8 ms·

I'd rather be sick for 2 weeks than wear a mask every day. Surveying those around me I'd say 98% came to the same conclusion.

by dxhdr 4y ago

Diederich 4y ago
Being sick two weeks is a very clear cost. Less clear are the long-term costs associated with long-covid. How would you characterize the costs associated with wearing a mask most of the time when in public?
- dxhdr 4y ago
  > How would you characterize the costs associated with wearing a mask most of the time when in public? I tried it for a year and it's dehumanizing. Not sure how you'd rate that vs the unknown chance of long covid but I've made my choice.
  - spookthesunset 4y ago
    It’s sad you get downvoted. Mask wearing is incredibly dehumanizing in my opinion. It is a symbol of fear and control. It never ever should never have been mandated, only recommended.
    - throwaway290 4y ago
      Think about it. It's only a symbol of control and dehumanizing if you don't want to do it. Is waiting at a red light or wearing clothes in public dehumanizing or a symbol of control? If not then what makes masks different? And you don't want to do it because you can't see every X person who caught the virus dropping dead in front of you, since all negative consequences happen out of sight and come back at you with statistics months later you simply can't bring yourself to care, that's all.
      - aakresearch 4y ago
        Of course I don't want it. Why would I? It is like demands for intercourse from random strangers, claiming you're immoral for not caring about "benefits" for THEM. Mask IS dehumanizing, and IS a symbol of control, just like any forced sexual activity. Why breathing and face are suddenly considered less sacred than nether zone? "What makes it different", from masks, or pants, or waiting the red light? If consensual sex between lovers is a wonderful and most natural experience ever, with all soothing and healing aspects, why it is not appropriate to make it mandatory under some circumstances? Even more, why breaching sexual consent even in minor way is considered worse-than-murder in some cultures? Wearing mask is as revolting as sex against one's natural "orientation". If someone thinks this is unreasonable and one should "get help" to "fix" it, I remind them that they may be fighting against strongly held "identity" belief. "Conversion therapy" is being declared evil, for some valid reasons. And I won't even say how I feel about forced, mandatory mask wearing.
    - Diederich 4y ago
      > It is a symbol of fear and control. Perhaps to some. That feeling is probably largely driven by one's overall outlook. We started masking before any of the mandates because it just made sense to do so, to us at least. > It never ever should never have been mandated, only recommended. That's a hard question in my opinion. I naturally tend toward letting people do what they want unless they're clearly hurting others. Others have argued that masking does unambiguously reduce harm to others, but I don't find it so clear cut. I'm personally less uncomfortable with mask mandates than the widespread shutdowns. Those shutdowns caused massive harm to people. Masking? Not so much. Note I'm not quite willing, even now, to fully support mask mandates, now or previously. I see both sides of the issue. > It’s sad you get downvoted. Agreed, it is sad that opposing, perhaps uncomfortable viewpoints get pushed down.
    - ipaddr 4y ago
      Mask wearing is wonderful and freeing. More privacy in public is a great side effect.
      - throwaway290 4y ago
        Yes, once you get used to it it's dehumanizing having to take it off. 100% it's someone wants to ID you for the camera.
    - jeffbee 4y ago
      Are pants and shirts also symbols of fear and control?
      - timr 4y ago
        If you're forced to wear them on your face, yes. Covering your face, as a primate, is not a natural thing to do. Our brains have huge areas dedicated to recognition of subtle differences in facial features. We're literally wired for facial recognition. More than almost any other feature of our bodies, our faces define us as individuals. Assuming that obscuring the face has zero cost is clearly wrong. I honestly can't believe I have to say this out loud.
        throwaway290 4y ago
        You still need to clarify how having to wear pants and shirts is not an instance of control over you. Because it is, and you only don't mind that control because you agree that you should do it. Use the same principle here. Btw idk about others but I wear a mask indoors with strangers, like in public transport or shops. I get to see all the faces I want to see and show mine outdoors or when video calling or if they are close friends or cohabitants. Wearing a mask in public has only one cost for healthy people: a dirty mask can make you sick so you must have a clean mask, and that costs either money or time spent washing (and chance of washing it wrong)
