5 ms·

> as if this sort of thing doesn't exist in other languages and stacks It doesn't. For example in the Java world and in the last 10 years there were only two

> as if this sort of thing doesn't exist in other languages and stacks It doesn't. For example in the Java world and in the last 10 years there were only two "frameworks". Just Spring and Oracle/Java EE Now two more have appeared (Quarkus and Micronaut) bringing the total number of frameworks to 4.

icedchai 4y ago
Sure, if you ignore Dropwizard and tons of other less popular java frameworks out there.
- kkapelon 4y ago
  Maybe I am missing something but Dropwizard is not a framework on its own but instead of collection of external and independently developed libraries
  - icedchai 4y ago
    Maybe you are? Yes, it integrates existing frameworks and libraries. In fact, the home page says "Dropwizard is a Java framework for developing ops-friendly, high-performance, RESTful web services."
    - kkapelon 4y ago
      While I would love to argue whether DropWizard is a framework or not there is no need for that. Just go to google trends and compare Spring and Dropwizard. Or look at https://www.jetbrains.com/lp/devecosystem-2021/java/ https://www.jetbrains.com/lp/devecosystem-2021/java/. Dropwizard doesn't even appear in the list of web frameworks. I mean, if you still believe that Java has as many frameworks as Javascript has (and had in the past) there is nothing I can say that will convince you.
      - icedchai 4y ago
        I've been using Java on and off since 1996. It absolutely has had a ton of frameworks over the years. Yes, I realize many of them are niche or no longer in use, but that doesn't mean there isn't a legacy application where you have to maintain 10 or 20 year old garbage. FYI, I despise both J2EE and Spring. (Maybe Spring Boot is okay.)
        lmm 4y ago
        Spring Boot is recapitulating the worst parts of old (like, 3.0-era) Spring. It's the biggest step backwards in programming history since... I actually can't think of anything worse.
kelnos 4y ago
Is the argument here that there are too many JS frameworks, or that the complexity of the frameworks themselves tends to grow over time? If the former, totally agree. If the latter, Java frameworks are plenty complicated. Also not sure how you've missed a lot of other frameworks; Spring and J2EE are certainly not the only ones that have been around for 10+ years. Dropwizard, Vert.x, akka-http, GWT, Play... just to name a few.
- kkapelon 4y ago
  The argument is that I could learn Spring in 2002, find a Job then I could learn Spring in 2008 and find a job and then I could learn Spring in 2013 and find a job and then learn Spring in 2018 and find a job and then learn Spring in 2023 and find a job. Spring IS complex, but you learn it once and you are done with it.
  - intrasight 4y ago
    Or learn Cobol in 1965, find a job. Learn Cobol in 2022, find a job. Or Fortran - which I started using in 1983. Or C# (2000 for me) I think the key distinction is that these languages and libraries evolve over time.
  - agos 4y ago
    this is really useful if you know in advance which framework is going to stay around twenty years. If you invested in GWT...
dpistole 4y ago
I'm not a java man but a quick google leads to a lot of "10 java frameworks you should know", "17 popular java frameworks", and a "list of java frameworks" on Wikipedia that's dozens long. Frontend wise it seems similar at a glance, in that you could use react for the last 10 years and be fine. Or you could jump from react to vue to svelte and make life hard for yourself.
- kkapelon 4y ago
  I looked at some of the articles you mention and they are completely clueless They include stuff like - Hibernate - this is just an ORM - JHipster - this is just opinionated Spring - mybatis - again ORM - Grails - > This is Groovy and not Java - Play -> This is Scala primary - Primefaces -> an implementation of Oracle/JavaEE I think you get the idea. I am actually amazed at who is the target audience of this kind of blog posts.
  - dpistole 4y ago
    Makes sense, probably just ad click driving spam page, appreciate the info :) I wonder how much of people being burnout on "front end frameworks" is because of "17 must know javascript frameworks" articles akin to the JAVA stuff at the top of google.
wruza 4y ago
Vaadin? GWT? Not a java guy, may miss some distinctions. As someone who came into webdev only recently with a long experience in just-development, it feels like there is no problem with frontend at all. The problem is that the frontend industry chose the worst perverted defaults and those defaults pay the most money. That’s the whole drama. It’s just a “five monkeys experiment” sort of situation.

