7 ms·

Meta, Microsoft, AWS and TomTom launch Overture Foundation for open map data

147 points by bouk 4y ago

elaus 4y ago
I'm curious to see how open that data will be in the end: Is everything public domain, who can change the data and will information flow back to OSM? What is the distinction to OSM?
- pella 4y ago
  see the FAQ: https://overturemaps.org/resources/faq/ https://overturemaps.org/resources/faq/
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    For those who won't click through; What is the relationship between Overture and OpenStreetMap? > Overture is a data-centric map project, not a community of individual map editors. Therefore, Overture is intended to be complementary to OSM. We combine OSM with other sources to produce new open map data sets. Overture data will be available for use by the OpenStreetMap community under compatible open data licenses. Overture members are encouraged to contribute to OSM directly. How will Overture data be licensed? > Data contributed to ODbL licensed datasets will be contributed under both the ODbL and CDLA permissive v2. Contributions to CDLA permissive v2 datasets will be contributed under the CDLA permissive v2. How will Overture code be licensed? > Overture’s open source code will be subject to the MIT license.
    - ep103 4y ago
      So basically, they're going to use Open Street Map's data, but as a data source to their own project. They won't be giving their efforts to improving OSM? Fucking lame.
      - jcrawfordor 4y ago
        I think the focus on Overture is going to be on machine-generated data like imagery-based mapping. Unfortunately it isn't really super practical to feed this kind of thing back into the OSM project right now (extremely high change rate makes it hard to review changes, OSM process for approval of automated imports is oriented towards a high level of reliability that this data doesn't always have). I think maintaining this kind of data separately from OSM but still permissively licensed makes a lot of sense, and will benefit the OSM project as these data layers will become useful sources for the manual, human-intelligence-based mapping that the OSM project is really built around. Or to put it a little differently: from my experience with OSM politics (not expansive but also not that small), the OSM project probably doesn't want this data. It would become a huge headache for OSM contributors to do QA on. There have been multiple notable incidents of companies starting to feed automatically generated data in to OSM and getting lambasted for it. Keeping it separate from OSM but available for use with and for OSM is the respectful thing to do.
        mikeyouse 4y ago
        That's how I view this too. Increasing the 'demand' for OSM's data will be a net good since it guarantees a future where companies are using it and reliant on it. Not burdening them with all of this extra info that they don't want and can't reasonably steward makes a lot of sense. It's hard to see how this is anything but a big plus for the OSM community.
        Doctor_Fegg 4y ago
        This is spot on.
    - matkoniecz 4y ago
      > We combine OSM with other sources to produce new open map data sets. I worry that they will proceed to claim that it means that they do not need to actually attribute OSM. Well, Facebook for example is already violating OSM license by hiding attribution in places where normal user will never see it - even typical HN user may not click on this hidden button on FB maps.
pantulis 4y ago
"Google is a notable omission from the Overture Maps Foundation’s founding members. " Also Apple seems to be missing there.
- throwoutway 4y ago
  I hope Apple, Mapbox and others get involved here. It will be an important counterweight to Google’s dominance in Maps, especially with them increasing prices on customers about a year ago https://www.techighness.com/post/google-maps-price-hike-its-effect-on-businesses-and-future-repercussions/ https://www.techighness.com/post/google-maps-price-hike-its-...
  - mistrial9 4y ago
    MapBox imploded https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31812401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31812401
- Doctor_Fegg 4y ago
  ...also Esri, OpenStreetMap Foundation, Mapbox.
- molly_radstowe 4y ago
  Well, it's obviously a map that will be a competitor to Google.
- ruffrey 4y ago
  Esri, garmin and mapbox as well
brylie 4y ago
It will be interesting to see how the data is licensed. E.g., will they use a Copyleft license compatible with OpenStreetMaps or a more permissive license like CC-by? If the license permits, it will also be interesting to see how the schema interoperability with OSM develops to build on that enormous data source.
- Doctor_Fegg 4y ago
  The FAQ suggests they'll use a permissive licence (CDLA Permissive) by default, and the ODbL (as used by OSM) when contributing to existing ODbL-licensed data.
Terretta 4y ago
> ... the program is driven by Amazon Web Services (AWS), Facebook’s parent company Meta, Microsoft, and Dutch mapping company TomTom ... Google is a notable omission from the Overture Maps Foundation’s founding members... > Moreover, with the iPhone arriving around the same time, a combination that brought maps and navigation into the pockets of millions of people globally, this had a monumental impact on incumbents such as TomTom ... > In the intervening years, TomTom has tried to evolve, striking map and data partnerships with the likes of Uber and Microsoft ... - - - Super weird this article keeps carrying on about TomTom and listing half of FAANG, even mentioning impact of iPhone, yet not mentioning Apple using TomTom worldwide from 2012 till 2020. Apple Maps was essentially pure TomTom at the start, and still relying on TomTom for USA up until 2 years ago when US went Apple native, and (as far as I know, I haven't driven outside US since pandemic) is still using TomTom internationally. Article about dropping TomTom in domestic US in 2020: “…less a rollout of fresh features than an important step toward the company's own mapping independence” https://archive.vn/tGmQc https://archive.vn/tGmQc A 2012 discussion of TomTom the day after Maps launched: “Does Apple Maps sound the death knell for TomTom? Probably not, although it might mean less people want to buy TomTom for iPhone. TomTom will surely have factored any negatives into the positives of its licensing agreement: this is how business works.” https://www.pocket-lint.com/apps/news/tomtom/115879-tomtom-supplies-apple-maps-ios6 https://www.pocket-lint.com/apps/news/tomtom/115879-tomtom-s...
- GeekyBear 4y ago
