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EVs upsides and downsides should be considered without it needing to be a comparison to ICE. But, yes, running the heater will use fuel. In this case EVs with

EVs upsides and downsides should be considered without it needing to be a comparison to ICE. But, yes, running the heater will use fuel. In this case EVs with "250 miles" range are losing 30%~ of that range for three months of the year and a further 20% over the first three years of their life, making them reliably closer to a 140-mile vehicle. People who are planning round-trip travel or commuting need to know this information, and unfortunately a lot of EV fans like to mock people for wanting high initial EV range as if winter and or capacity loss aren't real (even with the facts being readily available). The Bolt is currently the best budget EV by far, but people buying it should consider it a 150-mile range vehicle with "bonus" miles above that.

jmclnx 4y ago
> for three months Many places in the US, it is more than 3 months :)
- lazide 4y ago
  In northern Michigan, it was more like 3 months of not bad weather, hah.
pandaman 4y ago
> But, yes, running the heater will use fuel I imagine it is so on some air-cooled cars (VW "Beetle", old 911 etc), but on most cars the cabin is heated off the engine's cooling system and does not require additional fuel, so it technically will "use fuel" but no more than the normal operation of the car.
- organsnyder 4y ago
  OEM aircooled VW heat came from air heat exchangers that took extracted heat from the exhaust gas. Worked terribly when new, and even worse when rust hit: the channels carrying the air from the rear to the front of the vehicle were among the first parts of the body to rust out (at least in Beetles), and if any perforations developed in the heat exchangers you'd get CO going into the cabin. There were aftermarket gasoline heaters available, which is probably what you're thinking of.
karmelapple 4y ago
Is it mocking, or just encouraging realistic expectations around your travel needs? I’ve heard many people say an EV won’t work for them, yet their total daily commute is nowhere close to the capacity. And for many of them, even a 110V outlet at home would get them around 40 miles overnight once they’re home (depending on the make/model specifics), and most folks I know are barely driving more than that as a daily driver. I totally understand wanting to have long distance range in an EV. But even with the cold, for most commutes, anything with that 150-mile-in-winter is range for the majority of trips. But totally understood it’s a case by case basis. I have family who drove over 100 miles round trip for their daily commute in North Dakota. Those use cases exist, but I think many people without such extreme daily distances are thinking about their daily distance needs in unrealistic ways. I hope this isn’t what you’d consider mocking :)
- dahfizz 4y ago
  Cars are really expensive. Buying a whole ass car that can _only_ be used for commuting is a luxury most people cannot afford. They need their vehicle for thier daily commute, but also for weekend trips, home depot hauls, towing, etc etc. "Does this car only do 80% of what I need it to" is a valid question when so much money is on the line.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    My EV still works for weekend trips. I've been on several with it without any issues. I can still park at Home Depot with an EV, they don't crush them on site. Practically every Home Depot trip I've made was doable in any average vehicle. I see plenty of sedans and crossovers in the Home Depot parking lot. If it's something that's going to be a ton of stuff, I can rent their vans and trucks for $20. If I'm buying so much stuff I need an F-250, $20 isn't a significant part of that budget. I don't know why having an ICE is critical to go to Home Depot. Towing, really depends on what you're needing to tow. Pulling your boat from the nearby storage to the boat ramp? Probably fine with an EV. Pulling a fifth wheel around national parks? Towing horses around? Definitely not an EV job, for sure. But people aren't towing a fifth wheel with their Camry or their Rogue or their Equinox. The 99th percentile needs of most vehicles on our city highways could be accomplished with an EV without significant challenges, assuming decent charging is available.
neon_electro 4y ago
Please stop assuming that an EV battery is guaranteed to lose 20% of its range in the first three calendar years of operation. I drove a Chevy Bolt for 4 years, 48k miles, and I never noticed any range degradation, most likely thanks to the strong liquid cooling system for the battery and the inability to fast charge the Bolt faster than 1C (50-55kW fastest charging speed, 60-66kWh size battery means .75-88C) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_charger#C-rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_charger#C-rate) Some cars absolutely will degrade like you describe, but that is not a guaranteed outcome for every EV, given the differences in fast charging capabilities and battery cooling capabilities. I did not get my 238 miles EPA range on the Bolt in the winter, but I could easily get 200+ if I needed to squeeze out more range. I generally got closer to 150 miles not because I was forced to, but because my driving style and heating usage did not generally result in the highest efficiency.

