4 ms·

Orwellian does not just mean changing terms or using euphemisms. It is about terms that make the expression of undesirable thoughts actually impossible. Do any

Orwellian does not just mean changing terms or using euphemisms. It is about terms that make the expression of undesirable thoughts actually impossible. Do any of the scare-quoted terms do this? I can't see any.

the_gipsy 4y ago
Are you talking about Newspeak? What you describe does not sound like what I think "orwellian" usually means.
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  The term "Orwellian" in describing language comes directly from the properties of Newspeak. "Orwellian" can mean other things when describing state power or surveillance technology, but in this context it is being used to describe language so the connection to Newspeak is the relevant one.
  - nopenopenopeno 4y ago
    It's straightforwardly a broad term and you have no basis for your nonsense gatekeeping.
    - UncleMeat 4y ago
      It isn’t gatekeeping. “Orwellian” has a negative connotation. It is unreasonable to describe ordinary internal jargon as such.
      - nopenopenopeno 4y ago
        If you disagree, then make an actual argument for the content of your position. This subjective word policing is pathetic and unconvincing.
wyclif 4y ago
The problem for me was never that Twitter had their own in-house term for shadowbanning. It was that they obfuscated and hid behind the term in order to avoid accusations of shadowbanning. It's like saying "this is not a sub sandwich, it's a hoagie!"
- Marazan 4y ago
  There is a very well understood definition for shadowbanning - only the poster can see their own posts. What Twitter did was not shadowbanning - other people could see the posts. Pretending it is shadowbanning is bad faith arguing of the worst kind.
  - naasking 4y ago
    > There is a very well understood definition for shadowbanning - only the poster can see their own posts. Except that's not how most people understand the term. Terminology is defined by its usage, so if you're in the minority of how this term is used, you've lost. We already had this debate about hacker/cracker over 20 years ago. Hacker is still here, so get used to the broader meaning of shadowbanning.
    - Marazan 4y ago
      Let me google that for you: https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+shadowban&oq=define%3A+shadowban https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+shadowban&oq=defin... verb: shadowban - block (a user) from a social media site or online forum without their knowledge, typically by making their posts and comments no longer visible to other users.
      - naasking 4y ago
        Yes, which matches exactly what Twitter did, and which is how most people understand the term. Or did you miss the part where they delisted some accounts from being discoverable by search. The way Twitter defines shadowban is more narrow than that.
deadpannini 4y ago
No, "Orwellian" means almost the opposite: Winston and Julia are perfectly capable of thinking dissident thoughts, despite being immersed in Ingsoc. "Orwellian" refers to dominating people to the degree that you can force them to use the words you specify and make them say things that they know aren't true.
concordDance 4y ago
"Orwellian language" likely comes from this essay: https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_poli...
naasking 4y ago
> Orwellian does not just mean changing terms or using euphemisms. It is about terms that make the expression of undesirable thoughts actually impossible. Do any of the scare-quoted terms do this? I can't see any. Per [1]: "Orwellian" is an adjective describing a situation, idea, or societal condition that George Orwell identified as being destructive to the welfare of a free and open society. It denotes an attitude and a brutal policy of draconian control by propaganda, surveillance, disinformation, denial of truth (doublethink), and manipulation of the past [...] The label in this context doesn't seem unreasonable to me. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwellian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwellian
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  In the context of authoritarian states and surveillance technology that definition matches. But this is specifically about language and jargon. Even if we decide that my definition is nonsense, it is clear that using terms like "escalation" internally isn't "a brutal policy of draconian control by propaganda."
  - naasking 4y ago
    > Even if we decide that my definition is nonsense, it is clear that using terms like "escalation" internally isn't "a brutal policy of draconian control by propaganda." Sure, innocuous sounding words like "rendition" would never be reappropriated as code for something more sinister, right? Seems to me that innocuous sounding jargon actually makes Orwellian doublethink much easier to swallow. Like a frog in a slowly heated pot of water, you get exposed to and acclimatize to progressively more problematic uses of power until you simultaneously believe that you are a patriot upholding citizen's rights while routinely violating them. I'm not really sure why you think this process can't happen in a private company.
deadpannini 4y ago
Orwell, from "Politics and the English Language" [0]: > Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different. Statements like Marshal Petain was a true patriot, The Soviet press is the freest in the world, The Catholic Church is opposed to persecution, are almost always made with intent to deceive. [0] https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_poli...

the_gipsy 4y ago

Are you talking about Newspeak? What you describe does not sound like what I think "orwellian" usually means.