  > (as far as I know) is still using TomTom internationally Apple has been expanding the areas where they replace TomTom's data with their own. Today, they are using their own data in the US, Canada, UK, New Zealand, Australia and most of the EU. Another expansion to fill out the EU coverage is in testing and expected to go live this week. https://www.justinobeirne.com/new-apple-maps-france-monaco-new-zealand https://www.justinobeirne.com/new-apple-maps-france-monaco-n...
darrmit 4y ago
Surely someone here knows better than me, but it seems Google's dominance in this space is not due to pure mapping data (although that also seems to be the best in the world) - it's due to the massive amounts of data the join in with the mapping data to provide real-time road closure and traffic information as well as what the "best route" is. Apple Maps has taken me some really strange routes (I live in a rural area) while Google consistently picks the route you'd expect. I've been hoping for a Google alternative because their monopoly on mapping that leads to further data collection is terrifying, but I'm bearish on the idea of pure mapping data being it.
- Alex3917 4y ago
  > Google consistently picks the route you'd expect. This definitely isn't my experience. For me, Google consistently picks more dangerous routes even if they offer little to no time savings. The app consistently tries to kill me by doing things like routing me through crazy 5-way intersections when it could just as easily send me one street over for no additional time cost. Most big cities publish data on their most dangerous intersections, so it's not like it should be an especially hard problem to fix.
  - MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
    Where I live, Google maps like to suggest this one comically evil route that takes you across 3 lanes of traffic, through a "roundabout" then across the 3 lanes of opposing traffic. On a highway. While yes, the "roundabout" does exist, its there for only two reasons: for emergency vehicles to idle in and for routing traffic when the segment of highway beyond is closed.
  - woooooo 4y ago
    Wouldn't it create traffic problems if they start routing everyone through side streets around the main intersections?
  - core-utility 4y ago
    Published data is a catch-22. Dangerous intersections may look worse than other options simply due to the fact that they're more heavily used. In my area, I have 3 different options to get to the same location: 1. Take the most western-route to a traffic light, make a right, and then another right into the destination. 2. Take a more slightly eastern single-lane back road that puts me right out at the destination with still an immediate right onto the main road before getting there (danger factor in the single-lane aspect) 3. Take the most eastern route, make an unprotected left turn onto the main highway (often having to use the center median lane as a buffer for space), and then make another unprotected left into the destination. Option 1 would show the most published crash data since it's a traffic-light intersection and is most busy by default, while I'd argue that it's also still the safest.
molly_radstowe 4y ago
To me, this is the Google alternative that we have been waiting for. Open, collaborative, but with some real money attached to it. I hope it works.
elforce002 4y ago
Interesting. We're using maps API at work and We're looking for other solutions just in case google goes nuts hiking it's prices, etc...
ChrisLTD 4y ago
It'd be great if Apple would throw their weight behind this effort.
- thefz 4y ago
  Apple and open data in the same room? Nah. They won't bat an eye if no profit is involved, and no guarantee to be the only one to profit.
  - mtmail 4y ago
    Apple has full-time employees contributing to openstreetmap https://github.com/osmlab/appledata/issues https://github.com/osmlab/appledata/issues
thefz 4y ago
> The founding companies are planning to engage in collaborative map-building programs, meshing data from myriad open data sources and knocking it into a format that’s consistent, standardized, and fit for use in production systems and applications. This will include channeling data from long-established projects such as OpenStreetMap, in addition to open data provided by municipalities. Interested to see if OpenStreetMap could benefit from this as well.
- snarf21 4y ago
  I don't understand why they don't just open source an engine that uses OpenStreetMap .. Why do we need a new project and new foundation? .. It just seems like a new wall around it so that AWS et. al. can lock people into EC2 and data charges.
  - thrill 4y ago
    Probably don't want that hideous mandated banner.
    - Doctor_Fegg 4y ago
      Banner? OSM just requires simple attribution like every other major map data supplier does.
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    > Why do we need a new project and new foundation? My best guess: control, and not having to contribute back mapping data to OSM.
  - WorldMaker 4y ago
    From their FAQ: > Overture is a data-centric map project, not a community of individual map editors. Therefore, Overture is intended to be complementary to OSM. We combine OSM with other sources to produce new open map data sets. Overture data will be available for use by the OpenStreetMap community under compatible open data licenses. Overture members are encouraged to contribute to OSM directly. It sounds to me like this Foundation wants to be less of an "open Wiki" for data and more of a QA/QC "task force" for OSM data: both contributing known good data back to OSM and trying to curate the best of OSM data back out. Also, it sounds like there's an AR/3D spatial data focus here that goes beyond what OSM currently maps. Though everything is still vaguely worded and lacking examples, so who knows.
liotier 4y ago
Daylight distribution and building footprint were toes dipped in the pool… Now everyone jumped in. ODbL-aware, both upstream & downstream of Openstreetmap. Fun times ahead at the interface between their industrial scale automation and Openstreetmap craft mapping !
spdustin 4y ago
I’d like to see them commit to free map updates for the navigation systems preinstalled in many vehicles. Every car I’ve owned in the past 18 years has used TomTom maps, and has charged for annual map updates. In the last 12 years, you’ve just downloaded them onto a USB drive and your head unit recognized the data. The download data seems to be encrypted, and sometimes even vehicle-specific. My guess is the vehicle specific data is to account for features related to physical buttons on the head unit, GPS antenna input, and signals used for dead-reckoning.