        ABCLAW 4y ago
        >Covering your face, as a primate, is not a natural thing to do. 1) Neither is wearing pants or a shirt. 2) Something being 'natural' doesn't make it right. >Assuming that obscuring the face has zero cost is clearly wrong. It doesn't need to have zero cost in order to be the correct thing to do. The question is whether or not the trade-off is worthwhile. Let's saying masking always under all conditions is too much of an imposition, are there restrictions we can place that make the trade-off better? For instance: Is masking in high density communal areas during respiratory disease seasons with an X drop in disease propagation worth not seeing people's faces in that setting for that time period. To extrapolate this back to the pants/shirt distinction; human life would end in a generation if we weren't ever able to take off our pants and shirt as we would never have sex again, but the intolerability of that restriction doesn't make it socially accepted for me to rub my bare ass onto a bus seat. We can't have a discussion about how best to adopt masks, pants, or shirts as a technology if the only way they'll be accepted is if they're always a pure benefit in any situation.
    - eloff 4y ago
      Medical masks are not a symbol of anything. They’re a legitimate way to lower the risk of spreading germs from your own mouth and nose. They’re also marginally useful at keeping germs out. The fact that they got politicized in the USA is more a symbol of the problems with the USA than anything else.
    - dfxm12 4y ago
      It is a symbol of fear and control. Why do you think this? I see someone wearing a mask and I see someone with enough respect for their fellow man that they don't want to get them sick. That's not fear or control, that's compassion. I don't think compassion is uniquely human, but it still is humanizing.
    - diag 4y ago
      How is it a symbol of fear? Masks for infection control have been used since the late 1800s. It's purely practical. Maybe a little fear would be healthy for some people if it makes them act in a socially integrated manner. Anybody who's had covid probably doesn't want to get it again.
    - fullmoon 4y ago
      Culturally? That would be interesting to think through. I can be sold on the idea that covering one face (by any means) removes a lot of communication and social clues that are inherently human. But control?
    - D13Fd 4y ago
      How do you feel about having to wear a seatbelt?
  - Diederich 4y ago
    I suppose it's a matter of perspective. My wife, son and I have been masking with 100% consistency since April 2020 (in indoor/crowded outdoor places) and we haven't felt 'dehumanized' to the slightest degree. It's not quite free; the bridge of my nose sometimes experiences some irritation, and we've had to deal with more than a hand full of hateful/snarky in person comments, but that's no biggie.
    - rajup 4y ago
      Great and if it makes you comfortable by all means keep masking. Just keep folks who do find it annoying and dehumanizing out of it. Thanks.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - blockwriter 4y ago
      Does your son do it freely of his own accord, or only at the behest of one or both of his parents? I would check in with him in ten years as to how sanguine he feels about a rather uncommon rite of hygiene being imposed, or simply encouraged, during his childhood or adolescence for 2+ years.
  - tshaddox 4y ago
    Why do you describe it as dehumanizing? Would you also describe mask-wearing among dentists, surgeons, painters, etc. as dehumanizing?
    - rayiner 4y ago
      It’s literally dehumanizing. Humans rely on being able to see each other’s faces for a wide range of non-verbal communications reasons. Learning to recognize faces and facial expressions is one of the first skills baby humans learn how to do. Being from the south, we smile when we pass each other on the street. You can’t do that in a mask. Maybe you folks from NYC and SF don’t miss that—after all you can still glare at people with hostility wearing a mask—but it’s a major loss in quality of life for the rest of us. Professionals wearing masks in specific contexts is different than advocating for ordinary people to wear masks in public settings.
    - Rebelgecko 4y ago
      Dehumanized by strangers isn't necessarily a bad thing. I've talked to multiple women who prefer to wear masks on public transit because they're less likely to get catcalled or harassed
  - tonetheman 4y ago
    Yes make sure to tell your doctor you think wearing a mask is before they work on you or you mother or your child. Tell them you think masks are dehuminizing. Or just skip to what you really mean, tell your doctor who is going to operate on your or your child that you do not think they work. Moron.