jmclnx 4y ago

> for three months Many places in the US, it is more than 3 months :)

lazide 4y ago
In northern Michigan, it was more like 3 months of not bad weather, hah.

pandaman 4y ago

> But, yes, running the heater will use fuel I imagine it is so on some air-cooled cars (VW "Beetle", old 911 etc), but on most cars the cabin is heated off the engine's cooling system and does not require additional fuel, so it technically will "use fuel" but no more than the normal operation of the car.

organsnyder 4y ago
OEM aircooled VW heat came from air heat exchangers that took extracted heat from the exhaust gas. Worked terribly when new, and even worse when rust hit: the channels carrying the air from the rear to the front of the vehicle were among the first parts of the body to rust out (at least in Beetles), and if any perforations developed in the heat exchangers you'd get CO going into the cabin. There were aftermarket gasoline heaters available, which is probably what you're thinking of.

karmelapple 4y ago

Is it mocking, or just encouraging realistic expectations around your travel needs? I’ve heard many people say an EV won’t work for them, yet their total daily commute is nowhere close to the capacity. And for many of them, even a 110V outlet at home would get them around 40 miles overnight once they’re home (depending on the make/model specifics), and most folks I know are barely driving more than that as a daily driver. I totally understand wanting to have long distance range in an EV. But even with the cold, for most commutes, anything with that 150-mile-in-winter is range for the majority of trips. But totally understood it’s a case by case basis. I have family who drove over 100 miles round trip for their daily commute in North Dakota. Those use cases exist, but I think many people without such extreme daily distances are thinking about their daily distance needs in unrealistic ways. I hope this isn’t what you’d consider mocking :)

dahfizz 4y ago
Cars are really expensive. Buying a whole ass car that can _only_ be used for commuting is a luxury most people cannot afford. They need their vehicle for thier daily commute, but also for weekend trips, home depot hauls, towing, etc etc. "Does this car only do 80% of what I need it to" is a valid question when so much money is on the line.
- vel0city 4y ago
  My EV still works for weekend trips. I've been on several with it without any issues. I can still park at Home Depot with an EV, they don't crush them on site. Practically every Home Depot trip I've made was doable in any average vehicle. I see plenty of sedans and crossovers in the Home Depot parking lot. If it's something that's going to be a ton of stuff, I can rent their vans and trucks for $20. If I'm buying so much stuff I need an F-250, $20 isn't a significant part of that budget. I don't know why having an ICE is critical to go to Home Depot. Towing, really depends on what you're needing to tow. Pulling your boat from the nearby storage to the boat ramp? Probably fine with an EV. Pulling a fifth wheel around national parks? Towing horses around? Definitely not an EV job, for sure. But people aren't towing a fifth wheel with their Camry or their Rogue or their Equinox. The 99th percentile needs of most vehicles on our city highways could be accomplished with an EV without significant challenges, assuming decent charging is available.

neon_electro 4y ago

Please stop assuming that an EV battery is guaranteed to lose 20% of its range in the first three calendar years of operation. I drove a Chevy Bolt for 4 years, 48k miles, and I never noticed any range degradation, most likely thanks to the strong liquid cooling system for the battery and the inability to fast charge the Bolt faster than 1C (50-55kW fastest charging speed, 60-66kWh size battery means .75-88C) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_charger#C-rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_charger#C-rate) Some cars absolutely will degrade like you describe, but that is not a guaranteed outcome for every EV, given the differences in fast charging capabilities and battery cooling capabilities. I did not get my 238 miles EPA range on the Bolt in the winter, but I could easily get 200+ if I needed to squeeze out more range. I generally got closer to 150 miles not because I was forced to, but because my driving style and heating usage did not generally result in the highest efficiency.