go all dramatic and tell me it's -40C windchill, you're not naked. (if you are, I'm fine with windchill)
- wpietri 4y ago
  > They're only useful as a relatively subjective measure for people who aren't dressed properly. Depends on your interpretation of "properly". Since 2001, the wind chill numbers for US, CA, and UK are based on a "bare face": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_chill#North_American_and_United_Kingdom_wind_chill_index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_chill#North_American_and_... Wanting to know how cold it's going to feel on one's face seems like a pretty reasonable need. At the very least, to know when to break out the balaclava.
- crazygringo 4y ago
  > They're only useful as a relatively subjective measure for people who aren't dressed properly. That's a bizarre thing to say when to dress properly, you need to know the wind chill. If it's 25°F out no wind, vs. 25°F out but it's 5°F with wind chill, that's an entire additional layer I need to put on during my morning walk. Wind chill is a very accurate measure for judging what to wear. How do you think it's not accurate? It's literally an equation that accounts for the fact that wind makes you colder. You can scientifically, objectively measure the faster cooling effect of wind on an object. (Granted there are marginal differences in its effect on a human body depending on one's height and weight, but that still doesn't make it subjective.)
  - Epa095 4y ago
    But if you only know the windchill temperature, how do you dress? If it is 10f with wind chill, do you prep for wind or not? I want to know temperature and windspeed, and then I know how many layers of wool I need (from the temperature) and how windproof I need to dress (from the windspeed).
    - hunter2_ 4y ago
      Interesting point: if we need to know two things, one of them being air temperature and the other being [windspeed or windchill], the second thing ought to be whichever delivers more overall value. If you can figure out how to dress based on either one equally well, then it comes down to what else can be gleaned from windspeed vs from windchill. I would tend to agree that windspeed is more valuable, as it's better at readily telling you if an activity you're planning to do, which is only possible under certain windspeeds (like using a tent or something), will be doable.
      - euroderf 4y ago
        Windchill addresses the user request "Don't make me think". Wind speed requires actual thought.
    - crazygringo 4y ago
Reason077 4y ago
Plenty of people drive EVs in the arctic far north of Norway (Troms & Finnmark). Not quite as cold as Canada, maybe, but close. Of course EVs will have less range in cold conditions, but they also have some advantages in the cold: pre-heating from an app so the car is warm when you set out, for example. They may be more reliable than petrol and diesel vehicles in extreme cold conditions, and no need for engine block heaters, etc.
- barbariangrunge 4y ago
  I was under the impression that cars died in the cold due to the battery dying. Are evs more reliable because they are likely to be plugged in over night?
  - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
    An EV battery is entirely different than a lead acid accessory battery in a combustion car. It has a whole system dedicated to maintaining its temperature within ideal ranges. They don't die in cold weather. I've never heard of one doing so. The only issue with cold weather is reduced range. So just make sure you buy one with a battery big enough to handle your commute even with reduced range in cold. Which is pretty much all of them these days, honestly.
    - jeffreyrogers 4y ago
      Phones and laptops get worse battery performance in cold weather and use similar batteries to EVs.
      - hunter2_ 4y ago
        Those don't have "a whole system dedicated to maintaining its temperature within ideal ranges" although now you've got me wondering whether a laptop that expends some energy to keep its battery warm would actually last longer in extreme cold than an otherwise-identical laptop that doesn't... of course one would need to also consider whether the keep-warm energy is drawn while plugged in (which would obviously let it last longer) or not (which I'm not sure about).
thatfrenchguy 4y ago
I don’t know, I’ve been to Quebec and there’s a ton of EVs there so I assume people manage?
fsh 4y ago
There is no such thing as windchill for a car.
- aaronax 4y ago
  Generally true, but could be relevant for calculating heat loss rates of cabin or battery. Only when parked I guess, as air velocity due to driving would typically be much greater.
ChrisClark 4y ago
In the summer, I can drive from Calgary to Edmonton without stopping to charge. I did one trip at -40 (without windchill) and I had to charge in Red Deer for about 30 minutes to make it.

