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The Rural Electrification Model is the way to go, introduced during the FDR New Deal era. It consisted of municipal-scale networks (also applicable to fiber op

The Rural Electrification Model is the way to go, introduced during the FDR New Deal era. It consisted of municipal-scale networks (also applicable to fiber optic networks). https://www.investopedia.com/rural-electrification-act-5119177 https://www.investopedia.com/rural-electrification-act-51191... > "At first, the plan was to give these loans to companies in order to help them build electricity infrastructure in rural areas—a plan that proved too costly. So instead, lawmakers chose a type of organization well known to farmers: the cooperative, or co-op. The idea was that if farmers could organize themselves into co-ops, the REA could distribute loans to them at very low interest rates—between 2% and 3%, depending on their state—to build electricity infrastructure." Note that a key reason for its success was that they didn't use anything like a modern federal contracting program, i.e. paying private companies, but instead worked directly with rural co-ops (just extend that to towns and cities). Of course, this would mean taking over the transmission infrastructure from the investor-owned utilities in California.

mikestew 4y ago
I grew up using a rural electrical co-op. Despite the high winds, occasional blizzards, and regular thunderstorms of the Indiana plains, it was far more reliable than our current service in Redmond with Puget Sound Energy. To PSE's credit, their service is more reliable than it was ten years ago. But still, I'd never felt the need to own a generator until we moved to Redmond.
- Arainach 4y ago
  To be somewhat fair to PSE, it's generally simpler to plan for wind and ice than falling trees, which the Indiana plains relatively lack. As a proponent of "if the trees are such a problem why not bury the lines" who has since had to dig some trenches in the hellish rocky clay of King County, I am somewhat more sympathetic to their plight.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    It's not even just the cost of digging. The cost of the design and the cables is also way more expensive. The wires hung on poles aren't even insulated, while buried cable needs some pretty fancy cabling (lots of insulation, lots of armoring, etc)
  - int_19h 4y ago
    As it happens, I live in King County, but in an area serviced by a suburban (former rural) electric co-op. Plenty of falling trees here, as well. But we consistently have fewer blackouts every year than my friends in Redmond and Bellevue.
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      The east side has lots of blackouts (I WFH with many, and they will go OOF a lot during wind storms), mainly Kirkland, Bellevue, Redmond. Oddly enough, they have a lot of buried lines as well, at least more than we do in Seattle, and here in Ballard we don’t have outages nearly as much as they do. Maybe we simply don’t have as many trees over here?
      - int_19h 4y ago
        I'm in North Bend. Having previously lived in Redmond and then Bellevue, I'd say there's a lot more trees here.
  - mikestew 4y ago
    No, you make a perfectly valid point. Not too many corn stalks are going to fall on power lines in Indiana. Though one year there was an ice storm so bad, the accumulated ice pulled the high tension towers/pylons to the ground in crumpled heaps. That took a little while to restore power.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    I don't buy it. Maine has small power faults attributed to falling trees, but it's usually limited to only a few residents at a time because they PROACTIVELY trim problem trees and build a redundant system that can route around a downed line. We also have ice storms every year and after many people died from it in the 90s we decided to stop that from being a problem too. The fact is, it's not hard or expensive to make a reliable network when you charge 30 cents per kWh, hell, CMP was building around ice storms and occasional windstorms and all those other problems we experience for 6 cents per kWh until very recently! They basically replaced every line in the lower half of the state with that price A reliable transmission grid does not require burying cables! It requires engineering and fault analysis and proactive spending and caring about your customers. If your distributor doesn't have reliable infrastructure, it's not because they can't afford it, it's because they don't care and don't have to fear losing you as a customer.
    - burritas 4y ago
      Maine's trees are tiny compared to the PNW. Most of them would hardly graze the line if they fell over. It's really difficult to prune, say, 50 miles of Douglas-fir that stands easily over 150-200ft and grows right next to the lines -- many of their limbs are fatter than any tree I saw in the northeast. You'd have to get a crane and block the road off, and one tree could take a good part of a day. Can't fell them either, generally speaking, as you get into all sorts of disputes and the environmentalists will send you to hell 50 different ways with lawsuits.
      - nine_k 4y ago
        If the fir stands 150ft high right next to your power line, you have failed to proactively prune it.
        burritas 4y ago
        Well the tree was there a few centuries before the line was. And like I said, it's impractical to fall them.
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    > As a proponent of "if the trees are such a problem why not bury the lines" I really don't like the concept of burying your infrastructure. The problem is that once you've done it, you can never change the system. You're stuck with whatever you have until the gulf between what you have and what you want is so vast that it makes sense to install a new system from scratch. Burying the lines is great, if you're confident you won't want to make any changes for the next 100 years.
  - djmips 4y ago
    I lived in the Redmond area and I also lived in Northern BC - and despite all the bad storms and ice of Northern BC - I never had power loss for more than 8 hours. It was a lot worse in the Redmond area and owning a generator was pretty valuable.
- grogenaut 4y ago
  I needed a generator in MO in St. Louis and out in the boonies except I lived next to the biggest hospital and we had underground power. We literally never lost power my first 30 years of life. I live in Newcastle, it's very consistent with the first windstorm of the year. I just assume we'll lose power but you know it's coming. Then it's good for another year. I've considered a genny or a house battery but haven't really needed it. Luckily it happens in november not when it's actually cold. This is pretty consistent for 15 years here. The trees here are so much bigger than indiana. my friends come in from there and are like "fuuk you weren't lying". When I took my song GF to STL who grew up here she said "Why do the trees look like short broccoli?"
- icelancer 4y ago
  PSE has gotten quite a bit better over the last 10+ years. Grid reliability was shockingly terrible when I first moved here some 15+ years ago.
ncphil 4y ago
All public infrastructure should be run using the co-op model and financed directly by government. Both private investors and government have consistently failed to "do the right thing" on almost every level. That includes electric, water, communications (fiber), and transportation (roads, bridges, railways and buses).
- jahewson 4y ago
  > “financed directly by government” Wouldn’t work in my city where tax raises have to be approved by voters and they refuse to accept a tax increase to pay to fix the water system and re-pave the roads. The city government sends fliers round explaining to people that they need to vote for it, but to no avail.

mikestew 4y ago

I grew up using a rural electrical co-op. Despite the high winds, occasional blizzards, and regular thunderstorms of the Indiana plains, it was far more reliable than our current service in Redmond with Puget Sound Energy. To PSE's credit, their service is more reliable than it was ten years ago. But still, I'd never felt the need to own a generator until we moved to Redmond.

