9 ms·

Suppose a small farmer went to Safeway and said, "Hey, I have 100 pounds of carrots every couple months. I want your cashiers to buy them from me at the retail

Suppose a small farmer went to Safeway and said, "Hey, I have 100 pounds of carrots every couple months. I want your cashiers to buy them from me at the retail price!" First, Safeway buys in very large lots from certified suppliers, who can commit to (almost) always having carrots. Second, those suppliers have to deliver at a loading dock, and maybe at a central location, too. Third, Safeway pays them wholesale prices, not retail. All of those analogies apply to selling power back to PG&E at retail prices. It's in small lots; it's undependable; it comes from many sources, not just a few; and it's priced wrongly. Yes, PG&E can be read as Pricks Grabbing Everything, but they're what we've got.

ekidd 4y ago
> "I want your cashiers to buy them from me at the retail price!" It's not anywhere near that simple. Electric power prices change dramatically throughout the day. For example, even retail prices may more than double during peak hours, if you have time-of-day billing. In some markets, peak demand is caused by day-time air conditioning during a few weeks in July or August. The extra generation capacity needed to cover that tiny window of time is idle the rest of the year. Those peak hours are very expensive, in real terms. In a market with small amounts of solar, that solar is helping offset some of the most expensive electricity of the year. And I've seen power companies push their major clients to install solar so that the power companies can avoid large investments in new power generation and transmission capacity. With net metering, power companies pay retail when wholesale electricity is most expensive. And they credit it back during the night, when wholesale power is cheaper. (The early evening window is trickier, and the hours of sunlight depend on latitude.) But once solar capacity is sufficient to offset air conditioning, the numbers for the power company get a lot worse. (Full disclosure: I signed a 10-year net metering contract which would barely break even in 12-15 years, in a market with little existing solar. The power company instituted separate grid fees a couple of years later, which substantially changed how the contract worked. And so my system will probably never pay for itself. Win some, lose some.)
- worik 4y ago
  > The power company instituted separate grid fees a couple of years later, which substantially changed how the contract worked. Is that legal? Sounds like you were defrauded
  - ekidd 4y ago
    As far as I know, the power company made the changes to their fees with the full approval of state regulators. They still provide net metering for the electricity that I buy, as per the contract. They just broke out a ~$35 monthly fee for grid maintenance, separate from what I pay for electricity.
  - silisili 4y ago
    Every place I've lived in the US, 7 places now, has had a power monopoly. Yes they defraud us, no there's nothing we can do about it.
    - landemva 4y ago
      If you own your land, you can install and run a generator. Likewise, you can also roll your own services for whatever else you desire to consume. Nobody forces electricty consumption.
      - chris222 4y ago
        This is false. Many places require a grid connection and most utilities have a fixed monthly fee as part of the bill.
        landemva 4y ago
        Please cite a code that requires a land owner to contract with the electric company. People enter electric contracts voluntarily, but maybe you can cite code from one of the municipalities in USA.
mrexroad 4y ago
But retail prices of carrots don’t increase dramatically from 4-9pm.
- UIUC_06 4y ago
  ... and that's relevant how? I suppose you hope it's relevant because, "the solar power comes just when they need it the most" ? They don't seem to do the math quite so happily, though. Maybe it's #1 and #2: First, Safeway buys in very large lots from certified suppliers, who can commit to (almost) always having carrots. Second, those suppliers have to deliver at a loading dock, and maybe at a central location, too.
  - mrexroad 4y ago
    I don’t think that was my hope. My comment, if anything, is that the dynamics of pg&e’s retail pricing make the comparison a bit of (pardon the pun) apples to carrots. Plus, there’s no analogy for energy, at scale, to refrigerated supply chains; hence need for TOU pricing to shape demand.
- awb 4y ago
  Most produce is seasonal. So your prices go up during the off season, and/or quality declines as they’re imported from farther away or picked before ripe.
  - mrexroad 4y ago
    Electric rates change seasonally as well, that part of the analogy holds. However time-of-use pricing is different.
    - awb 4y ago
      Do the rates change? I thought it was usage that changed seasonally.
      - mrexroad 4y ago
m463 4y ago
I think it would be better if PG&E charges were decreased as well. They currently charge .28-.51/kwh (yikes!) the wholesale price for electricity in california is 3-4c/kwh
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- pineaux 4y ago
  In Holland its 0.66€/KWh on average. So 0.69$/KWh with the current exchange rate. Think you got a pretty sweet deal there.
  - maxerickson 4y ago
    For the US it isn't great. My small town charges $16 for the connection and $0.10 a kWh. Less than $0.15 per kWh is pretty common.
  - mechanical_bear 4y ago
    I pay about a third of the rate and I am in an area that is so close to PGE that I could throw a rock and hit them. It’s terrible pricing, even for the area.
  - Gwypaas 4y ago
    Also before Putins energy war?
    - naasking 4y ago
      The real war is on Putin. The energy prices are on the Western world's response.
      - Gwypaas 4y ago
