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> At that price-point, are there other devices on the market that already fulfill the need? No there aren't. Webcams in 2022 all have miniscule lenses/sensors

> At that price-point, are there other devices on the market that already fulfill the need? No there aren't. Webcams in 2022 all have miniscule lenses/sensors paired with decade-old tech and none of the big players seem interested in producing anything higher quality. https://reincubate.com/support/how-to/why-are-webcams-bad/ https://reincubate.com/support/how-to/why-are-webcams-bad/ If you want high-quality video capture, your options are pretty much just (1) plug in a "real" $$$$ DSLR/mirrorless camera which will be fiddly and prone to overheating, or (2) use a cell phone as an IP camera, which will add noticeable latency and is still a tiny sensor compensated for by AI. If this was for sale fully assembled I'd easily spend a few hundred on it. I don't care about networking, just give me plain old USB.

542458 4y ago
There is another option: You can buy relatively high quality PTZ cameras designed for low-end broadcast (HoW and legislative mostly). Some will output to USB, at the higher end you’ll need to capture SDI, NDI, or 2110. I have a coworker with this setup and it’s easily the best video quality I’ve ever seen on a teams call even in his fairly dark room.
- joshspankit 4y ago
  I’d ask you to find and share the model number they used, but I feel like it would be OOS by the time I remembered to look, then come back at 3-6X the price.
  - demuxxed 4y ago
    https://www.photo4less.com/product/bzgear-ptz-full-hd-1080p-10x-zoom-hdmi-sdi-usb-3-0-live-streaming-camera/ https://www.photo4less.com/product/bzgear-ptz-full-hd-1080p-... The “professional video” category has quite a few
    - spockz 4y ago
      The insta360 sells at about €300-350 including VAT. This is $1000 EX. Is the video quality that much better? Or is there some other feature that justifies the price?
      - 542458 4y ago
        A lot of PTZ cameras have fairly large sensors compared to webcams or phones, and unlike a phone or DSLR they’re designed to be operated continuously so they shouldn’t overheat.
      - jtbayly 4y ago
        > is there some other feature that justifies the price? Physical lens zoom on most of those, with decent lens sizes, but that's not that helpful for a Zoom call, unless you've got a very weird setup.
- coryrc 4y ago
  PTZ = pan tilt zoom SDI is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_digital_interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_digital_interface NDI and 2110 are video-over-IP standards. https://renewedvision.com/blog/guide-to-video-standards-sdi-hdmi-ndi-and-smpte-2110/ https://renewedvision.com/blog/guide-to-video-standards-sdi-... HoW I can't figure out.
  - zerocrates 4y ago
    I think in this context it's "house of worship."
  - phinnaeus 4y ago
    House of Worship maybe
    - dylan604 4y ago
      > low-end broadcast (HoW and legislative mostly) I like how the original comment was kind of slagging HoW and legislative to the lower realms of quality. For the most part, that's going to be true, but there's definitely edge cases. I run in weird circles having grown up in HoW production and moving into cinematic production. One of the megachurches in town is one of Sony's flagship install locations. They always have the top end equipment that even some production houses can't get yet. The amount of money that flows through these places is flabbergasting. Their control rooms are better equipped than some of the live sports trucks I've been in. The only thing they are missing is the crew of slo-mo operators. They have a couple of seats for shaders, they have chyron ops, they have technical director, director, multiple sound boards (one for record, one for stage, one for broadcast), and just an incredible amount of gear overall. Yes, this is said from a state of jelly.
      - 542458 4y ago
        Wasn’t try to slag HoW at all[*]! Just a lot of cheap broadcast PTZs are built with more price sensitive customers in mind, who often come from legislative, corporate or house of worship. You can absolutely find high-end sophisticated productions in all those fields, but the field also has much more of a low-end (both in terms of cost and in terms of production complexity) than you’ll normally find in most more traditional broadcast verticals. * I actual have a love for HoW as a vertical because they’re much more willing to try wild or experimental things with their production since they often have a greater tolerance for things going wrong and often have entire days of downtime between shows to tinker. This is probably part of why they’re a Sony flagship - willingness to run beta software! I know of at least one other vendor who has churches as beta testing sites…
