7 ms·

Things to do Instead of Calling the Cops: If you see something, do something

26 points by wahnfrieden 4y ago

themodelplumber 4y ago
This was interesting to read, thanks. TBH some of the items do seem like they could be outright dangerous for the would-be-RP in many situations. The format could really use more nuance so people can make smarter decisions with the information. Like, maybe don't confront or even talk to your drunk neighbors about their music in situations like X, Y, Z. A lot of us aren't going to be gaslit into thinking that a given neighbor is magically going to be OK with personal interventions, just because we decided to act more accepting and upbeat starting now. Also for example the "don't cooperate with cops" one, that needs to be reworded or just broken out into a guide of its own--not all rallies or demonstrations are the same at the very least... A lot of the items are also based on psychological ideals held by given temperaments and cultural personality archetypes, so they are not shared by all of society and don't really need to be. In fact, acting as if one is a newly-converted community idealist is a good way to get social dichotomies to come out of the woodwork and fight against you from the start. There are many more creative ways to work around the street art issue than "just learn to like street art OR paint it over" for example. But maybe the best ones involve a framework that helps people better navigate their specific situation first. Overall I really like the idea, but get a bit of a feeling that it is going to keep some people feeling stuck doing the same things they were before. More new info, details, etc. would be so helpful--trying new things is what will work; the old stuff like the "resist at all costs" hyperbole is what keeps breaking down for communities that want to believe in community growth & success.
- kevingadd 4y ago
  IMO (as a left-leaning person politically) choosing not to call the cops is generally going to increase your danger level. It's a decision you make if you want to protect other people, because calling the cops to protect yourself or your own property rights might result in an innocent person getting injured or worse. I've called the cops before when my judgment call was that someone was in serious danger and they were the correct people to resolve it, but my bar for that is much higher than some other people I know. If I see someone looking 'suspicious' I generally mind my own business or might settle for talking to building security (not carrying guns around eager to use them) or something like that instead. This does mean that, for example, when someone tried the (locked) door on my apartment (running up and down the hallways looking for an unlocked door), I didn't call 911. I called building security instead, even though that event did make me feel unsafe.
rayiner 4y ago
This advice is almost uniformly awful, but this last one just puts women and children in danger: > Remember that police can escalate domestic violence situations. You can support friends and neighbors who are being victimized by abusers by offering them a place to stay, a ride to a safe location, or to watch their children. Utilize community resources like safe houses and hotlines. If you’re in this situation, call the police. This just happened in our neighborhood. The cops came and dragged the abusive guy off to jail where he belongs. Don’t risk becoming a statistic out of some misguided ideology.
- 8note 4y ago
  There's no lack of times where somebody called the police, and the police stopped by and shot the caller. Either/or, you can become a statistic
  - themodelplumber 4y ago
    No lack of times, but drastically different odds. What's possible is not the same as what's sometimes probable, and it's definitely not the same as what's very probable. So this do/don't call cops dichotomy is not reliable. It's pointless to argue over it & new ideas are needed.
- ivraatiems 4y ago
  First of all: Men can be victims of violent domestic incidents. Don't use "woman and children" here. However, I think you're right, in the circumstance where domestic abuse is ongoing in the moment. If there is physical violence happening, the police need to be called. If this is more of a "when he gets home he'll be so mad" situation, I think other resources are probably a good first step. Then a police report will need to be filed so a restraining order, etc., can be pursued.
  - throwaway31122 4y ago
    As male who was previously a frequent victim of domestic violence, the cops are the fucking worst for this. I don't even normally have beef with the cops, and have predominantly had good interactions with them, but the system taught to police in the U.S., the Duluth Model, is broken beyond repair. It literally teaches them to assume the guilt of men in any domestic incident, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It's absolutely bullshit, a male domestic violence victim, especially one who is disadvantaged, can have their life turned upside down by someone calling the cops.