        Putin started tampering with the gas already during the summer of 2021. The effects of this were likely part of the calculus on the West's response to the war, which he severely misinterpreted given that we have decided to accept the current chaotic market conditions rather than give up Ukraine. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/24/russia-is-pumping-less-natural-gas-to-europe-as-nord-stream-2-nears-completion.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/24/russia-is-pumping-less-natur...
philsnow 4y ago
> It's in small lots; it's undependable; it comes from many sources, not just a few; and it's priced wrongly. My (very poor) understanding is that much of (all of?) power that gets sold back to the utilities goes through virtual power plant (VPP) programs like Tesla's or Swell's, where although there is a relationship between the owner of each solar installation and the utility, the VPP is the entity that sells the power to the utility.
- azinman2 4y ago
  Only if you have a battery participating. For my solar panels with no battery, excess just gets payed out to me.
  - philsnow 4y ago
    ... of course you're right, thank you. It's kind of right in the name VPP isn't it? not enough coffee this evening.
topher515 4y ago
But the goal here in setting these prices (from Society’s perspective) is not to maximize Safeway’s profits, but rather to incentive more people taking up carrot farming! Since we’re fairly confident we need lots of carrots to save the world!
- HDThoreaun 4y ago
  Pg&e is a regulated utility. They’re getting their profits either way, it would just come more from people who can’t afford solar.
  - lokar 4y ago
    More from commercial customers who can’t install enough to matter
- UIUC_06 4y ago
  I think you want PG&E to be a government-owned company. It's not, though. That's worth discussing, but right now it's a regulated monopoly, entitled by law to make a "reasonable" profit, AFAIK.
  - labcomputer 4y ago
    Given the amount that I've had to bail them out as a California taxpayer and as a ratepayer, it's absolutely criminal that they're not currently a government-owned company.
  - emodendroket 4y ago
    Well, these rates were "reasonable" enough before that they were apparently not violating some superlegal principle.
- rsj_hn 4y ago
  People are so quick to speak for "Society" because, in their minds, they think it trumps all other arguments. But very few -- if any -- actually know what society needs. I would say that what Society needs is to ensure a regular supply of carrots at stable prices. It's not to maximize small household carrot farming if it does not align with this goal. There is no particular reason why solar needs to be on individual rooftops where there is no storage, no ability to make long term commitments, and no mechanism to turn it into a reliable, dependable stream of energy. But sure, if the same households commit to maintaining their solar panels at an agreed upon capacity, and commit to purchasing enough storage to provide the agreed upon electricity despite the weather, and are able to sign long term contracts with significant financial penalties for failing to deliver the promised quantity of electricity, then yes they can be an electricity supplier to those utilities that need reliable energy suppliers in order to meet their own contractual commitments to energy users.
thayne 4y ago
Except it would be more like if instead of paying in cash, Safeway paid the farmer with vouchers that they could trade in for carrots. And in many cases charges a monthly fee in order for the vouchers to continue to work.
darkhelmet 4y ago
To extend the metaphor a little, the farmer would be bringing in carrots in a ready-to-sell condition and putting them directly in the Safeway stores on the retail shelves. That's a little different than forcing Safeway to pick them up at the wholesale distribution warehouse (at full retail price) and truck them around themselves and stack the stores themselves. In the PG&E case, the residential rooftop solar power is delivered directly into the retail last-mile networks just like the carrots on the Safeway shelves metaphor. However, the NEM2.0 model is still needed a tuneup. Last-mile networks still need maintenance. Suppose each neighborhood reached self sufficiency, somebody has to pay for the grid maintenance and run the whole thing. IMHO, buyback at a discount makes sense, but NEM3.0 seems like a Christmas gift to PG&E. They get ToU, capacity fees, wholesale rates, and minimum usage fees. They asked for the sky and got it all.
- benj111 4y ago
  To extend your extension. My local farmshop actually buys surplus homegrown fruit and veg (for vouchers) and sells them at cost.
- elif 4y ago
  Actually the way the grid works, in this analogy the farmer would deliver the carrots directly to the absolutely geographically ideal consumer's refrigerator. The only kinda grey lining here is the incentivization of house scale battery storage thru gutting all other routes to solar profitability... Sort of like saying that police speeding ticket quotas 'encourage' alternative transit like bicycles and trains just by adding misery to driving.
  - jerkstate 4y ago
    Maybe all of your neighbors with gardens have tons of carrots in September, so many that they leave bags of them on your doorstep to rot all late summer long. So when it's February and you've got nothing to eat, how do you get carrots?
    - darkhelmet 4y ago
robomartin 4y ago
> All of those analogies apply to selling power back to PG&E at retail prices. It's in small lots; it's undependable; it comes from many sources, not just a few; and it's priced wrongly. You must not be an electrical engineer. Do you think the power I generate from my solar array travels a hundred miles to some facility to then be sent back to the house next door? Not so. Multiple homes are connected to, and fed by, power distribution transformers. In other words, five to ten homes share the same output. Which means that excess power from one or more of those homes is fed directly to any home that needs it. My power goes directly into my neighbor's meter. The power company charges my neighbor the full rate for my power. They pay me almost nothing. Pure fucking profit. Of course, it would not be sensible to ask for the full rate. However, they should pay a good percentage of what they are charging for the power. Among other things, if anything breaks it is my responsibility to fix it. And, of course, I paid for the entire system. They sell my electricity at full rate with minimal costs.