    - dang 4y ago
      You can't attack others like that here, regardless of how wrong they are or you feel they are. Since you've mostly been posting flamewar comments and ideological battle comments (all of which is against HN's guidelines), I've banned this account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
  - asiachick 4y ago
    > dehumanizing So you effectively just insulted like 1.5 billion asians who've been wearing masks for years? I'd call it humanizing. I care for others so I put on the mask.
- ajkjk 4y ago
  Not generally opposed to masking, but the answer is "up to the individual" and "clearly indicated by their choices".
- kjksf 4y ago
  Being killed by a falling brick is a very clear cost. How would you characterize the costs associated with wearing a hard hat most of the time when in public? Talking about cost without normalizing for probability of prevention is meaningless yet you want to frame the discussion to be purely about (low) cost of wearing masks. We had a year of a pretty tough lockdown, most people wearing masks, distancing in grocery shops, restaurants and "non-essential" shops and companies closed, no public events, work from home, most people staying at home etc. And yet people were getting sick with covid, even those wearing masks. Masks alone won't protect you from covid. Even pretty hard core isolation might not protect you. We basically have no idea how effective just wearing masks is. It surely reduces the probability but by how much? Feel free to wear masks and hard hats but don't pretend you know for sure it's a rational choice.
  - gjsman-1000 4y ago
    Also, imagine if said hard hat caused unknown long-term effects by itself. We know, for a fact, that some plastic fibers from masks end up in the lungs permanently. What happens when they go there? Nobody knows. How many of them are there in the average person? Nobody knows. What are the long term effects? Nobody knows. How does it affect lung development in both short-term and long-term, particularly in young people? Nobody knows. We just hope it's fine.
    - Diederich 4y ago
      How would you compare these cited risks associated with mask wear with the risks associated with more likely C19 infections, and perhaps more important with the emergent recognition of risks associated with long covid? My wife works with long covid people most of the day every day. Included are young, healthy, active, fully vaccinated people who can hardly walk up a flight of stairs...six months after a very mild C19 infection. Or senior technical members of silicon valley companies you've heard of that are so brain fogged that they are incapable of doing anything like the work they did previously. Yes, the prior paragraph is anecdotal, strong as it may be. Fortunately scientific studies are starting to gain some understanding of long covid. Compare all this to the risks associated with wearing masks. There have been cohorts of people wearing masks all day every day for many decades now. Has there been any evidence of the effects you outlined?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
listless 4y ago
Same. And I’m just getting over the flu, which was rough. A world where we constantly mask to avoid any illness at all holds 0 interest for me. I’ll take the COVID.
potatochup 4y ago
It doesn't have to be that dichotomous though. I don't wear a mask at work (which is well ventilated and people are pretty responsible about staying home when sick) but I do in higher risk situations (E.g. a plane flight)
TaylorAlexander 4y ago
There’s a lot of people in my life that don’t want to get sick. And I don’t want to have to cancel plans with them every time I feel a little fatigue, because 99% of the time that’s just due to weird sleep. But if I wasn’t masked I would be constantly wondering if I was getting sick and if I should cancel plans. My parents are elderly, my partners partner is vulnerable. There’s a lot of people in my life that can’t afford to get sick because they would infect their entire household. I guess it’s fine if no one you hang out with cares, but that’s not the case for me. I should also note that I don’t work with other people. I might feel differently if I had to mask at work all the time. I do keep a mask for the 2% of the time at work I interact with others. But the biggest thing is grocery stores. Not masking there you’re just asking to elevate community transmission. You’re increasing the risks for others. I’d love it if the virus was gone, but it just isn’t.
FullStackAda 4y ago
Especially considering I can mask all the way in all public spaces, my kid will bring all the viruses from public schools all the same.
meroes 4y ago
Good for you for having the choice. I can't make the choice for my immunocompromised roommate.