engineer_22 4y ago
My first impulse is refute the text of the article, since I disagree with a lot of what's stated... that's not interesting to anybody else, and I'm probably not the target audience anyway. So who is the target audience?
- kevingadd 4y ago
  People who want to avoid involving the police (since many US police departments are shoot-first-ask-questions-later) but still want to improve public safety.
  - engineer_22 4y ago
    There's not been a police shooting in my city for many years, and I suspect it's similar in many other small cities in the USA. Are we talking about people in neighborhoods patrolled by officers of a different race? Are we talking about people who are or have been engaged in prohibited activity? Are we talking about big strong men who don't fear violence against themselves because they don't feel they're a target? Where's the nuance?
    - happytoexplain 4y ago
      We're talking about the generalized case, as per the article. It would be noble to try to derive dynamic advice based on variables, but probably not realistic. People either trust or distrust their local police based on the information available to them and their experiences, which may be limited, but we all still make forced judgement calls regardless.
      - engineer_22 4y ago
        I don't think that's right. In general we have police because they at some point were deemed necessary for public order. When was it generally agreed that police are detrimental to community life? EDIT: The top line is from theanarchistlibrary.org Who are the target audience of a publication like that? What kind of person reads the anarchist library, what do they have in common?
ivraatiems 4y ago
An interesting read, and I agree that most of the things on this list are a decent alternative to calling the cops. I think that there also needs to be a heuristic for when one should call the cops, though (because I don't believe, as an anarchist might, that state law enforcement is an inherently illegitimate thing to have, just because I don't like the American version). Here are some times when I would call the cops via 911 (e. g., come quickly, be prepared for something dangerous to happen): * A mugging, assault, or fight in progress. * A person brandishing a weapon - a knife or firearm, for instance. * Someone driving erratically (eg swerving, veering into incoming traffic) or hyper-aggressively (see above) * A break-in or property theft where a person is inside/nearby/would be at risk if seen Basically, any time there is an obvious, emergent, physical threat to myself or someone else for which reciprocal violence might be a necessary and valid response. For everything else, there are these resources, or the non-emergency number. Police are much less likely to respond in a hyper-aggressive way if you do not present the situation as an emergency.
ALittleLight 4y ago
Point 12 says you can support someone who is being abused by watching their children. I wonder how one brings this up. "Hey, are you going to be abused later? Need me to do some babysitting while that's happening?" I'm also reminded of the somewhat anarchist protest in Seattle called CHAZ or CHOP. They had nightly shootings and multiple people killed. CHAZ guards shot and killed a black teen who hadn't done anything and was just joyriding through the area at night.
- happytoexplain 4y ago
  You don't bring it up, you simply have relationships with people that includes child-watching. Friends and neighbors are resources to each other. Abused people absolutely take advantage of this. Your sarcasm is a little uncalled-for. Also, is your anecdote simply to summon the image of a killer upon the author? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the write-up, and it's something you could do with any ideological or political group.
  - ALittleLight 4y ago
    My anecdote is the one time in my life I've experienced people try anarchy and it immediately degenerated into chaos, violence, and murder. I suspect that's the rule for anarchies. Regarding watching the children of the domestically abused - no. If I know someone well enough to watch their kids then I'm not going to just sit idly by while they are abused. I will contact the police, because I don't care if the abuser gets hurt, imprisoned, or killed - shouldn't have been abusing. If the police were magically off limits I would settle the problem directly - which, incidentally, is why rational people prefer legal systems with enforcement agents, so that they don't have to handle things by themselves and deal with the ensuing chaos and violence.
- UtopiaPunk 4y ago