- zo1 4y ago
  Maybe a silly question, but from those of us that aren't electrical engineers. Am I correct in assuming that excess generated power can't leave my local distribution network? So there are X houses in my circuit served by a dist transformer, and if we can produce more than those X houses need at that point in time, then the excess simply doesn't get "pulled" from the panels?
  - robomartin 4y ago
    It's a good question. Theory: Transformers are bidirectional. You can drive them from either side. For example, in testing one of the devices we manufacture we need 480 Volts AC. At each test rig we use a 480 V to 220 V transformer, drive it backwards and generate 480 VAC from 220 VAC. Distribution transformers have primaries in the tens of thousands of volts (say, 50 kV) and 220 VAC (for residential service) outputs. The topology could be different, however each home receives a two leg service with 120 VAC per leg. So, yes, you should be able to drive the low voltage side and end-up with high voltage on the other side. Let's say you have ten homes on the same transformer. Each home has solar. During a holiday, all homes are empty and nearly all of the power they generate drives the transformer backwards. The power would then drive other transformers and feed homes that need it. What I don't know is if they explicitly have devices to prevent backwards flow of power. I don't think they do. Not sure this would make any sense. I could see protection devices to prevent overload.
roenxi 4y ago
Suppose there was a small committee of Californians who mandated that Safeway pay retail price minus a regulated margin to the farmers, then wait until a large number of people started to make decisions around that policy, then did a sudden rug pull. But grandfathered in some people to the old scheme and left others to go figure themselves out, because fairness is a strange thing in the world of the bureaucrat. From the far sidelines this appears to be a stop in a long journey where the State of California tries to simulate market-efficient price of different forms of power generation solar the slow and hard way that doesn't involve using a market. All these schemes look even more foolish than usual now that solar is allegedly the cheapest form of power, so presumably a market would just throw things up at speed.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
colordrops 4y ago
They don't buy back at retail rates though.
bagels 4y ago
PG&E retail prices are 3x what they are not too far from here.
nathanvanfleet 4y ago
Kind of not an accurate description of solar panels or that we just have to live with PGE but whatever.
calculatte 4y ago
So a minor inconvenience is a good reason to eliminate a method to combat what our media calls "settled science" of a phenomenon that is an existential threat to humanity? Interesting.
- djmips 4y ago
  Who said humans always do the right thing? Who said California is going to always do the right thing? Science is never settled by definition but look, the evidence is there - go look - you don't have to rely on 'our media' - implied as corrupt. 100% know that you already have your mind made up.
conradev 4y ago
It’s also important to emphasize that this is still _net metering_ That is, if your solar production for the year equals your energy consumption for the year, you pay $0 in energy costs[1]. You are still offsetting retail electricity rates with your own, cheaper, fixed cost form of electricity. You just get paid the same[2] for your excess production as any solar farm. 1 – It was going to be nonzero with an interconnection fee, but that got dropped 2 – $0.08/kWh is also higher than utility-scale power purchase agreements in CA, which are closer to $0.03/kWh
- abc_lisper 4y ago
  That’s not what the linked article says. It says any exported energy will be valued at 10% of what it did before. When you send 10Kwh to grid, you get 1Kwh back. That is why, the breakeven period increased from 4 to 14 years on a new solar installation
djmips 4y ago
"cashiers to buy them from me" - now that doesn't make sense in your analogy. There is no equivalent of cashiers on the electricity side.
- UIUC_06 4y ago
  There is. It's the transformer you connect to. Their final point of presence before the product leaves the "store" and enters your possession.
  - djmips 4y ago
    Anthropomorphizing transformers are we. The analogy visualizes how inconvenient for cashiers to buy carrots but transformers don't care - it's easy and free.
pibechorro 4y ago
The answer is not to sell back to the grid. The answer is to make the grid irrelevant and get off it. Especially in Cali with all the sunshine they get.
- JoeAltmaier 4y ago
  I suspect rooftop solar for most folks isn't producing electricity when they need it, at least not enough to satisfy their peak demand. That leaves PG&E buying your excess at exactly the time of day they don't need it. And you continue to pull load at peak demand (like everybody else) so you need the grid connection. It's a lose all around for PG&E. This change recognizes that.
sitkack 4y ago
Your carrots are as fresh as your reasoning analogies.
- AuBon320 4y ago
chris222 4y ago
Does CA split up supply, transmission and distribution on their bills? New Hampshire does and our NEM 2.0 rules are quite fair. https://www.puc.nh.gov/sustainable%20energy/Group%20Net%20Metering/PUC-SE-NEM-Tariff-2020.pdf https://www.puc.nh.gov/sustainable%20energy/Group%20Net%20Me...