- tjoff 4y ago
  A much much more expensive option? PTZ is really nice but for normal webcam use doesn't add much.
AceJohnny2 4y ago
Consumer webcams aren't the only class of device that you can plug into computers to capture images/videos.
bryanlarsen 4y ago
>> At that price-point, are there other devices on the market that already fulfill the need? > No there aren't. There are tons of cameras that meet this need. They're "machine vision" or "scientific" cameras, google for those. Edmund Scientific has a good selection. They're ridiculously expensive for what you get if you're comparing against a webcam or a surveillance camera since they're very similar to those for >10x the price. That's the price of low volume assembly, proper support, et cetera.
- mumumu 4y ago
  Astronomical cameras and microscope cameras are affordable. Some of them mm support sensors that uses them even supports Sony's proprietary protocol. A lot of sbc boards support MIPI CSI (iirc even RPI). Nvidia robotic modules has IO for Sony's LVDS (driver not provided though).
- IshKebab 4y ago
  That's also the price of selling to a market that can afford to spend gazillions on crap cameras.
opencl 4y ago
You can buy an IMX477 board with CSI output and a CSI->USB board, ~$100 combined. Not quite a fully assembled solution but all you have to do is screw the two boards together with a few standoffs.
- icelancer 4y ago
  I haven't had a lot of success in this regard. Do you have any links I could review to do this?
- icelancer 4y ago
  For example (I just emailed Arducam about this): The IMX477/R sensor supports Full (16:9) Binning 1080P @ 2028(H) × 1128(V) with 240hz/fps availability in a drive mode. However, no IMX477/R package I've ever found - including those from Arducam - support a CSI->USB board or similar that can drive this mode, only allowing 100 FPS maximum on most packages. (ex: https://www.uctronics.com/arducam-high-quality-complete-usb-camera-bundle-12mp-1/2.3-inch-imx477-camera-module-with-2.8-12mm-varifocal-lens-c20280m12-metal-enclosure-tripod-and-usb-cable.html https://www.uctronics.com/arducam-high-quality-complete-usb-...) I am looking to buy a product involving the IMX477/R sensor that can drive this mode or similar 240 FPS modes, but cannot find it for the life of me despite the datasheet openly supporting this drive mode.
  - fps-hero 4y ago
    Forget the USB boards, they all work to the best of the USB / UVC limitations but they aren’t great. You want to hook your camera sensor up to a processor with a CSI input. Image sensors are really just high speed ADC clocking out data, whether the data is useful or not is up to the viewer. What I’m getting at is forget FPS and think data rates. So, you need a processor that is that can handle that data rate. The napkin math says 2K@240FPS has the same data rate as 4K@60FPS. All you need is a processor or module that can handle it and you’re golden. There are demos of the RPI pushing 1000fps (at a significant lower resolution) but you get the point. Off the top of my head, NVIDIA jetson, imx8m mini plus, the latest allwinner V series, and a whole host of unobtainable in less than 10k qty parts all supported this. The rest is up to you. Also, RPi is out even with 4 lanes because the CSI input doesn’t support the speed required on each lane.
mdorazio 4y ago
Yeah, no, you don't need a DSLR. A point and shoot with a good sensor is more than enough. My Sony RX100 runs all day without issue and acts as a fantastic webcam via a cheap HDMI to USB adapter. Total cost used < $500.
- jjeaff 4y ago
  I use an entry level mirror less DSLR, the canon M50. And I think it was about $350 and it can connect directly via USB.
happyopossum 4y ago
> or (2) use a cell phone as an IP camera which will add noticeable latency You can use them directly via USB using Camo or OBS - no IP needed, and that changes the latency equation. Also, the new iOS continuity webcam feature is essentially zero latency - it's better than my good webcams.
maxgashkov 4y ago
If your need is video conferencing, relatively recent ‘insta360 link’ is _very_ good. I’ve ditched my mirrorless+HDMI setup in favor of it and haven’t seen any drop in quality. Companion app is pretty shit though, but they seem to be working on it.
deleted 4y ago
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Gordonjcp 4y ago
You could probably pick up those big old Cisco video conferencing cameras, which take 12V power, emit up to 1080p video over HDMI (which goes into whatever generic HDMI capture card you have) and are controlled over RS232 using Sony VISCA commands. The cameras themselves aren't especially "hackable" but then they don't need to be, because everything going in and out is extremely well-documented.