  You check up on people close to you. If the situation at home is deteriorating, it's very valuable for someone to have a way to keep their kids safe. It can be as simple as telling their kids to go to the friend's house when they get off the school bus. Also, CHOP was chill. I got cookies, browsed the free library, and hung out in the park. Protesters watched the barricades and wouldn't let police in, but ambulances could come in if someone needed health services. I didn't live there, but I felt safe when I visited. It was very different on the ground than what was reported on the news. If you hated the ideas of CHOP, it looked like hell on Earth. If you found the ideas attractive, it was a brief grasp at something bold and beautiful. A word that describes both is "anarchy."
thekashifmalik 4y ago
> Street art is beautiful! Don’t report graffiti and other street artists. If you see work that includes fascistic or hate speech, paint over it yourself or with friends. Uhhhh this sounds like terrible advice. If someone is vandalizing my property, it's well within my rights to call the cops or deal with the criminals myself. Street art can be beautiful, but it can also be ugly or unwanted.
- happytoexplain 4y ago
  Somebody painting your personal property (which invokes the image of a home or point of sale shop) is a miniscule subset of all cases of anybody "seeing graffiti". Also, the author doesn't call into question your rights. I see this a lot: Being asked to do or even just consider something, and falling all the way back on rights as an angry retort, which is irrelevant to the request. He didn't say, "do this or I'll sue you."
- chrismcb 4y ago
  Some "street art"is beautiful. But most graffiti is just an eyesore. It is even worse when it is vandalizing a public at exhibit.
scarface74 4y ago
I definitely agree with number 3. My grandfather was a diabetic and I once saw my caring supportive grandfather become combative and acting like a drunk when his blood sugar was low. If the cops had been called instead of the paramedics, I can’t imagine in hind site what would have happened.
empthought 4y ago
> Encourage teachers, coworkers, and organizers to avoid inviting police into classrooms, workplaces, and public spaces. Because that's where shootings by police definitely occur... /s This is just anarchist LARPing hate-the-pigs rhetoric masquerading as concern for safety.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  Point is to avoid propagandizing, not to avoid violence directly. Your support of inviting cops into community spaces is simply bootlicking masquerading as reasonability
  - D13Fd 4y ago
    >Your support of inviting cops into community spaces is simply bootlicking masquerading as reasonability There are communities that work with and support the police and communities that are adversarial to the police. Your "bootlicking" comment assumes everyone is adversarial to the police.
    - genewitch 4y ago
      they're adversarial to you. So, uh... what?
  - empthought 4y ago
    The point per the web page is "safety." But I am not surprised at all that this claim is a lie that people don't even bother to defend.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ekianjo 4y ago
> Street art is beautiful! Don’t report graffiti and other street artists. If you see work that includes fascistic or hate speech, paint over it yourself or with friends. This reads like a joke. So is it OK if I draw dicks on the neighbors walls by using the pretense of Street Art?
- D13Fd 4y ago
  Street art can be beautiful, for sure. But a lot of graffiti is just scribbled words and names. It's weird for the article to suggest all graffiti is "street art." In fact, worst of all, I often see scribbled words and names added on top of real street art.
DoreenMichele 4y ago
The last suggestion is pretty bad. Interfering with an abusive relationship can make you a target of the abuser. Trying to intercede in such is really not something one should try to do casually, without having a good idea what you are doing. A lot of this strikes me as not unreasonable. Some people are for abolishing the police due to their track record that is rather unevenhanded when it comes to race. If you are in a community of color and are worried about police negatively impacting it, suggestions to physically go to the station to get the report you need rather than asking police to come to you is hardly extremist behavior. I also had someone "helpfully" call the cops on me while I was homeless because they were supposedly "concerned" about me. The result: I was warned to not walk in the bicycle lane on a stretch of road with no sidewalk on that side of the road, something lots or people routinely did. Thereafter, I had to go out of my way to walk on the other side of the road where there was a sidewalk so that I wouldn't get ticketed if the same cop happened to see me in that bike lane again. Thanks, asshole who was "concerned" and called the cops on me. Do you treat your mother or grandmother this way? "Oh, mom is walking somewhere that looks dangerous. Let's call the cops!!!"
Overtonwindow 4y ago
This kind of advice is what leads to the breakdown of communities...

