5 ms·

> I wonder where this trend - fortunately a limited one - with putting confirm buttons at the top comes from Original small screen iPhone, where it's easier to

by 323 4y ago

> I wonder where this trend - fortunately a limited one - with putting confirm buttons at the top comes from Original small screen iPhone, where it's easier to reach the top than the bottom, and it's less likely to be an accidental touch. But now it's cargo-culted everywhere.

nine_k 4y ago
I wish Gnome did not try so hard to be macOS. If I wanted to use macOS, I'd get me a Mac. But I see that the other Unix machine most Gnome developers use is a Macbook, so they try to make things familiar, because they sort of like that UI. (Those who don't but still want a coherent desktop can pick KDE.)
- shrimp_emoji 4y ago
  It's not even macOS; it's iOS. It's a GUI for phablets and phones. Fortunately, I think more projects are abandoning GTK than onboarding it thanks to GTK's horrible documentation, instability, opinionatedness, and simply how much better Qt is to develop for[0], which I can only hope will gradually de-throne GNOME as "the default DE". 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTK#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTK#Criticism
  - nine_k 4y ago
    GTK is pure C, while Qt is C++. It's both a blessing, and a curse. E.g. I did not write, but just looked through the hoops PyQt has to jump to interface with Qt nicely. Quite impressive.
    - kitsunesoba 4y ago
      Qt being a pain to bind (and thus having few high quality bindings) is definitely a big reason why I’ve avoided it. I don’t really want to be writing UI in C++.
    - kaba0 4y ago
      In my opinion not using managed languages is a huge hindrance to these platforms.
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    Yep; as I’ve said before GNOME is what you’d get if you tried to clone iPadOS and turn it into desktop OS. It still feels more polished and accessible overall than alternatives though, and so it will probably continue to be “the default DE” for the foreseeable future. KDE has the most potential to replace it, but I think its configuration is still intimidating (to the point that you regularly see people ask which KDE distros have good defaults), as well as quirks you don’t see anywhere else, like turning file copy dialogs into notification toasts. It’s technically functional but comes off as weird. The other GTK DEs (XFCE and Cinnamon) I think are in a better place in terms of their settings panes not being scary and generally feeling well designed, but lack resources.
    - seba_dos1 4y ago
      > like turning file copy dialogs into notification toasts That's a great thing that I'm surprised other DEs don't do. Works really well for file downloads too. It makes intuitive sense and the fact that finished state is retained in notification history is such a helpful thing that genuinely improves user experience for someone with such a poor working memory as mine that it's really weird to see someone calling it weird.
      - kitsunesoba 4y ago
        I don’t mind seeing completions in my notifications and having the option to show progress in notifications is fine, but I also want the option for a boring old dialog, preferably with the ability to expand and show a high level of detail (think Windows file copy dialogs) that isn’t practical in a notification bubble.
        seba_dos1 4y ago