cmrdporcupine 4y ago

Your car doesn't feel wind chill. I drive an EV in Canadian winter all the time. Not at all an issue. Range loss is a thing but it's not like the car stops working. In fact it starts more reliably and heats up more quickly for me. And I start mine remotely while it's still plugged in, so the cabin is warm and ready to go without wasting battery energy. And can do this safely in the garage without concerns of carbon monoxide poisoning or stinking up the garage. Aside: I wish people in this country would stop reporting wind chill temps as if they're some sort of accurate measure of anything. They're only useful as a relatively subjective measure for people who aren't dressed properly.

wolfram74 4y ago
Might be more accurate to describe it as cars generate more windchill from driving than the weather station is likely to experience from wind?
- leereeves 4y ago
  Doesn't the cold have the greatest impact when the car isn't moving, because the car warms itself while driving? And the reported wind chill matters when the car isn't moving.
  - wolfram74 4y ago
    In the best case scenario where the car is in a garage, I've heard that you can pre-emptively bring it up to temperature on grid power and a great deal of the cold-induced range loss goes away. Might still work for outdoor parking, just a bit less shielded of an environment.
  - nkurz 4y ago
    > And the reported wind chill matters when the car isn't moving. It matters in the sense that a parked car in the wind will cool to ambient temperature faster than it would when the air is still, but not in the sense that it will ever get colder than the actual still-air temperature. Wind chill affects rate of cooling, but (in the absence of evaporation) not the actual low temperature that is reached. Since the concern with loss of range or or starting capacity usually has to do with how the batteries perform at at extremely low temperatures, it's probably closer to true to say that "it does not matter".
    - ghaff 4y ago
      Wind chill is mostly a number for TV weathermen to use to hype up cold weather. It does matter to some extent for people in that they may want to be careful to cover exposed skin and wear something windproof. But it's more about dressing for cold windy conditions than about an absolute number.
    - hunter2_ 4y ago
      > Since the concern with loss of range or or starting capacity usually has to do with how the batteries perform at at extremely low temperatures Isn't heating the cabin also a major component of the concern? That's where heating the cabin on grid power would help get some range back (assuming the battery is fully charged; if it's mid-charge then you're just shifting the grid power from charging to heating so the range will continue to suffer).
- jcampbell1 4y ago
  Wind chill is because your body heat makes a bubble of warm air which the wind blows away. When you have a full body suit and helmet, wind chill doesn’t matter.
dkqmduems 4y ago
Air velocity certainly impacts heat transfer.
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  Wind chill is a measure of the perception of winter temperatures on human skin. Certainly the car is affected by wind in cold temps. But that's something else that we would measure entirely differently.
  - dkqmduems 4y ago
    'Feeling cold' is measure of heat flux.
- mikestew 4y ago
  …and therefore your argument is that the wind is somehow blowing on a battery that is enclosed, as are most EV traction batteries?
- kube-system 4y ago
  The air velocity as measured relative to a parked car is not relevant to EV range. When the vehicle is moving the relative air velocity is far different than what it is when parked.
  - notdonspaulding 4y ago
    Doesn't the range of an EV drop as the heating load of the cabin of an EV increases? And doesn't the heating load of the cabin increase as the air velocity over all of its metal and glass surfaces increases? Isn't the shell of the car essentially a giant heatsink with a 70mph relative wind moving across it?
    - kube-system 4y ago
      Yes, yes, and yes. However the speed of air over the car while driving is unrelated to the airspeed that meteorologists use to calculate the wind chill in your local weather report
RoboticCloud 4y ago
It's always been a pet-peeve of mine. People from the Mid-west of America always use it for hyperbole. -10C is cold, I get it. You don't have to go all dramatic and tell me it's -40C windchill, you're not naked. (if you are, I'm fine with windchill)
wpietri 4y ago
> They're only useful as a relatively subjective measure for people who aren't dressed properly. Depends on your interpretation of "properly". Since 2001, the wind chill numbers for US, CA, and UK are based on a "bare face": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_chill#North_American_and_United_Kingdom_wind_chill_index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_chill#North_American_and_... Wanting to know how cold it's going to feel on one's face seems like a pretty reasonable need. At the very least, to know when to break out the balaclava.
crazygringo 4y ago
> They're only useful as a relatively subjective measure for people who aren't dressed properly. That's a bizarre thing to say when to dress properly, you need to know the wind chill. If it's 25°F out no wind, vs. 25°F out but it's 5°F with wind chill, that's an entire additional layer I need to put on during my morning walk. Wind chill is a very accurate measure for judging what to wear. How do you think it's not accurate? It's literally an equation that accounts for the fact that wind makes you colder. You can scientifically, objectively measure the faster cooling effect of wind on an object. (Granted there are marginal differences in its effect on a human body depending on one's height and weight, but that still doesn't make it subjective.)
- Epa095 4y ago
  But if you only know the windchill temperature, how do you dress? If it is 10f with wind chill, do you prep for wind or not? I want to know temperature and windspeed, and then I know how many layers of wool I need (from the temperature) and how windproof I need to dress (from the windspeed).
  - hunter2_ 4y ago
    Interesting point: if we need to know two things, one of them being air temperature and the other being [windspeed or windchill], the second thing ought to be whichever delivers more overall value. If you can figure out how to dress based on either one equally well, then it comes down to what else can be gleaned from windspeed vs from windchill. I would tend to agree that windspeed is more valuable, as it's better at readily telling you if an activity you're planning to do, which is only possible under certain windspeeds (like using a tent or something), will be doable.
    - euroderf 4y ago
      Windchill addresses the user request "Don't make me think". Wind speed requires actual thought.
  - crazygringo 4y ago