icedchai 4y ago

Sure, if you ignore Dropwizard and tons of other less popular java frameworks out there.

kkapelon 4y ago
Maybe I am missing something but Dropwizard is not a framework on its own but instead of collection of external and independently developed libraries
- icedchai 4y ago
  Maybe you are? Yes, it integrates existing frameworks and libraries. In fact, the home page says "Dropwizard is a Java framework for developing ops-friendly, high-performance, RESTful web services."
  - kkapelon 4y ago
    While I would love to argue whether DropWizard is a framework or not there is no need for that. Just go to google trends and compare Spring and Dropwizard. Or look at https://www.jetbrains.com/lp/devecosystem-2021/java/ https://www.jetbrains.com/lp/devecosystem-2021/java/. Dropwizard doesn't even appear in the list of web frameworks. I mean, if you still believe that Java has as many frameworks as Javascript has (and had in the past) there is nothing I can say that will convince you.
    - icedchai 4y ago
      I've been using Java on and off since 1996. It absolutely has had a ton of frameworks over the years. Yes, I realize many of them are niche or no longer in use, but that doesn't mean there isn't a legacy application where you have to maintain 10 or 20 year old garbage. FYI, I despise both J2EE and Spring. (Maybe Spring Boot is okay.)
      - lmm 4y ago
        Spring Boot is recapitulating the worst parts of old (like, 3.0-era) Spring. It's the biggest step backwards in programming history since... I actually can't think of anything worse.

kelnos 4y ago

Is the argument here that there are too many JS frameworks, or that the complexity of the frameworks themselves tends to grow over time? If the former, totally agree. If the latter, Java frameworks are plenty complicated. Also not sure how you've missed a lot of other frameworks; Spring and J2EE are certainly not the only ones that have been around for 10+ years. Dropwizard, Vert.x, akka-http, GWT, Play... just to name a few.

kkapelon 4y ago
The argument is that I could learn Spring in 2002, find a Job then I could learn Spring in 2008 and find a job and then I could learn Spring in 2013 and find a job and then learn Spring in 2018 and find a job and then learn Spring in 2023 and find a job. Spring IS complex, but you learn it once and you are done with it.
- intrasight 4y ago
  Or learn Cobol in 1965, find a job. Learn Cobol in 2022, find a job. Or Fortran - which I started using in 1983. Or C# (2000 for me) I think the key distinction is that these languages and libraries evolve over time.
- agos 4y ago
  this is really useful if you know in advance which framework is going to stay around twenty years. If you invested in GWT...

dpistole 4y ago

I'm not a java man but a quick google leads to a lot of "10 java frameworks you should know", "17 popular java frameworks", and a "list of java frameworks" on Wikipedia that's dozens long. Frontend wise it seems similar at a glance, in that you could use react for the last 10 years and be fine. Or you could jump from react to vue to svelte and make life hard for yourself.

kkapelon 4y ago
I looked at some of the articles you mention and they are completely clueless They include stuff like - Hibernate - this is just an ORM - JHipster - this is just opinionated Spring - mybatis - again ORM - Grails - > This is Groovy and not Java - Play -> This is Scala primary - Primefaces -> an implementation of Oracle/JavaEE I think you get the idea. I am actually amazed at who is the target audience of this kind of blog posts.
- dpistole 4y ago
  Makes sense, probably just ad click driving spam page, appreciate the info :) I wonder how much of people being burnout on "front end frameworks" is because of "17 must know javascript frameworks" articles akin to the JAVA stuff at the top of google.

wruza 4y ago

Vaadin? GWT? Not a java guy, may miss some distinctions. As someone who came into webdev only recently with a long experience in just-development, it feels like there is no problem with frontend at all. The problem is that the frontend industry chose the worst perverted defaults and those defaults pay the most money. That’s the whole drama. It’s just a “five monkeys experiment” sort of situation.