I'd rather be sick for 2 weeks than wear a mask every day. Surveying those around me I'd say 98% came to the same conclusion.

by dxhdr 4y ago

I'd rather be sick for 2 weeks than wear a mask every day. Surveying those around me I'd say 98% came to the same conclusion.

Diederich 4y ago

Being sick two weeks is a very clear cost. Less clear are the long-term costs associated with long-covid. How would you characterize the costs associated with wearing a mask most of the time when in public?

dxhdr 4y ago
> How would you characterize the costs associated with wearing a mask most of the time when in public? I tried it for a year and it's dehumanizing. Not sure how you'd rate that vs the unknown chance of long covid but I've made my choice.
- spookthesunset 4y ago
  It’s sad you get downvoted. Mask wearing is incredibly dehumanizing in my opinion. It is a symbol of fear and control. It never ever should never have been mandated, only recommended.
  - throwaway290 4y ago
    Think about it. It's only a symbol of control and dehumanizing if you don't want to do it. Is waiting at a red light or wearing clothes in public dehumanizing or a symbol of control? If not then what makes masks different? And you don't want to do it because you can't see every X person who caught the virus dropping dead in front of you, since all negative consequences happen out of sight and come back at you with statistics months later you simply can't bring yourself to care, that's all.
    - aakresearch 4y ago
      Of course I don't want it. Why would I? It is like demands for intercourse from random strangers, claiming you're immoral for not caring about "benefits" for THEM. Mask IS dehumanizing, and IS a symbol of control, just like any forced sexual activity. Why breathing and face are suddenly considered less sacred than nether zone? "What makes it different", from masks, or pants, or waiting the red light? If consensual sex between lovers is a wonderful and most natural experience ever, with all soothing and healing aspects, why it is not appropriate to make it mandatory under some circumstances? Even more, why breaching sexual consent even in minor way is considered worse-than-murder in some cultures? Wearing mask is as revolting as sex against one's natural "orientation". If someone thinks this is unreasonable and one should "get help" to "fix" it, I remind them that they may be fighting against strongly held "identity" belief. "Conversion therapy" is being declared evil, for some valid reasons. And I won't even say how I feel about forced, mandatory mask wearing.
  - Diederich 4y ago
    > It is a symbol of fear and control. Perhaps to some. That feeling is probably largely driven by one's overall outlook. We started masking before any of the mandates because it just made sense to do so, to us at least. > It never ever should never have been mandated, only recommended. That's a hard question in my opinion. I naturally tend toward letting people do what they want unless they're clearly hurting others. Others have argued that masking does unambiguously reduce harm to others, but I don't find it so clear cut. I'm personally less uncomfortable with mask mandates than the widespread shutdowns. Those shutdowns caused massive harm to people. Masking? Not so much. Note I'm not quite willing, even now, to fully support mask mandates, now or previously. I see both sides of the issue. > It’s sad you get downvoted. Agreed, it is sad that opposing, perhaps uncomfortable viewpoints get pushed down.
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    Mask wearing is wonderful and freeing. More privacy in public is a great side effect.
    - throwaway290 4y ago
      Yes, once you get used to it it's dehumanizing having to take it off. 100% it's someone wants to ID you for the camera.
  - jeffbee 4y ago
    Are pants and shirts also symbols of fear and control?
    - timr 4y ago
      If you're forced to wear them on your face, yes. Covering your face, as a primate, is not a natural thing to do. Our brains have huge areas dedicated to recognition of subtle differences in facial features. We're literally wired for facial recognition. More than almost any other feature of our bodies, our faces define us as individuals. Assuming that obscuring the face has zero cost is clearly wrong. I honestly can't believe I have to say this out loud.
      - throwaway290 4y ago
        You still need to clarify how having to wear pants and shirts is not an instance of control over you. Because it is, and you only don't mind that control because you agree that you should do it. Use the same principle here. Btw idk about others but I wear a mask indoors with strangers, like in public transport or shops. I get to see all the faces I want to see and show mine outdoors or when video calling or if they are close friends or cohabitants. Wearing a mask in public has only one cost for healthy people: a dirty mask can make you sick so you must have a clean mask, and that costs either money or time spent washing (and chance of washing it wrong)
      - ABCLAW 4y ago
        >Covering your face, as a primate, is not a natural thing to do. 1) Neither is wearing pants or a shirt. 2) Something being 'natural' doesn't make it right. >Assuming that obscuring the face has zero cost is clearly wrong. It doesn't need to have zero cost in order to be the correct thing to do. The question is whether or not the trade-off is worthwhile. Let's saying masking always under all conditions is too much of an imposition, are there restrictions we can place that make the trade-off better? For instance: Is masking in high density communal areas during respiratory disease seasons with an X drop in disease propagation worth not seeing people's faces in that setting for that time period. To extrapolate this back to the pants/shirt distinction; human life would end in a generation if we weren't ever able to take off our pants and shirt as we would never have sex again, but the intolerability of that restriction doesn't make it socially accepted for me to rub my bare ass onto a bus seat. We can't have a discussion about how best to adopt masks, pants, or shirts as a technology if the only way they'll be accepted is if they're always a pure benefit in any situation.
  - eloff 4y ago
    Medical masks are not a symbol of anything. They’re a legitimate way to lower the risk of spreading germs from your own mouth and nose. They’re also marginally useful at keeping germs out. The fact that they got politicized in the USA is more a symbol of the problems with the USA than anything else.