147 points by bouk 4y ago

I'm curious to see how open that data will be in the end: Is everything public domain, who can change the data and will information flow back to OSM? What is the distinction to OSM?

pella 4y ago
see the FAQ: https://overturemaps.org/resources/faq/ https://overturemaps.org/resources/faq/
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  For those who won't click through; What is the relationship between Overture and OpenStreetMap? > Overture is a data-centric map project, not a community of individual map editors. Therefore, Overture is intended to be complementary to OSM. We combine OSM with other sources to produce new open map data sets. Overture data will be available for use by the OpenStreetMap community under compatible open data licenses. Overture members are encouraged to contribute to OSM directly. How will Overture data be licensed? > Data contributed to ODbL licensed datasets will be contributed under both the ODbL and CDLA permissive v2. Contributions to CDLA permissive v2 datasets will be contributed under the CDLA permissive v2. How will Overture code be licensed? > Overture’s open source code will be subject to the MIT license.
  - ep103 4y ago
    So basically, they're going to use Open Street Map's data, but as a data source to their own project. They won't be giving their efforts to improving OSM? Fucking lame.
    - jcrawfordor 4y ago
      I think the focus on Overture is going to be on machine-generated data like imagery-based mapping. Unfortunately it isn't really super practical to feed this kind of thing back into the OSM project right now (extremely high change rate makes it hard to review changes, OSM process for approval of automated imports is oriented towards a high level of reliability that this data doesn't always have). I think maintaining this kind of data separately from OSM but still permissively licensed makes a lot of sense, and will benefit the OSM project as these data layers will become useful sources for the manual, human-intelligence-based mapping that the OSM project is really built around. Or to put it a little differently: from my experience with OSM politics (not expansive but also not that small), the OSM project probably doesn't want this data. It would become a huge headache for OSM contributors to do QA on. There have been multiple notable incidents of companies starting to feed automatically generated data in to OSM and getting lambasted for it. Keeping it separate from OSM but available for use with and for OSM is the respectful thing to do.
      - mikeyouse 4y ago
        That's how I view this too. Increasing the 'demand' for OSM's data will be a net good since it guarantees a future where companies are using it and reliant on it. Not burdening them with all of this extra info that they don't want and can't reasonably steward makes a lot of sense. It's hard to see how this is anything but a big plus for the OSM community.
      - Doctor_Fegg 4y ago
        This is spot on.
  - matkoniecz 4y ago
    > We combine OSM with other sources to produce new open map data sets. I worry that they will proceed to claim that it means that they do not need to actually attribute OSM. Well, Facebook for example is already violating OSM license by hiding attribution in places where normal user will never see it - even typical HN user may not click on this hidden button on FB maps.