ekidd 4y ago

> "I want your cashiers to buy them from me at the retail price!" It's not anywhere near that simple. Electric power prices change dramatically throughout the day. For example, even retail prices may more than double during peak hours, if you have time-of-day billing. In some markets, peak demand is caused by day-time air conditioning during a few weeks in July or August. The extra generation capacity needed to cover that tiny window of time is idle the rest of the year. Those peak hours are very expensive, in real terms. In a market with small amounts of solar, that solar is helping offset some of the most expensive electricity of the year. And I've seen power companies push their major clients to install solar so that the power companies can avoid large investments in new power generation and transmission capacity. With net metering, power companies pay retail when wholesale electricity is most expensive. And they credit it back during the night, when wholesale power is cheaper. (The early evening window is trickier, and the hours of sunlight depend on latitude.) But once solar capacity is sufficient to offset air conditioning, the numbers for the power company get a lot worse. (Full disclosure: I signed a 10-year net metering contract which would barely break even in 12-15 years, in a market with little existing solar. The power company instituted separate grid fees a couple of years later, which substantially changed how the contract worked. And so my system will probably never pay for itself. Win some, lose some.)

worik 4y ago
> The power company instituted separate grid fees a couple of years later, which substantially changed how the contract worked. Is that legal? Sounds like you were defrauded
- ekidd 4y ago
  As far as I know, the power company made the changes to their fees with the full approval of state regulators. They still provide net metering for the electricity that I buy, as per the contract. They just broke out a ~$35 monthly fee for grid maintenance, separate from what I pay for electricity.
- silisili 4y ago
  Every place I've lived in the US, 7 places now, has had a power monopoly. Yes they defraud us, no there's nothing we can do about it.
  - landemva 4y ago
    If you own your land, you can install and run a generator. Likewise, you can also roll your own services for whatever else you desire to consume. Nobody forces electricty consumption.
    - chris222 4y ago
      This is false. Many places require a grid connection and most utilities have a fixed monthly fee as part of the bill.
      - landemva 4y ago
        Please cite a code that requires a land owner to contract with the electric company. People enter electric contracts voluntarily, but maybe you can cite code from one of the municipalities in USA.

mrexroad 4y ago

But retail prices of carrots don’t increase dramatically from 4-9pm.