Arainach 4y ago
To be somewhat fair to PSE, it's generally simpler to plan for wind and ice than falling trees, which the Indiana plains relatively lack. As a proponent of "if the trees are such a problem why not bury the lines" who has since had to dig some trenches in the hellish rocky clay of King County, I am somewhat more sympathetic to their plight.
- vel0city 4y ago
  It's not even just the cost of digging. The cost of the design and the cables is also way more expensive. The wires hung on poles aren't even insulated, while buried cable needs some pretty fancy cabling (lots of insulation, lots of armoring, etc)
- int_19h 4y ago
  As it happens, I live in King County, but in an area serviced by a suburban (former rural) electric co-op. Plenty of falling trees here, as well. But we consistently have fewer blackouts every year than my friends in Redmond and Bellevue.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    The east side has lots of blackouts (I WFH with many, and they will go OOF a lot during wind storms), mainly Kirkland, Bellevue, Redmond. Oddly enough, they have a lot of buried lines as well, at least more than we do in Seattle, and here in Ballard we don’t have outages nearly as much as they do. Maybe we simply don’t have as many trees over here?
    - int_19h 4y ago
      I'm in North Bend. Having previously lived in Redmond and then Bellevue, I'd say there's a lot more trees here.
- mikestew 4y ago
  No, you make a perfectly valid point. Not too many corn stalks are going to fall on power lines in Indiana. Though one year there was an ice storm so bad, the accumulated ice pulled the high tension towers/pylons to the ground in crumpled heaps. That took a little while to restore power.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  I don't buy it. Maine has small power faults attributed to falling trees, but it's usually limited to only a few residents at a time because they PROACTIVELY trim problem trees and build a redundant system that can route around a downed line. We also have ice storms every year and after many people died from it in the 90s we decided to stop that from being a problem too. The fact is, it's not hard or expensive to make a reliable network when you charge 30 cents per kWh, hell, CMP was building around ice storms and occasional windstorms and all those other problems we experience for 6 cents per kWh until very recently! They basically replaced every line in the lower half of the state with that price A reliable transmission grid does not require burying cables! It requires engineering and fault analysis and proactive spending and caring about your customers. If your distributor doesn't have reliable infrastructure, it's not because they can't afford it, it's because they don't care and don't have to fear losing you as a customer.
  - burritas 4y ago
    Maine's trees are tiny compared to the PNW. Most of them would hardly graze the line if they fell over. It's really difficult to prune, say, 50 miles of Douglas-fir that stands easily over 150-200ft and grows right next to the lines -- many of their limbs are fatter than any tree I saw in the northeast. You'd have to get a crane and block the road off, and one tree could take a good part of a day. Can't fell them either, generally speaking, as you get into all sorts of disputes and the environmentalists will send you to hell 50 different ways with lawsuits.
    - nine_k 4y ago
      If the fir stands 150ft high right next to your power line, you have failed to proactively prune it.
      - burritas 4y ago
        Well the tree was there a few centuries before the line was. And like I said, it's impractical to fall them.
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  > As a proponent of "if the trees are such a problem why not bury the lines" I really don't like the concept of burying your infrastructure. The problem is that once you've done it, you can never change the system. You're stuck with whatever you have until the gulf between what you have and what you want is so vast that it makes sense to install a new system from scratch. Burying the lines is great, if you're confident you won't want to make any changes for the next 100 years.
- djmips 4y ago
  I lived in the Redmond area and I also lived in Northern BC - and despite all the bad storms and ice of Northern BC - I never had power loss for more than 8 hours. It was a lot worse in the Redmond area and owning a generator was pretty valuable.
grogenaut 4y ago
I needed a generator in MO in St. Louis and out in the boonies except I lived next to the biggest hospital and we had underground power. We literally never lost power my first 30 years of life. I live in Newcastle, it's very consistent with the first windstorm of the year. I just assume we'll lose power but you know it's coming. Then it's good for another year. I've considered a genny or a house battery but haven't really needed it. Luckily it happens in november not when it's actually cold. This is pretty consistent for 15 years here. The trees here are so much bigger than indiana. my friends come in from there and are like "fuuk you weren't lying". When I took my song GF to STL who grew up here she said "Why do the trees look like short broccoli?"
icelancer 4y ago
PSE has gotten quite a bit better over the last 10+ years. Grid reliability was shockingly terrible when I first moved here some 15+ years ago.

ncphil 4y ago

All public infrastructure should be run using the co-op model and financed directly by government. Both private investors and government have consistently failed to "do the right thing" on almost every level. That includes electric, water, communications (fiber), and transportation (roads, bridges, railways and buses).

jahewson 4y ago
> “financed directly by government” Wouldn’t work in my city where tax raises have to be approved by voters and they refuse to accept a tax increase to pay to fix the water system and re-pave the roads. The city government sends fliers round explaining to people that they need to vote for it, but to no avail.