542458 4y ago

There is another option: You can buy relatively high quality PTZ cameras designed for low-end broadcast (HoW and legislative mostly). Some will output to USB, at the higher end you’ll need to capture SDI, NDI, or 2110. I have a coworker with this setup and it’s easily the best video quality I’ve ever seen on a teams call even in his fairly dark room.

joshspankit 4y ago
I’d ask you to find and share the model number they used, but I feel like it would be OOS by the time I remembered to look, then come back at 3-6X the price.
- demuxxed 4y ago
  https://www.photo4less.com/product/bzgear-ptz-full-hd-1080p-10x-zoom-hdmi-sdi-usb-3-0-live-streaming-camera/ https://www.photo4less.com/product/bzgear-ptz-full-hd-1080p-... The “professional video” category has quite a few
  - spockz 4y ago
    The insta360 sells at about €300-350 including VAT. This is $1000 EX. Is the video quality that much better? Or is there some other feature that justifies the price?
    - 542458 4y ago
      A lot of PTZ cameras have fairly large sensors compared to webcams or phones, and unlike a phone or DSLR they’re designed to be operated continuously so they shouldn’t overheat.
    - jtbayly 4y ago
      > is there some other feature that justifies the price? Physical lens zoom on most of those, with decent lens sizes, but that's not that helpful for a Zoom call, unless you've got a very weird setup.
coryrc 4y ago
PTZ = pan tilt zoom SDI is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_digital_interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_digital_interface NDI and 2110 are video-over-IP standards. https://renewedvision.com/blog/guide-to-video-standards-sdi-hdmi-ndi-and-smpte-2110/ https://renewedvision.com/blog/guide-to-video-standards-sdi-... HoW I can't figure out.
- zerocrates 4y ago
  I think in this context it's "house of worship."
- phinnaeus 4y ago
  House of Worship maybe
  - dylan604 4y ago
    > low-end broadcast (HoW and legislative mostly) I like how the original comment was kind of slagging HoW and legislative to the lower realms of quality. For the most part, that's going to be true, but there's definitely edge cases. I run in weird circles having grown up in HoW production and moving into cinematic production. One of the megachurches in town is one of Sony's flagship install locations. They always have the top end equipment that even some production houses can't get yet. The amount of money that flows through these places is flabbergasting. Their control rooms are better equipped than some of the live sports trucks I've been in. The only thing they are missing is the crew of slo-mo operators. They have a couple of seats for shaders, they have chyron ops, they have technical director, director, multiple sound boards (one for record, one for stage, one for broadcast), and just an incredible amount of gear overall. Yes, this is said from a state of jelly.
    - 542458 4y ago
      Wasn’t try to slag HoW at all[*]! Just a lot of cheap broadcast PTZs are built with more price sensitive customers in mind, who often come from legislative, corporate or house of worship. You can absolutely find high-end sophisticated productions in all those fields, but the field also has much more of a low-end (both in terms of cost and in terms of production complexity) than you’ll normally find in most more traditional broadcast verticals. * I actual have a love for HoW as a vertical because they’re much more willing to try wild or experimental things with their production since they often have a greater tolerance for things going wrong and often have entire days of downtime between shows to tinker. This is probably part of why they’re a Sony flagship - willingness to run beta software! I know of at least one other vendor who has churches as beta testing sites…
tjoff 4y ago
A much much more expensive option? PTZ is really nice but for normal webcam use doesn't add much.