Reason077 4y ago

Plenty of people drive EVs in the arctic far north of Norway (Troms & Finnmark). Not quite as cold as Canada, maybe, but close. Of course EVs will have less range in cold conditions, but they also have some advantages in the cold: pre-heating from an app so the car is warm when you set out, for example. They may be more reliable than petrol and diesel vehicles in extreme cold conditions, and no need for engine block heaters, etc.

barbariangrunge 4y ago
I was under the impression that cars died in the cold due to the battery dying. Are evs more reliable because they are likely to be plugged in over night?
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  An EV battery is entirely different than a lead acid accessory battery in a combustion car. It has a whole system dedicated to maintaining its temperature within ideal ranges. They don't die in cold weather. I've never heard of one doing so. The only issue with cold weather is reduced range. So just make sure you buy one with a battery big enough to handle your commute even with reduced range in cold. Which is pretty much all of them these days, honestly.
  - jeffreyrogers 4y ago
    Phones and laptops get worse battery performance in cold weather and use similar batteries to EVs.
    - hunter2_ 4y ago
      Those don't have "a whole system dedicated to maintaining its temperature within ideal ranges" although now you've got me wondering whether a laptop that expends some energy to keep its battery warm would actually last longer in extreme cold than an otherwise-identical laptop that doesn't... of course one would need to also consider whether the keep-warm energy is drawn while plugged in (which would obviously let it last longer) or not (which I'm not sure about).

thatfrenchguy 4y ago

I don’t know, I’ve been to Quebec and there’s a ton of EVs there so I assume people manage?

fsh 4y ago

There is no such thing as windchill for a car.

aaronax 4y ago
Generally true, but could be relevant for calculating heat loss rates of cabin or battery. Only when parked I guess, as air velocity due to driving would typically be much greater.

ChrisClark 4y ago

In the summer, I can drive from Calgary to Edmonton without stopping to charge. I did one trip at -40 (without windchill) and I had to charge in Red Deer for about 30 minutes to make it.