pantulis 4y ago

"Google is a notable omission from the Overture Maps Foundation’s founding members. " Also Apple seems to be missing there.

throwoutway 4y ago
I hope Apple, Mapbox and others get involved here. It will be an important counterweight to Google’s dominance in Maps, especially with them increasing prices on customers about a year ago https://www.techighness.com/post/google-maps-price-hike-its-effect-on-businesses-and-future-repercussions/ https://www.techighness.com/post/google-maps-price-hike-its-...
- mistrial9 4y ago
  MapBox imploded https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31812401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31812401
Doctor_Fegg 4y ago
...also Esri, OpenStreetMap Foundation, Mapbox.
molly_radstowe 4y ago
Well, it's obviously a map that will be a competitor to Google.
ruffrey 4y ago
Esri, garmin and mapbox as well

brylie 4y ago

It will be interesting to see how the data is licensed. E.g., will they use a Copyleft license compatible with OpenStreetMaps or a more permissive license like CC-by? If the license permits, it will also be interesting to see how the schema interoperability with OSM develops to build on that enormous data source.

Doctor_Fegg 4y ago
The FAQ suggests they'll use a permissive licence (CDLA Permissive) by default, and the ODbL (as used by OSM) when contributing to existing ODbL-licensed data.

Terretta 4y ago

> ... the program is driven by Amazon Web Services (AWS), Facebook’s parent company Meta, Microsoft, and Dutch mapping company TomTom ... Google is a notable omission from the Overture Maps Foundation’s founding members... > Moreover, with the iPhone arriving around the same time, a combination that brought maps and navigation into the pockets of millions of people globally, this had a monumental impact on incumbents such as TomTom ... > In the intervening years, TomTom has tried to evolve, striking map and data partnerships with the likes of Uber and Microsoft ... - - - Super weird this article keeps carrying on about TomTom and listing half of FAANG, even mentioning impact of iPhone, yet not mentioning Apple using TomTom worldwide from 2012 till 2020. Apple Maps was essentially pure TomTom at the start, and still relying on TomTom for USA up until 2 years ago when US went Apple native, and (as far as I know, I haven't driven outside US since pandemic) is still using TomTom internationally. Article about dropping TomTom in domestic US in 2020: “…less a rollout of fresh features than an important step toward the company's own mapping independence” https://archive.vn/tGmQc https://archive.vn/tGmQc A 2012 discussion of TomTom the day after Maps launched: “Does Apple Maps sound the death knell for TomTom? Probably not, although it might mean less people want to buy TomTom for iPhone. TomTom will surely have factored any negatives into the positives of its licensing agreement: this is how business works.” https://www.pocket-lint.com/apps/news/tomtom/115879-tomtom-supplies-apple-maps-ios6 https://www.pocket-lint.com/apps/news/tomtom/115879-tomtom-s...

GeekyBear 4y ago
> (as far as I know) is still using TomTom internationally Apple has been expanding the areas where they replace TomTom's data with their own. Today, they are using their own data in the US, Canada, UK, New Zealand, Australia and most of the EU. Another expansion to fill out the EU coverage is in testing and expected to go live this week. https://www.justinobeirne.com/new-apple-maps-france-monaco-new-zealand https://www.justinobeirne.com/new-apple-maps-france-monaco-n...

darrmit 4y ago

Surely someone here knows better than me, but it seems Google's dominance in this space is not due to pure mapping data (although that also seems to be the best in the world) - it's due to the massive amounts of data the join in with the mapping data to provide real-time road closure and traffic information as well as what the "best route" is. Apple Maps has taken me some really strange routes (I live in a rural area) while Google consistently picks the route you'd expect. I've been hoping for a Google alternative because their monopoly on mapping that leads to further data collection is terrifying, but I'm bearish on the idea of pure mapping data being it.

