5 ms·

Recently I wanted to teach my kid Smalltalk and I deep-dived into the current Smalltalk landscape... I wanted to show him how to create desktop apps using a "UI

by pulse7 4y ago

Recently I wanted to teach my kid Smalltalk and I deep-dived into the current Smalltalk landscape... I wanted to show him how to create desktop apps using a "UI Designer" tool (like it was possible with WindowBuilder in Visual Smalltalk in the 1990s). Impossible to get a copy of Visual Smalltalk these days... Pharo doesn't have a UI designer... VA Smalltalk by Instantiations isn't free anymore... VisualWorks is not free...

Avshalom 4y ago
https://github.com/dolphinsmalltalk/Dolphin https://github.com/dolphinsmalltalk/Dolphin Dolphin had a 'view composer' but obviously it's a bit pining for the fjords.
terminalcommand 4y ago
What about Squeak?
- spindle 4y ago
  Yes, and Cuis is also good: https://cuis.st/ https://cuis.st/ Cuis aims to be reasonably complete and polished, and very stable, while having fewer base classes than Squeak, and way fewer than Pharo.
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  They specifically called out the lack of a UI designer. Which isn't really a thing in Squeak, Pharo, etc. Though that's kind of not fully the case when one consider Morphic is a kind of prototype-based authoring tool. There's an interactive authoring/physical manipulation aspect to Morphic UI construction.
  - morphle 4y ago
    You can make any GUI from Morphs so you don't need a Specific GUI designer. But if you want one: https://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/trac/SqueakCommunityProjects/wiki/designer https://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/trac/SqueakCommuni...
trashburger 4y ago
Yeah, the landscape is quite sad. I've never used the smalltalk UI Designer, how was it like? Do you have a video/article about it?
- pulse7 4y ago
  Very similar to WindowBuilder Pro for Java. There are videos on YouTube (search for WindowBuilder).
schipplock 4y ago
Regarding VisualWorks: https://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/ https://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/ If you scroll down to the bottom/footer, under "Get started" you can click "Buy Cincom Smalltalk": https://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/product/cincom-smalltalk-rev-9-1/ https://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/product/cincom-smalltal... Ok, you can't (page not found), but the link above is "Try Cincom Smalltalk": https://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/try/ https://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/try/ there you can download a "personal edition". Well, you have to fill out a form and provide some information to get the download link. Perhaps this is an option for you.
- schipplock 4y ago
  I filled out the form 12 days ago, I never heard back from then, I didn't receive a link :(.
pasc1878 4y ago
And this is one of the reasons Smalltalk did not take off in the 90s. All the useful versions priced themselves for the enterprise or took over the ones tuned for Windows. See Gilad Bracha's view on why Smalltalk did not take off https://gbracha.blogspot.com/2020/05/bits-of-history-words-of-advice.html https://gbracha.blogspot.com/2020/05/bits-of-history-words-o... for more complete view.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  From my point of view, having IBM fully pivot from Smalltalk into Java was one of the biggest reasons, and the millions that Sun pumped into having the JDK available as free beer. On OS/2, SOM (much better COM like API), also had support for Smalltalk besides C and C++, effectively giving Smalltalk a role in OS/2, similar to VB and later .NET on Windows.
- cabalamat 4y ago
  Smalltalk/V from the late 1980s was quite cheap, as I recall.
  - igouy 4y ago
    For example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32441206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32441206
  - pasc1878 4y ago
    Yes that was the one I used and was the one that I meant by saying "took over the ones tuned for Windows." I think ParcPlace took it over and replaced it by the expensive one which was OS independent and not tuned to Windows.
    - pulse7 4y ago
      In 1995 Digitalk already charged a few thousands bucks for VisualSmalltalk...
- igouy 4y ago
  Previously "The Rise and Fall of Commercial Smalltalk (2020)" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29223880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29223880
TheCondor 4y ago
It’s not the same as a point click up builder, but spec is pretty easy to get something started. I’d love to see a visual designer though, not sure why that hasn’t been made yet.
morphle 4y ago
I prefer making Etoys apps on top of Squeak

by pulse7 4y ago

Avshalom 4y ago

https://github.com/dolphinsmalltalk/Dolphin https://github.com/dolphinsmalltalk/Dolphin Dolphin had a 'view composer' but obviously it's a bit pining for the fjords.

terminalcommand 4y ago

What about Squeak?

spindle 4y ago
Yes, and Cuis is also good: https://cuis.st/ https://cuis.st/ Cuis aims to be reasonably complete and polished, and very stable, while having fewer base classes than Squeak, and way fewer than Pharo.
cmrdporcupine 4y ago
They specifically called out the lack of a UI designer. Which isn't really a thing in Squeak, Pharo, etc. Though that's kind of not fully the case when one consider Morphic is a kind of prototype-based authoring tool. There's an interactive authoring/physical manipulation aspect to Morphic UI construction.
- morphle 4y ago
  You can make any GUI from Morphs so you don't need a Specific GUI designer. But if you want one: https://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/trac/SqueakCommunityProjects/wiki/designer https://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/trac/SqueakCommuni...

trashburger 4y ago

Yeah, the landscape is quite sad. I've never used the smalltalk UI Designer, how was it like? Do you have a video/article about it?

pulse7 4y ago
Very similar to WindowBuilder Pro for Java. There are videos on YouTube (search for WindowBuilder).

schipplock 4y ago

Regarding VisualWorks: https://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/ https://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/ If you scroll down to the bottom/footer, under "Get started" you can click "Buy Cincom Smalltalk": https://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/product/cincom-smalltalk-rev-9-1/ https://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/product/cincom-smalltal... Ok, you can't (page not found), but the link above is "Try Cincom Smalltalk": https://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/try/ https://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/try/ there you can download a "personal edition". Well, you have to fill out a form and provide some information to get the download link. Perhaps this is an option for you.

schipplock 4y ago
I filled out the form 12 days ago, I never heard back from then, I didn't receive a link :(.

pasc1878 4y ago

And this is one of the reasons Smalltalk did not take off in the 90s. All the useful versions priced themselves for the enterprise or took over the ones tuned for Windows. See Gilad Bracha's view on why Smalltalk did not take off https://gbracha.blogspot.com/2020/05/bits-of-history-words-of-advice.html https://gbracha.blogspot.com/2020/05/bits-of-history-words-o... for more complete view.

pjmlp 4y ago
From my point of view, having IBM fully pivot from Smalltalk into Java was one of the biggest reasons, and the millions that Sun pumped into having the JDK available as free beer. On OS/2, SOM (much better COM like API), also had support for Smalltalk besides C and C++, effectively giving Smalltalk a role in OS/2, similar to VB and later .NET on Windows.
cabalamat 4y ago
Smalltalk/V from the late 1980s was quite cheap, as I recall.
- igouy 4y ago
  For example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32441206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32441206
- pasc1878 4y ago
  Yes that was the one I used and was the one that I meant by saying "took over the ones tuned for Windows." I think ParcPlace took it over and replaced it by the expensive one which was OS independent and not tuned to Windows.
  - pulse7 4y ago
    In 1995 Digitalk already charged a few thousands bucks for VisualSmalltalk...
igouy 4y ago
Previously "The Rise and Fall of Commercial Smalltalk (2020)" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29223880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29223880

TheCondor 4y ago

It’s not the same as a point click up builder, but spec is pretty easy to get something started. I’d love to see a visual designer though, not sure why that hasn’t been made yet.

morphle 4y ago

I prefer making Etoys apps on top of Squeak