UncleMeat 4y ago
The term "Orwellian" in describing language comes directly from the properties of Newspeak. "Orwellian" can mean other things when describing state power or surveillance technology, but in this context it is being used to describe language so the connection to Newspeak is the relevant one.
- nopenopenopeno 4y ago
  It's straightforwardly a broad term and you have no basis for your nonsense gatekeeping.
  - UncleMeat 4y ago
    It isn’t gatekeeping. “Orwellian” has a negative connotation. It is unreasonable to describe ordinary internal jargon as such.
    - nopenopenopeno 4y ago
      If you disagree, then make an actual argument for the content of your position. This subjective word policing is pathetic and unconvincing.

wyclif 4y ago

The problem for me was never that Twitter had their own in-house term for shadowbanning. It was that they obfuscated and hid behind the term in order to avoid accusations of shadowbanning. It's like saying "this is not a sub sandwich, it's a hoagie!"

Marazan 4y ago
There is a very well understood definition for shadowbanning - only the poster can see their own posts. What Twitter did was not shadowbanning - other people could see the posts. Pretending it is shadowbanning is bad faith arguing of the worst kind.
- naasking 4y ago
  > There is a very well understood definition for shadowbanning - only the poster can see their own posts. Except that's not how most people understand the term. Terminology is defined by its usage, so if you're in the minority of how this term is used, you've lost. We already had this debate about hacker/cracker over 20 years ago. Hacker is still here, so get used to the broader meaning of shadowbanning.
  - Marazan 4y ago
    Let me google that for you: https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+shadowban&oq=define%3A+shadowban https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+shadowban&oq=defin... verb: shadowban - block (a user) from a social media site or online forum without their knowledge, typically by making their posts and comments no longer visible to other users.
    - naasking 4y ago
      Yes, which matches exactly what Twitter did, and which is how most people understand the term. Or did you miss the part where they delisted some accounts from being discoverable by search. The way Twitter defines shadowban is more narrow than that.

deadpannini 4y ago

No, "Orwellian" means almost the opposite: Winston and Julia are perfectly capable of thinking dissident thoughts, despite being immersed in Ingsoc. "Orwellian" refers to dominating people to the degree that you can force them to use the words you specify and make them say things that they know aren't true.

concordDance 4y ago

"Orwellian language" likely comes from this essay: https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_poli...

naasking 4y ago

> Orwellian does not just mean changing terms or using euphemisms. It is about terms that make the expression of undesirable thoughts actually impossible. Do any of the scare-quoted terms do this? I can't see any. Per [1]: "Orwellian" is an adjective describing a situation, idea, or societal condition that George Orwell identified as being destructive to the welfare of a free and open society. It denotes an attitude and a brutal policy of draconian control by propaganda, surveillance, disinformation, denial of truth (doublethink), and manipulation of the past [...] The label in this context doesn't seem unreasonable to me. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwellian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwellian

UncleMeat 4y ago
In the context of authoritarian states and surveillance technology that definition matches. But this is specifically about language and jargon. Even if we decide that my definition is nonsense, it is clear that using terms like "escalation" internally isn't "a brutal policy of draconian control by propaganda."
- naasking 4y ago
  > Even if we decide that my definition is nonsense, it is clear that using terms like "escalation" internally isn't "a brutal policy of draconian control by propaganda." Sure, innocuous sounding words like "rendition" would never be reappropriated as code for something more sinister, right? Seems to me that innocuous sounding jargon actually makes Orwellian doublethink much easier to swallow. Like a frog in a slowly heated pot of water, you get exposed to and acclimatize to progressively more problematic uses of power until you simultaneously believe that you are a patriot upholding citizen's rights while routinely violating them. I'm not really sure why you think this process can't happen in a private company.

deadpannini 4y ago

Orwell, from "Politics and the English Language" [0]: > Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different. Statements like Marshal Petain was a true patriot, The Soviet press is the freest in the world, The Catholic Church is opposed to persecution, are almost always made with intent to deceive. [0] https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_poli...