Alex3917 4y ago
> Google consistently picks the route you'd expect. This definitely isn't my experience. For me, Google consistently picks more dangerous routes even if they offer little to no time savings. The app consistently tries to kill me by doing things like routing me through crazy 5-way intersections when it could just as easily send me one street over for no additional time cost. Most big cities publish data on their most dangerous intersections, so it's not like it should be an especially hard problem to fix.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
  Where I live, Google maps like to suggest this one comically evil route that takes you across 3 lanes of traffic, through a "roundabout" then across the 3 lanes of opposing traffic. On a highway. While yes, the "roundabout" does exist, its there for only two reasons: for emergency vehicles to idle in and for routing traffic when the segment of highway beyond is closed.
- woooooo 4y ago
  Wouldn't it create traffic problems if they start routing everyone through side streets around the main intersections?
- core-utility 4y ago
  Published data is a catch-22. Dangerous intersections may look worse than other options simply due to the fact that they're more heavily used. In my area, I have 3 different options to get to the same location: 1. Take the most western-route to a traffic light, make a right, and then another right into the destination. 2. Take a more slightly eastern single-lane back road that puts me right out at the destination with still an immediate right onto the main road before getting there (danger factor in the single-lane aspect) 3. Take the most eastern route, make an unprotected left turn onto the main highway (often having to use the center median lane as a buffer for space), and then make another unprotected left into the destination. Option 1 would show the most published crash data since it's a traffic-light intersection and is most busy by default, while I'd argue that it's also still the safest.

molly_radstowe 4y ago

To me, this is the Google alternative that we have been waiting for. Open, collaborative, but with some real money attached to it. I hope it works.

elforce002 4y ago

Interesting. We're using maps API at work and We're looking for other solutions just in case google goes nuts hiking it's prices, etc...

ChrisLTD 4y ago

It'd be great if Apple would throw their weight behind this effort.

thefz 4y ago
Apple and open data in the same room? Nah. They won't bat an eye if no profit is involved, and no guarantee to be the only one to profit.
- mtmail 4y ago
  Apple has full-time employees contributing to openstreetmap https://github.com/osmlab/appledata/issues https://github.com/osmlab/appledata/issues

thefz 4y ago

> The founding companies are planning to engage in collaborative map-building programs, meshing data from myriad open data sources and knocking it into a format that’s consistent, standardized, and fit for use in production systems and applications. This will include channeling data from long-established projects such as OpenStreetMap, in addition to open data provided by municipalities. Interested to see if OpenStreetMap could benefit from this as well.

snarf21 4y ago
I don't understand why they don't just open source an engine that uses OpenStreetMap .. Why do we need a new project and new foundation? .. It just seems like a new wall around it so that AWS et. al. can lock people into EC2 and data charges.
- thrill 4y ago
  Probably don't want that hideous mandated banner.
  - Doctor_Fegg 4y ago
    Banner? OSM just requires simple attribution like every other major map data supplier does.
- sangnoir 4y ago
  > Why do we need a new project and new foundation? My best guess: control, and not having to contribute back mapping data to OSM.
- WorldMaker 4y ago
  From their FAQ: > Overture is a data-centric map project, not a community of individual map editors. Therefore, Overture is intended to be complementary to OSM. We combine OSM with other sources to produce new open map data sets. Overture data will be available for use by the OpenStreetMap community under compatible open data licenses. Overture members are encouraged to contribute to OSM directly. It sounds to me like this Foundation wants to be less of an "open Wiki" for data and more of a QA/QC "task force" for OSM data: both contributing known good data back to OSM and trying to curate the best of OSM data back out. Also, it sounds like there's an AR/3D spatial data focus here that goes beyond what OSM currently maps. Though everything is still vaguely worded and lacking examples, so who knows.

liotier 4y ago

Daylight distribution and building footprint were toes dipped in the pool… Now everyone jumped in. ODbL-aware, both upstream & downstream of Openstreetmap. Fun times ahead at the interface between their industrial scale automation and Openstreetmap craft mapping !

spdustin 4y ago

I’d like to see them commit to free map updates for the navigation systems preinstalled in many vehicles. Every car I’ve owned in the past 18 years has used TomTom maps, and has charged for annual map updates. In the last 12 years, you’ve just downloaded them onto a USB drive and your head unit recognized the data. The download data seems to be encrypted, and sometimes even vehicle-specific. My guess is the vehicle specific data is to account for features related to physical buttons on the head unit, GPS antenna input, and signals used for dead-reckoning.