26 points by wahnfrieden 4y ago

This was interesting to read, thanks. TBH some of the items do seem like they could be outright dangerous for the would-be-RP in many situations. The format could really use more nuance so people can make smarter decisions with the information. Like, maybe don't confront or even talk to your drunk neighbors about their music in situations like X, Y, Z. A lot of us aren't going to be gaslit into thinking that a given neighbor is magically going to be OK with personal interventions, just because we decided to act more accepting and upbeat starting now. Also for example the "don't cooperate with cops" one, that needs to be reworded or just broken out into a guide of its own--not all rallies or demonstrations are the same at the very least... A lot of the items are also based on psychological ideals held by given temperaments and cultural personality archetypes, so they are not shared by all of society and don't really need to be. In fact, acting as if one is a newly-converted community idealist is a good way to get social dichotomies to come out of the woodwork and fight against you from the start. There are many more creative ways to work around the street art issue than "just learn to like street art OR paint it over" for example. But maybe the best ones involve a framework that helps people better navigate their specific situation first. Overall I really like the idea, but get a bit of a feeling that it is going to keep some people feeling stuck doing the same things they were before. More new info, details, etc. would be so helpful--trying new things is what will work; the old stuff like the "resist at all costs" hyperbole is what keeps breaking down for communities that want to believe in community growth & success.

kevingadd 4y ago
IMO (as a left-leaning person politically) choosing not to call the cops is generally going to increase your danger level. It's a decision you make if you want to protect other people, because calling the cops to protect yourself or your own property rights might result in an innocent person getting injured or worse. I've called the cops before when my judgment call was that someone was in serious danger and they were the correct people to resolve it, but my bar for that is much higher than some other people I know. If I see someone looking 'suspicious' I generally mind my own business or might settle for talking to building security (not carrying guns around eager to use them) or something like that instead. This does mean that, for example, when someone tried the (locked) door on my apartment (running up and down the hallways looking for an unlocked door), I didn't call 911. I called building security instead, even though that event did make me feel unsafe.

rayiner 4y ago

This advice is almost uniformly awful, but this last one just puts women and children in danger: > Remember that police can escalate domestic violence situations. You can support friends and neighbors who are being victimized by abusers by offering them a place to stay, a ride to a safe location, or to watch their children. Utilize community resources like safe houses and hotlines. If you’re in this situation, call the police. This just happened in our neighborhood. The cops came and dragged the abusive guy off to jail where he belongs. Don’t risk becoming a statistic out of some misguided ideology.

8note 4y ago
There's no lack of times where somebody called the police, and the police stopped by and shot the caller. Either/or, you can become a statistic
- themodelplumber 4y ago
  No lack of times, but drastically different odds. What's possible is not the same as what's sometimes probable, and it's definitely not the same as what's very probable. So this do/don't call cops dichotomy is not reliable. It's pointless to argue over it & new ideas are needed.
ivraatiems 4y ago
First of all: Men can be victims of violent domestic incidents. Don't use "woman and children" here. However, I think you're right, in the circumstance where domestic abuse is ongoing in the moment. If there is physical violence happening, the police need to be called. If this is more of a "when he gets home he'll be so mad" situation, I think other resources are probably a good first step. Then a police report will need to be filed so a restraining order, etc., can be pursued.
- throwaway31122 4y ago
  As male who was previously a frequent victim of domestic violence, the cops are the fucking worst for this. I don't even normally have beef with the cops, and have predominantly had good interactions with them, but the system taught to police in the U.S., the Duluth Model, is broken beyond repair. It literally teaches them to assume the guilt of men in any domestic incident, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It's absolutely bullshit, a male domestic violence victim, especially one who is disadvantaged, can have their life turned upside down by someone calling the cops.