UIUC_06 4y ago
... and that's relevant how? I suppose you hope it's relevant because, "the solar power comes just when they need it the most" ? They don't seem to do the math quite so happily, though. Maybe it's #1 and #2: First, Safeway buys in very large lots from certified suppliers, who can commit to (almost) always having carrots. Second, those suppliers have to deliver at a loading dock, and maybe at a central location, too.
- mrexroad 4y ago
  I don’t think that was my hope. My comment, if anything, is that the dynamics of pg&e’s retail pricing make the comparison a bit of (pardon the pun) apples to carrots. Plus, there’s no analogy for energy, at scale, to refrigerated supply chains; hence need for TOU pricing to shape demand.
awb 4y ago
Most produce is seasonal. So your prices go up during the off season, and/or quality declines as they’re imported from farther away or picked before ripe.
- mrexroad 4y ago
  Electric rates change seasonally as well, that part of the analogy holds. However time-of-use pricing is different.
  - awb 4y ago
    Do the rates change? I thought it was usage that changed seasonally.
    - mrexroad 4y ago

m463 4y ago

I think it would be better if PG&E charges were decreased as well. They currently charge .28-.51/kwh (yikes!) the wholesale price for electricity in california is 3-4c/kwh

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pineaux 4y ago
In Holland its 0.66€/KWh on average. So 0.69$/KWh with the current exchange rate. Think you got a pretty sweet deal there.
- maxerickson 4y ago
  For the US it isn't great. My small town charges $16 for the connection and $0.10 a kWh. Less than $0.15 per kWh is pretty common.
- mechanical_bear 4y ago
  I pay about a third of the rate and I am in an area that is so close to PGE that I could throw a rock and hit them. It’s terrible pricing, even for the area.
- Gwypaas 4y ago
  Also before Putins energy war?
  - naasking 4y ago
    The real war is on Putin. The energy prices are on the Western world's response.
    - Gwypaas 4y ago
      Putin started tampering with the gas already during the summer of 2021. The effects of this were likely part of the calculus on the West's response to the war, which he severely misinterpreted given that we have decided to accept the current chaotic market conditions rather than give up Ukraine. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/24/russia-is-pumping-less-natural-gas-to-europe-as-nord-stream-2-nears-completion.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/24/russia-is-pumping-less-natur...

philsnow 4y ago

> It's in small lots; it's undependable; it comes from many sources, not just a few; and it's priced wrongly. My (very poor) understanding is that much of (all of?) power that gets sold back to the utilities goes through virtual power plant (VPP) programs like Tesla's or Swell's, where although there is a relationship between the owner of each solar installation and the utility, the VPP is the entity that sells the power to the utility.

azinman2 4y ago
Only if you have a battery participating. For my solar panels with no battery, excess just gets payed out to me.
- philsnow 4y ago
  ... of course you're right, thank you. It's kind of right in the name VPP isn't it? not enough coffee this evening.

topher515 4y ago

But the goal here in setting these prices (from Society’s perspective) is not to maximize Safeway’s profits, but rather to incentive more people taking up carrot farming! Since we’re fairly confident we need lots of carrots to save the world!