        > preferably with the ability to expand and show a high level of detail (think Windows file copy dialogs) that isn’t practical in a notification bubble. Why do you think it's not practical? That's what Plasma offers already and I'm using it often.
    - rhaway84773 4y ago
  - pantalaimon 4y ago
    Sometimes I wish Mate would have also forked GTK2. GTK3 is just heavier in general and going forward, GTK4 seems to be even more Gnome focused, so a fork might become inevitable anyway.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      From a developer standpoint, I actually really liked how composable GTK3 was. It's fair to complain about the stylesheets and the funky touch-centric interface, but it did still let you build GTK2-style apps. It was full of weird/nice features and felt like a decent iteration on GTK2. GTK4 has been a waking nightmare in comparison, and I'm not sure why they feel obligated to throw out so much of the previous toolkit.
  - otsaloma 4y ago
    As a developer of a couple GTK apps, I look at the deprecations in GTK4 and GTK5 with horror. At least one app I'm going to stop maintaining latest with GTK5. GIMP still doesn't have stable release out with GTK3. Inkscape took a long time. I bet both will have great trouble in the future. It seems we're moving towards GTK apps being either core GNOME (maintained as paid work by Red Hat) or trivial little apps like on mobile (either simple to port or just short-lived). Everything else will slowly die out.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - TingPing 4y ago
      As a developer of a couple GTK apps I really like the direction the project has gone in. Its a more flexible and performant toolkit than ever before.
    - nine_k 4y ago
      Gimp switching to FLTK or Elementary / Enlightenment would be a fun thing. (I suppose it will never pick up C++ in the code base, so not Qt.)
CharlesW 4y ago
> Original small screen iPhone, where it's easier to reach the top than the bottom… With phones, it's always been easier to reach the bottom. This is why tab bars have always been at the bottom. This is why soft keyboards have always been at the bottom. This is why Apple moved Safari's controls to the bottom by default.
- rhaway84773 4y ago
  The bottom of the phone is incredibly hard to reach in single handed operation while also holding the phone.
  - BenjiWiebe 4y ago
    How are you holding your phone? I'm typing this comment one-handed using a soft keyboard on the bottom of my phone. My thumb actually cannot reach the top of the screen without shifting the phone to a different grip.
    - layer8 4y ago
      GP is not saying that the top is easier to reach than the bottom. Reaching to the very bottom of the display one-handed is still straining, compared to the Home button iPhones.
  - cstrahan 4y ago
    I think most people (myself included) hold the phone with the bottom resting in their palm (and often further supported by their pinky/little finger). Do you hold your phone from the top, with the bottom ending unsupported and hanging out? And if so, why? Obvious downsides: if you loosen your grip then the phone will fall to the ground; you can’t reach the on screen keyboard.
- mook 4y ago
  > With phones, it's always been easier to reach the bottom. The _original_ iPhone is tiny by today's standards. It's 15% shorter than a current iPhone SE, with a relatively huge chin. At that point the top corner is where the thumb is when it's straight up. https://www.phonearena.com/phones/size/Apple-iPhone-SE-2022,Apple-iPhone/phones/11828,1886 https://www.phonearena.com/phones/size/Apple-iPhone-SE-2022,...