  - dfxm12 4y ago
    It is a symbol of fear and control. Why do you think this? I see someone wearing a mask and I see someone with enough respect for their fellow man that they don't want to get them sick. That's not fear or control, that's compassion. I don't think compassion is uniquely human, but it still is humanizing.
  - diag 4y ago
    How is it a symbol of fear? Masks for infection control have been used since the late 1800s. It's purely practical. Maybe a little fear would be healthy for some people if it makes them act in a socially integrated manner. Anybody who's had covid probably doesn't want to get it again.
  - fullmoon 4y ago
    Culturally? That would be interesting to think through. I can be sold on the idea that covering one face (by any means) removes a lot of communication and social clues that are inherently human. But control?
  - D13Fd 4y ago
    How do you feel about having to wear a seatbelt?
- Diederich 4y ago
  I suppose it's a matter of perspective. My wife, son and I have been masking with 100% consistency since April 2020 (in indoor/crowded outdoor places) and we haven't felt 'dehumanized' to the slightest degree. It's not quite free; the bridge of my nose sometimes experiences some irritation, and we've had to deal with more than a hand full of hateful/snarky in person comments, but that's no biggie.
  - rajup 4y ago
    Great and if it makes you comfortable by all means keep masking. Just keep folks who do find it annoying and dehumanizing out of it. Thanks.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - blockwriter 4y ago
    Does your son do it freely of his own accord, or only at the behest of one or both of his parents? I would check in with him in ten years as to how sanguine he feels about a rather uncommon rite of hygiene being imposed, or simply encouraged, during his childhood or adolescence for 2+ years.
- tshaddox 4y ago
  Why do you describe it as dehumanizing? Would you also describe mask-wearing among dentists, surgeons, painters, etc. as dehumanizing?
  - rayiner 4y ago
    It’s literally dehumanizing. Humans rely on being able to see each other’s faces for a wide range of non-verbal communications reasons. Learning to recognize faces and facial expressions is one of the first skills baby humans learn how to do. Being from the south, we smile when we pass each other on the street. You can’t do that in a mask. Maybe you folks from NYC and SF don’t miss that—after all you can still glare at people with hostility wearing a mask—but it’s a major loss in quality of life for the rest of us. Professionals wearing masks in specific contexts is different than advocating for ordinary people to wear masks in public settings.
  - Rebelgecko 4y ago
    Dehumanized by strangers isn't necessarily a bad thing. I've talked to multiple women who prefer to wear masks on public transit because they're less likely to get catcalled or harassed
- tonetheman 4y ago
  Yes make sure to tell your doctor you think wearing a mask is before they work on you or you mother or your child. Tell them you think masks are dehuminizing. Or just skip to what you really mean, tell your doctor who is going to operate on your or your child that you do not think they work. Moron.
  - dang 4y ago
    You can't attack others like that here, regardless of how wrong they are or you feel they are. Since you've mostly been posting flamewar comments and ideological battle comments (all of which is against HN's guidelines), I've banned this account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- asiachick 4y ago
  > dehumanizing So you effectively just insulted like 1.5 billion asians who've been wearing masks for years? I'd call it humanizing. I care for others so I put on the mask.
ajkjk 4y ago
Not generally opposed to masking, but the answer is "up to the individual" and "clearly indicated by their choices".
kjksf 4y ago
Being killed by a falling brick is a very clear cost. How would you characterize the costs associated with wearing a hard hat most of the time when in public? Talking about cost without normalizing for probability of prevention is meaningless yet you want to frame the discussion to be purely about (low) cost of wearing masks. We had a year of a pretty tough lockdown, most people wearing masks, distancing in grocery shops, restaurants and "non-essential" shops and companies closed, no public events, work from home, most people staying at home etc. And yet people were getting sick with covid, even those wearing masks. Masks alone won't protect you from covid. Even pretty hard core isolation might not protect you. We basically have no idea how effective just wearing masks is. It surely reduces the probability but by how much? Feel free to wear masks and hard hats but don't pretend you know for sure it's a rational choice.
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  Also, imagine if said hard hat caused unknown long-term effects by itself. We know, for a fact, that some plastic fibers from masks end up in the lungs permanently. What happens when they go there? Nobody knows. How many of them are there in the average person? Nobody knows. What are the long term effects? Nobody knows. How does it affect lung development in both short-term and long-term, particularly in young people? Nobody knows. We just hope it's fine.
  - Diederich 4y ago
    How would you compare these cited risks associated with mask wear with the risks associated with more likely C19 infections, and perhaps more important with the emergent recognition of risks associated with long covid? My wife works with long covid people most of the day every day. Included are young, healthy, active, fully vaccinated people who can hardly walk up a flight of stairs...six months after a very mild C19 infection. Or senior technical members of silicon valley companies you've heard of that are so brain fogged that they are incapable of doing anything like the work they did previously. Yes, the prior paragraph is anecdotal, strong as it may be. Fortunately scientific studies are starting to gain some understanding of long covid. Compare all this to the risks associated with wearing masks. There have been cohorts of people wearing masks all day every day for many decades now. Has there been any evidence of the effects you outlined?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