HDThoreaun 4y ago
Pg&e is a regulated utility. They’re getting their profits either way, it would just come more from people who can’t afford solar.
- lokar 4y ago
  More from commercial customers who can’t install enough to matter
UIUC_06 4y ago
I think you want PG&E to be a government-owned company. It's not, though. That's worth discussing, but right now it's a regulated monopoly, entitled by law to make a "reasonable" profit, AFAIK.
- labcomputer 4y ago
  Given the amount that I've had to bail them out as a California taxpayer and as a ratepayer, it's absolutely criminal that they're not currently a government-owned company.
- emodendroket 4y ago
  Well, these rates were "reasonable" enough before that they were apparently not violating some superlegal principle.
rsj_hn 4y ago
People are so quick to speak for "Society" because, in their minds, they think it trumps all other arguments. But very few -- if any -- actually know what society needs. I would say that what Society needs is to ensure a regular supply of carrots at stable prices. It's not to maximize small household carrot farming if it does not align with this goal. There is no particular reason why solar needs to be on individual rooftops where there is no storage, no ability to make long term commitments, and no mechanism to turn it into a reliable, dependable stream of energy. But sure, if the same households commit to maintaining their solar panels at an agreed upon capacity, and commit to purchasing enough storage to provide the agreed upon electricity despite the weather, and are able to sign long term contracts with significant financial penalties for failing to deliver the promised quantity of electricity, then yes they can be an electricity supplier to those utilities that need reliable energy suppliers in order to meet their own contractual commitments to energy users.

thayne 4y ago

Except it would be more like if instead of paying in cash, Safeway paid the farmer with vouchers that they could trade in for carrots. And in many cases charges a monthly fee in order for the vouchers to continue to work.

darkhelmet 4y ago

To extend the metaphor a little, the farmer would be bringing in carrots in a ready-to-sell condition and putting them directly in the Safeway stores on the retail shelves. That's a little different than forcing Safeway to pick them up at the wholesale distribution warehouse (at full retail price) and truck them around themselves and stack the stores themselves. In the PG&E case, the residential rooftop solar power is delivered directly into the retail last-mile networks just like the carrots on the Safeway shelves metaphor. However, the NEM2.0 model is still needed a tuneup. Last-mile networks still need maintenance. Suppose each neighborhood reached self sufficiency, somebody has to pay for the grid maintenance and run the whole thing. IMHO, buyback at a discount makes sense, but NEM3.0 seems like a Christmas gift to PG&E. They get ToU, capacity fees, wholesale rates, and minimum usage fees. They asked for the sky and got it all.

benj111 4y ago
To extend your extension. My local farmshop actually buys surplus homegrown fruit and veg (for vouchers) and sells them at cost.
elif 4y ago
Actually the way the grid works, in this analogy the farmer would deliver the carrots directly to the absolutely geographically ideal consumer's refrigerator. The only kinda grey lining here is the incentivization of house scale battery storage thru gutting all other routes to solar profitability... Sort of like saying that police speeding ticket quotas 'encourage' alternative transit like bicycles and trains just by adding misery to driving.
- jerkstate 4y ago
  Maybe all of your neighbors with gardens have tons of carrots in September, so many that they leave bags of them on your doorstep to rot all late summer long. So when it's February and you've got nothing to eat, how do you get carrots?
  - darkhelmet 4y ago

robomartin 4y ago

> All of those analogies apply to selling power back to PG&E at retail prices. It's in small lots; it's undependable; it comes from many sources, not just a few; and it's priced wrongly. You must not be an electrical engineer. Do you think the power I generate from my solar array travels a hundred miles to some facility to then be sent back to the house next door? Not so. Multiple homes are connected to, and fed by, power distribution transformers. In other words, five to ten homes share the same output. Which means that excess power from one or more of those homes is fed directly to any home that needs it. My power goes directly into my neighbor's meter. The power company charges my neighbor the full rate for my power. They pay me almost nothing. Pure fucking profit. Of course, it would not be sensible to ask for the full rate. However, they should pay a good percentage of what they are charging for the power. Among other things, if anything breaks it is my responsibility to fix it. And, of course, I paid for the entire system. They sell my electricity at full rate with minimal costs.