by 323 4y ago

nine_k 4y ago

I wish Gnome did not try so hard to be macOS. If I wanted to use macOS, I'd get me a Mac. But I see that the other Unix machine most Gnome developers use is a Macbook, so they try to make things familiar, because they sort of like that UI. (Those who don't but still want a coherent desktop can pick KDE.)

shrimp_emoji 4y ago
It's not even macOS; it's iOS. It's a GUI for phablets and phones. Fortunately, I think more projects are abandoning GTK than onboarding it thanks to GTK's horrible documentation, instability, opinionatedness, and simply how much better Qt is to develop for[0], which I can only hope will gradually de-throne GNOME as "the default DE". 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTK#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTK#Criticism
- nine_k 4y ago
  GTK is pure C, while Qt is C++. It's both a blessing, and a curse. E.g. I did not write, but just looked through the hoops PyQt has to jump to interface with Qt nicely. Quite impressive.
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    Qt being a pain to bind (and thus having few high quality bindings) is definitely a big reason why I’ve avoided it. I don’t really want to be writing UI in C++.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    In my opinion not using managed languages is a huge hindrance to these platforms.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  Yep; as I’ve said before GNOME is what you’d get if you tried to clone iPadOS and turn it into desktop OS. It still feels more polished and accessible overall than alternatives though, and so it will probably continue to be “the default DE” for the foreseeable future. KDE has the most potential to replace it, but I think its configuration is still intimidating (to the point that you regularly see people ask which KDE distros have good defaults), as well as quirks you don’t see anywhere else, like turning file copy dialogs into notification toasts. It’s technically functional but comes off as weird. The other GTK DEs (XFCE and Cinnamon) I think are in a better place in terms of their settings panes not being scary and generally feeling well designed, but lack resources.
  - seba_dos1 4y ago
    > like turning file copy dialogs into notification toasts That's a great thing that I'm surprised other DEs don't do. Works really well for file downloads too. It makes intuitive sense and the fact that finished state is retained in notification history is such a helpful thing that genuinely improves user experience for someone with such a poor working memory as mine that it's really weird to see someone calling it weird.
    - kitsunesoba 4y ago
      I don’t mind seeing completions in my notifications and having the option to show progress in notifications is fine, but I also want the option for a boring old dialog, preferably with the ability to expand and show a high level of detail (think Windows file copy dialogs) that isn’t practical in a notification bubble.
      - seba_dos1 4y ago
        > preferably with the ability to expand and show a high level of detail (think Windows file copy dialogs) that isn’t practical in a notification bubble. Why do you think it's not practical? That's what Plasma offers already and I'm using it often.
  - rhaway84773 4y ago
- pantalaimon 4y ago
  Sometimes I wish Mate would have also forked GTK2. GTK3 is just heavier in general and going forward, GTK4 seems to be even more Gnome focused, so a fork might become inevitable anyway.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    From a developer standpoint, I actually really liked how composable GTK3 was. It's fair to complain about the stylesheets and the funky touch-centric interface, but it did still let you build GTK2-style apps. It was full of weird/nice features and felt like a decent iteration on GTK2. GTK4 has been a waking nightmare in comparison, and I'm not sure why they feel obligated to throw out so much of the previous toolkit.
- otsaloma 4y ago
  As a developer of a couple GTK apps, I look at the deprecations in GTK4 and GTK5 with horror. At least one app I'm going to stop maintaining latest with GTK5. GIMP still doesn't have stable release out with GTK3. Inkscape took a long time. I bet both will have great trouble in the future. It seems we're moving towards GTK apps being either core GNOME (maintained as paid work by Red Hat) or trivial little apps like on mobile (either simple to port or just short-lived). Everything else will slowly die out.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - TingPing 4y ago
    As a developer of a couple GTK apps I really like the direction the project has gone in. Its a more flexible and performant toolkit than ever before.
  - nine_k 4y ago
    Gimp switching to FLTK or Elementary / Enlightenment would be a fun thing. (I suppose it will never pick up C++ in the code base, so not Qt.)

CharlesW 4y ago

> Original small screen iPhone, where it's easier to reach the top than the bottom… With phones, it's always been easier to reach the bottom. This is why tab bars have always been at the bottom. This is why soft keyboards have always been at the bottom. This is why Apple moved Safari's controls to the bottom by default.

rhaway84773 4y ago
The bottom of the phone is incredibly hard to reach in single handed operation while also holding the phone.
- BenjiWiebe 4y ago
  How are you holding your phone? I'm typing this comment one-handed using a soft keyboard on the bottom of my phone. My thumb actually cannot reach the top of the screen without shifting the phone to a different grip.
  - layer8 4y ago
    GP is not saying that the top is easier to reach than the bottom. Reaching to the very bottom of the display one-handed is still straining, compared to the Home button iPhones.
- cstrahan 4y ago
  I think most people (myself included) hold the phone with the bottom resting in their palm (and often further supported by their pinky/little finger). Do you hold your phone from the top, with the bottom ending unsupported and hanging out? And if so, why? Obvious downsides: if you loosen your grip then the phone will fall to the ground; you can’t reach the on screen keyboard.
mook 4y ago
> With phones, it's always been easier to reach the bottom. The _original_ iPhone is tiny by today's standards. It's 15% shorter than a current iPhone SE, with a relatively huge chin. At that point the top corner is where the thumb is when it's straight up. https://www.phonearena.com/phones/size/Apple-iPhone-SE-2022,Apple-iPhone/phones/11828,1886 https://www.phonearena.com/phones/size/Apple-iPhone-SE-2022,...