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There, the state is failing in their responsibility to prevent wage theft and people should be mad about that too!

ZeroGravitas 4y ago
I notice the 'violence' disappeared from this response. Vigilante justice only for the homeless, not people in nice suits? > the monopoly on “legitimate” violence held by the state comes with a very clear obligation to either use that monopoly or allow others to use violence
- nradov 4y ago
  Protecting one's own property is not vigilante justice.
- AbrahamParangi 4y ago
  It is unclear to me what vigilante justice against wage theft would look like, that wouldn’t be just like “shooting into a crowd”, hitting some number of bystanders who are blameless- but I encourage you to figure out what a moral form of it would look like!
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    It was your suggestion that people be allowed to use violence if the state didn't use it. Why do I need to think of moral ways for that violence to be applied?
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      The point was about recourse and prevention. It is clear how someone can plausibly use violence to actually protect themselves and their possessions when the law refuses to. It is a lot less clear what that looks like in terms of wage theft. Maybe threatening violence and demanding your back pay? Maybe stealing it? I do think there should be a burden to attempt to use the legal options if one is available.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Taking matters into your own hands in terms of wage theft might include demanding payment with the threat of violence, or forcibly taking what you are owed. I think both of these would be morally justified. The main difference between defending yourself and property and wage restitution is one is proactive to prevent the harm, and the other is retroactive. Given that the harm has already taken place in the case of wage theft, I think there is at least some duty to attempt to use the existing legal processes.
- epicureanideal 4y ago
  The people who are stealing wages are easy to find after the fact and their crime leaves a paper trail. If the homeless person leaves the area with the property you’ll likely never see them again.
iancmceachern 4y ago
California actually has more protective, robust wage protection laws and enforcement than most states.

I notice the 'violence' disappeared from this response. Vigilante justice only for the homeless, not people in nice suits? > the monopoly on “legitimate” violence held by the state comes with a very clear obligation to either use that monopoly or allow others to use violence

nradov 4y ago
Protecting one's own property is not vigilante justice.
AbrahamParangi 4y ago
It is unclear to me what vigilante justice against wage theft would look like, that wouldn’t be just like “shooting into a crowd”, hitting some number of bystanders who are blameless- but I encourage you to figure out what a moral form of it would look like!
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  It was your suggestion that people be allowed to use violence if the state didn't use it. Why do I need to think of moral ways for that violence to be applied?
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    The point was about recourse and prevention. It is clear how someone can plausibly use violence to actually protect themselves and their possessions when the law refuses to. It is a lot less clear what that looks like in terms of wage theft. Maybe threatening violence and demanding your back pay? Maybe stealing it? I do think there should be a burden to attempt to use the legal options if one is available.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Taking matters into your own hands in terms of wage theft might include demanding payment with the threat of violence, or forcibly taking what you are owed. I think both of these would be morally justified. The main difference between defending yourself and property and wage restitution is one is proactive to prevent the harm, and the other is retroactive. Given that the harm has already taken place in the case of wage theft, I think there is at least some duty to attempt to use the existing legal processes.
epicureanideal 4y ago
The people who are stealing wages are easy to find after the fact and their crime leaves a paper trail. If the homeless person leaves the area with the property you’ll likely never see them again.

iancmceachern 4y ago

California actually has more protective, robust wage protection laws and enforcement than most states.