AceJohnny2 4y ago

Consumer webcams aren't the only class of device that you can plug into computers to capture images/videos.

bryanlarsen 4y ago

>> At that price-point, are there other devices on the market that already fulfill the need? > No there aren't. There are tons of cameras that meet this need. They're "machine vision" or "scientific" cameras, google for those. Edmund Scientific has a good selection. They're ridiculously expensive for what you get if you're comparing against a webcam or a surveillance camera since they're very similar to those for >10x the price. That's the price of low volume assembly, proper support, et cetera.

mumumu 4y ago
Astronomical cameras and microscope cameras are affordable. Some of them mm support sensors that uses them even supports Sony's proprietary protocol. A lot of sbc boards support MIPI CSI (iirc even RPI). Nvidia robotic modules has IO for Sony's LVDS (driver not provided though).
IshKebab 4y ago
That's also the price of selling to a market that can afford to spend gazillions on crap cameras.

opencl 4y ago

You can buy an IMX477 board with CSI output and a CSI->USB board, ~$100 combined. Not quite a fully assembled solution but all you have to do is screw the two boards together with a few standoffs.

icelancer 4y ago
I haven't had a lot of success in this regard. Do you have any links I could review to do this?
icelancer 4y ago
For example (I just emailed Arducam about this): The IMX477/R sensor supports Full (16:9) Binning 1080P @ 2028(H) × 1128(V) with 240hz/fps availability in a drive mode. However, no IMX477/R package I've ever found - including those from Arducam - support a CSI->USB board or similar that can drive this mode, only allowing 100 FPS maximum on most packages. (ex: https://www.uctronics.com/arducam-high-quality-complete-usb-camera-bundle-12mp-1/2.3-inch-imx477-camera-module-with-2.8-12mm-varifocal-lens-c20280m12-metal-enclosure-tripod-and-usb-cable.html https://www.uctronics.com/arducam-high-quality-complete-usb-...) I am looking to buy a product involving the IMX477/R sensor that can drive this mode or similar 240 FPS modes, but cannot find it for the life of me despite the datasheet openly supporting this drive mode.
- fps-hero 4y ago
  Forget the USB boards, they all work to the best of the USB / UVC limitations but they aren’t great. You want to hook your camera sensor up to a processor with a CSI input. Image sensors are really just high speed ADC clocking out data, whether the data is useful or not is up to the viewer. What I’m getting at is forget FPS and think data rates. So, you need a processor that is that can handle that data rate. The napkin math says 2K@240FPS has the same data rate as 4K@60FPS. All you need is a processor or module that can handle it and you’re golden. There are demos of the RPI pushing 1000fps (at a significant lower resolution) but you get the point. Off the top of my head, NVIDIA jetson, imx8m mini plus, the latest allwinner V series, and a whole host of unobtainable in less than 10k qty parts all supported this. The rest is up to you. Also, RPi is out even with 4 lanes because the CSI input doesn’t support the speed required on each lane.

mdorazio 4y ago

Yeah, no, you don't need a DSLR. A point and shoot with a good sensor is more than enough. My Sony RX100 runs all day without issue and acts as a fantastic webcam via a cheap HDMI to USB adapter. Total cost used < $500.

jjeaff 4y ago
I use an entry level mirror less DSLR, the canon M50. And I think it was about $350 and it can connect directly via USB.

happyopossum 4y ago

> or (2) use a cell phone as an IP camera which will add noticeable latency You can use them directly via USB using Camo or OBS - no IP needed, and that changes the latency equation. Also, the new iOS continuity webcam feature is essentially zero latency - it's better than my good webcams.

maxgashkov 4y ago

If your need is video conferencing, relatively recent ‘insta360 link’ is _very_ good. I’ve ditched my mirrorless+HDMI setup in favor of it and haven’t seen any drop in quality. Companion app is pretty shit though, but they seem to be working on it.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Gordonjcp 4y ago

You could probably pick up those big old Cisco video conferencing cameras, which take 12V power, emit up to 1080p video over HDMI (which goes into whatever generic HDMI capture card you have) and are controlled over RS232 using Sony VISCA commands. The cameras themselves aren't especially "hackable" but then they don't need to be, because everything going in and out is extremely well-documented.