listless 4y ago

Same. And I’m just getting over the flu, which was rough. A world where we constantly mask to avoid any illness at all holds 0 interest for me. I’ll take the COVID.

potatochup 4y ago

It doesn't have to be that dichotomous though. I don't wear a mask at work (which is well ventilated and people are pretty responsible about staying home when sick) but I do in higher risk situations (E.g. a plane flight)

TaylorAlexander 4y ago

There’s a lot of people in my life that don’t want to get sick. And I don’t want to have to cancel plans with them every time I feel a little fatigue, because 99% of the time that’s just due to weird sleep. But if I wasn’t masked I would be constantly wondering if I was getting sick and if I should cancel plans. My parents are elderly, my partners partner is vulnerable. There’s a lot of people in my life that can’t afford to get sick because they would infect their entire household. I guess it’s fine if no one you hang out with cares, but that’s not the case for me. I should also note that I don’t work with other people. I might feel differently if I had to mask at work all the time. I do keep a mask for the 2% of the time at work I interact with others. But the biggest thing is grocery stores. Not masking there you’re just asking to elevate community transmission. You’re increasing the risks for others. I’d love it if the virus was gone, but it just isn’t.

FullStackAda 4y ago

Especially considering I can mask all the way in all public spaces, my kid will bring all the viruses from public schools all the same.

meroes 4y ago

Good for you for having the choice. I can't make the choice for my immunocompromised roommate.