zo1 4y ago
Maybe a silly question, but from those of us that aren't electrical engineers. Am I correct in assuming that excess generated power can't leave my local distribution network? So there are X houses in my circuit served by a dist transformer, and if we can produce more than those X houses need at that point in time, then the excess simply doesn't get "pulled" from the panels?
- robomartin 4y ago
  It's a good question. Theory: Transformers are bidirectional. You can drive them from either side. For example, in testing one of the devices we manufacture we need 480 Volts AC. At each test rig we use a 480 V to 220 V transformer, drive it backwards and generate 480 VAC from 220 VAC. Distribution transformers have primaries in the tens of thousands of volts (say, 50 kV) and 220 VAC (for residential service) outputs. The topology could be different, however each home receives a two leg service with 120 VAC per leg. So, yes, you should be able to drive the low voltage side and end-up with high voltage on the other side. Let's say you have ten homes on the same transformer. Each home has solar. During a holiday, all homes are empty and nearly all of the power they generate drives the transformer backwards. The power would then drive other transformers and feed homes that need it. What I don't know is if they explicitly have devices to prevent backwards flow of power. I don't think they do. Not sure this would make any sense. I could see protection devices to prevent overload.

roenxi 4y ago

Suppose there was a small committee of Californians who mandated that Safeway pay retail price minus a regulated margin to the farmers, then wait until a large number of people started to make decisions around that policy, then did a sudden rug pull. But grandfathered in some people to the old scheme and left others to go figure themselves out, because fairness is a strange thing in the world of the bureaucrat. From the far sidelines this appears to be a stop in a long journey where the State of California tries to simulate market-efficient price of different forms of power generation solar the slow and hard way that doesn't involve using a market. All these schemes look even more foolish than usual now that solar is allegedly the cheapest form of power, so presumably a market would just throw things up at speed.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

colordrops 4y ago

They don't buy back at retail rates though.

bagels 4y ago

PG&E retail prices are 3x what they are not too far from here.

nathanvanfleet 4y ago

Kind of not an accurate description of solar panels or that we just have to live with PGE but whatever.

calculatte 4y ago

So a minor inconvenience is a good reason to eliminate a method to combat what our media calls "settled science" of a phenomenon that is an existential threat to humanity? Interesting.

djmips 4y ago
Who said humans always do the right thing? Who said California is going to always do the right thing? Science is never settled by definition but look, the evidence is there - go look - you don't have to rely on 'our media' - implied as corrupt. 100% know that you already have your mind made up.

conradev 4y ago

It’s also important to emphasize that this is still _net metering_ That is, if your solar production for the year equals your energy consumption for the year, you pay $0 in energy costs[1]. You are still offsetting retail electricity rates with your own, cheaper, fixed cost form of electricity. You just get paid the same[2] for your excess production as any solar farm. 1 – It was going to be nonzero with an interconnection fee, but that got dropped 2 – $0.08/kWh is also higher than utility-scale power purchase agreements in CA, which are closer to $0.03/kWh

abc_lisper 4y ago
That’s not what the linked article says. It says any exported energy will be valued at 10% of what it did before. When you send 10Kwh to grid, you get 1Kwh back. That is why, the breakeven period increased from 4 to 14 years on a new solar installation

djmips 4y ago

"cashiers to buy them from me" - now that doesn't make sense in your analogy. There is no equivalent of cashiers on the electricity side.

UIUC_06 4y ago
There is. It's the transformer you connect to. Their final point of presence before the product leaves the "store" and enters your possession.
- djmips 4y ago
  Anthropomorphizing transformers are we. The analogy visualizes how inconvenient for cashiers to buy carrots but transformers don't care - it's easy and free.

pibechorro 4y ago

The answer is not to sell back to the grid. The answer is to make the grid irrelevant and get off it. Especially in Cali with all the sunshine they get.

JoeAltmaier 4y ago
I suspect rooftop solar for most folks isn't producing electricity when they need it, at least not enough to satisfy their peak demand. That leaves PG&E buying your excess at exactly the time of day they don't need it. And you continue to pull load at peak demand (like everybody else) so you need the grid connection. It's a lose all around for PG&E. This change recognizes that.

sitkack 4y ago

Your carrots are as fresh as your reasoning analogies.

AuBon320 4y ago

chris222 4y ago

Does CA split up supply, transmission and distribution on their bills? New Hampshire does and our NEM 2.0 rules are quite fair. https://www.puc.nh.gov/sustainable%20energy/Group%20Net%20Metering/PUC-SE-NEM-Tariff-2020.pdf https://www.puc.nh.gov/sustainable%20energy/Group%20Net%20Me...