engineer_22 4y ago

My first impulse is refute the text of the article, since I disagree with a lot of what's stated... that's not interesting to anybody else, and I'm probably not the target audience anyway. So who is the target audience?

kevingadd 4y ago
People who want to avoid involving the police (since many US police departments are shoot-first-ask-questions-later) but still want to improve public safety.
- engineer_22 4y ago
  There's not been a police shooting in my city for many years, and I suspect it's similar in many other small cities in the USA. Are we talking about people in neighborhoods patrolled by officers of a different race? Are we talking about people who are or have been engaged in prohibited activity? Are we talking about big strong men who don't fear violence against themselves because they don't feel they're a target? Where's the nuance?
  - happytoexplain 4y ago
    We're talking about the generalized case, as per the article. It would be noble to try to derive dynamic advice based on variables, but probably not realistic. People either trust or distrust their local police based on the information available to them and their experiences, which may be limited, but we all still make forced judgement calls regardless.
    - engineer_22 4y ago
      I don't think that's right. In general we have police because they at some point were deemed necessary for public order. When was it generally agreed that police are detrimental to community life? EDIT: The top line is from theanarchistlibrary.org Who are the target audience of a publication like that? What kind of person reads the anarchist library, what do they have in common?

ivraatiems 4y ago

An interesting read, and I agree that most of the things on this list are a decent alternative to calling the cops. I think that there also needs to be a heuristic for when one should call the cops, though (because I don't believe, as an anarchist might, that state law enforcement is an inherently illegitimate thing to have, just because I don't like the American version). Here are some times when I would call the cops via 911 (e. g., come quickly, be prepared for something dangerous to happen): * A mugging, assault, or fight in progress. * A person brandishing a weapon - a knife or firearm, for instance. * Someone driving erratically (eg swerving, veering into incoming traffic) or hyper-aggressively (see above) * A break-in or property theft where a person is inside/nearby/would be at risk if seen Basically, any time there is an obvious, emergent, physical threat to myself or someone else for which reciprocal violence might be a necessary and valid response. For everything else, there are these resources, or the non-emergency number. Police are much less likely to respond in a hyper-aggressive way if you do not present the situation as an emergency.

ALittleLight 4y ago

Point 12 says you can support someone who is being abused by watching their children. I wonder how one brings this up. "Hey, are you going to be abused later? Need me to do some babysitting while that's happening?" I'm also reminded of the somewhat anarchist protest in Seattle called CHAZ or CHOP. They had nightly shootings and multiple people killed. CHAZ guards shot and killed a black teen who hadn't done anything and was just joyriding through the area at night.

happytoexplain 4y ago
You don't bring it up, you simply have relationships with people that includes child-watching. Friends and neighbors are resources to each other. Abused people absolutely take advantage of this. Your sarcasm is a little uncalled-for. Also, is your anecdote simply to summon the image of a killer upon the author? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the write-up, and it's something you could do with any ideological or political group.
- ALittleLight 4y ago
  My anecdote is the one time in my life I've experienced people try anarchy and it immediately degenerated into chaos, violence, and murder. I suspect that's the rule for anarchies. Regarding watching the children of the domestically abused - no. If I know someone well enough to watch their kids then I'm not going to just sit idly by while they are abused. I will contact the police, because I don't care if the abuser gets hurt, imprisoned, or killed - shouldn't have been abusing. If the police were magically off limits I would settle the problem directly - which, incidentally, is why rational people prefer legal systems with enforcement agents, so that they don't have to handle things by themselves and deal with the ensuing chaos and violence.
UtopiaPunk 4y ago
You check up on people close to you. If the situation at home is deteriorating, it's very valuable for someone to have a way to keep their kids safe. It can be as simple as telling their kids to go to the friend's house when they get off the school bus. Also, CHOP was chill. I got cookies, browsed the free library, and hung out in the park. Protesters watched the barricades and wouldn't let police in, but ambulances could come in if someone needed health services. I didn't live there, but I felt safe when I visited. It was very different on the ground than what was reported on the news. If you hated the ideas of CHOP, it looked like hell on Earth. If you found the ideas attractive, it was a brief grasp at something bold and beautiful. A word that describes both is "anarchy."

thekashifmalik 4y ago

> Street art is beautiful! Don’t report graffiti and other street artists. If you see work that includes fascistic or hate speech, paint over it yourself or with friends. Uhhhh this sounds like terrible advice. If someone is vandalizing my property, it's well within my rights to call the cops or deal with the criminals myself. Street art can be beautiful, but it can also be ugly or unwanted.

happytoexplain 4y ago
Somebody painting your personal property (which invokes the image of a home or point of sale shop) is a miniscule subset of all cases of anybody "seeing graffiti". Also, the author doesn't call into question your rights. I see this a lot: Being asked to do or even just consider something, and falling all the way back on rights as an angry retort, which is irrelevant to the request. He didn't say, "do this or I'll sue you."
chrismcb 4y ago
Some "street art"is beautiful. But most graffiti is just an eyesore. It is even worse when it is vandalizing a public at exhibit.

scarface74 4y ago

I definitely agree with number 3. My grandfather was a diabetic and I once saw my caring supportive grandfather become combative and acting like a drunk when his blood sugar was low. If the cops had been called instead of the paramedics, I can’t imagine in hind site what would have happened.

empthought 4y ago

> Encourage teachers, coworkers, and organizers to avoid inviting police into classrooms, workplaces, and public spaces. Because that's where shootings by police definitely occur... /s This is just anarchist LARPing hate-the-pigs rhetoric masquerading as concern for safety.

wahnfrieden 4y ago
Point is to avoid propagandizing, not to avoid violence directly. Your support of inviting cops into community spaces is simply bootlicking masquerading as reasonability
- D13Fd 4y ago
  >Your support of inviting cops into community spaces is simply bootlicking masquerading as reasonability There are communities that work with and support the police and communities that are adversarial to the police. Your "bootlicking" comment assumes everyone is adversarial to the police.
  - genewitch 4y ago
    they're adversarial to you. So, uh... what?
- empthought 4y ago
  The point per the web page is "safety." But I am not surprised at all that this claim is a lie that people don't even bother to defend.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ekianjo 4y ago

> Street art is beautiful! Don’t report graffiti and other street artists. If you see work that includes fascistic or hate speech, paint over it yourself or with friends. This reads like a joke. So is it OK if I draw dicks on the neighbors walls by using the pretense of Street Art?

D13Fd 4y ago
Street art can be beautiful, for sure. But a lot of graffiti is just scribbled words and names. It's weird for the article to suggest all graffiti is "street art." In fact, worst of all, I often see scribbled words and names added on top of real street art.

DoreenMichele 4y ago

The last suggestion is pretty bad. Interfering with an abusive relationship can make you a target of the abuser. Trying to intercede in such is really not something one should try to do casually, without having a good idea what you are doing. A lot of this strikes me as not unreasonable. Some people are for abolishing the police due to their track record that is rather unevenhanded when it comes to race. If you are in a community of color and are worried about police negatively impacting it, suggestions to physically go to the station to get the report you need rather than asking police to come to you is hardly extremist behavior. I also had someone "helpfully" call the cops on me while I was homeless because they were supposedly "concerned" about me. The result: I was warned to not walk in the bicycle lane on a stretch of road with no sidewalk on that side of the road, something lots or people routinely did. Thereafter, I had to go out of my way to walk on the other side of the road where there was a sidewalk so that I wouldn't get ticketed if the same cop happened to see me in that bike lane again. Thanks, asshole who was "concerned" and called the cops on me. Do you treat your mother or grandmother this way? "Oh, mom is walking somewhere that looks dangerous. Let's call the cops!!!"

Overtonwindow 4y ago

This kind of advice is what leads to the breakdown of communities...