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> It’s also not the case that any current browser is so bad that the web is better off without it. But it is. Safari on IOS is either missing or badly impleme

> It’s also not the case that any current browser is so bad that the web is better off without it. But it is. Safari on IOS is either missing or badly implements every system that lets web apps compete with system apps. It's totally impossible to use something other than safari on IOS as well, which basically means apple is able to force a very significant amount of web traffic into their browser and basically lock out any feature the choose. That is bad for the web. Additionally, I think you're mistaken on the performance crown. Firefox made big gains years ago but chrome has always managed to perform better at most tasks despite those gains. Maybe if you were running really low on ram Firefox is the faster option? That's not your typical use case though. I use Firefox regardless. I way value their not crippling AdBlock over chrome and would encourage everyone to use it despite speed issues.

acdha 4y ago
Can you be specific about what exact features you think are so critical that the web would be better off without Safari? For example, if you've already retracted the claim down to “letting iOS users use PWAs which use more app-like features” it's clearly not true because most people do not use PWAs at all, even on Android, and there are many PWAs which work just fine. > Additionally, I think you're mistaken on the performance crown. Firefox made big gains years ago but chrome has always managed to perform better at most tasks despite those gains. This always comes down to which specific things you benchmark. All I can say is that I use Chrome, Edge, Firefox, and Safari on macOS, iOS, and Windows and it's exceedingly uncommon for Chrome/Edge to feel faster but I do notice their memory impact on the rest of the system. For battery life, Safari is hands down the winner followed by Firefox and then, distantly, the Chromium browsers.
- bioemerl 4y ago
  https://wpt.fyi/results/ https://wpt.fyi/results/
  - acdha 4y ago
    So which specific features are that critical — for example, do you think most app developers can't work without the battery status API (or that users don't have a vested privacy concern)? I ask because when you drill into things like that there are a lot of numbers which look big until you realize that there are something like 57 tests for a non-standard API which is not broadly used even on the browsers which do support it.
    - bioemerl 4y ago
      Every feature has the potential to jump out and be critical, even ones that don't appear to be. Every time I try to use Safari to create something that goes beyond "display text" it's a new adventure in bugs and unsupported features that work in the other browsers. It's not one of those things you can sit and name, it's a 90/10 issue, and the margins are critical even though they appear small. Bugs surrounding drag and drop is what lead me to abandon all hope of supporting the browser some months ago.
      - acdha 4y ago
        > Every time I try to use Safari to create something that goes beyond "display text" it's a new adventure in bugs and unsupported features that work in the other browsers. Do you have any examples which aren't so vague? The only times I've encountered this problem with other developers has been when they were using lots of Chrome-only features and put off testing in other browsers; when starting development in Firefox or Safari the most common case since around the early 2000s has been that everything works in the other two browsers with minimal effort.
      - alwillis 4y ago
        > Every time I try to use Safari to create something that goes beyond "display text" it's a new adventure in bugs and unsupported features that work in the other browsers. Being hyperbolic doesn't help your case; it just looks like you're bashing WebKit because it's from Apple. And while you may have had a bad experience back in the day or don't like that Apple chooses not to implement esoteric or Chrome-only features, that doesn't mean that Safari sucks now. As I pointed out earlier in the thread [1], Apple has done a great job lately implementing features that they, Google, Mozilla and Microsoft have agreed should be implemented and interoperable and have W3C/WHATWG specifications. Every browser has bugs; the bug trackers for WebKit, Mozilla and Google are public, so we can actually see what they are. Like the other browser makers, Apple publishes its bug fixes when a new version of WebKit is released. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33991256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33991256
vehemenz 4y ago
iOS Safari locking out features is not inherently good or bad. Yes, it holds back further adoption of cutting edge features that some developers would like but that the average person doesn't care about. However, it also holds back features that would increase the scope of what the web is, including more features that allow bad faith operators to track and monetize our data.

acdha 4y ago

Can you be specific about what exact features you think are so critical that the web would be better off without Safari? For example, if you've already retracted the claim down to “letting iOS users use PWAs which use more app-like features” it's clearly not true because most people do not use PWAs at all, even on Android, and there are many PWAs which work just fine. > Additionally, I think you're mistaken on the performance crown. Firefox made big gains years ago but chrome has always managed to perform better at most tasks despite those gains. This always comes down to which specific things you benchmark. All I can say is that I use Chrome, Edge, Firefox, and Safari on macOS, iOS, and Windows and it's exceedingly uncommon for Chrome/Edge to feel faster but I do notice their memory impact on the rest of the system. For battery life, Safari is hands down the winner followed by Firefox and then, distantly, the Chromium browsers.

bioemerl 4y ago
https://wpt.fyi/results/ https://wpt.fyi/results/
- acdha 4y ago
  So which specific features are that critical — for example, do you think most app developers can't work without the battery status API (or that users don't have a vested privacy concern)? I ask because when you drill into things like that there are a lot of numbers which look big until you realize that there are something like 57 tests for a non-standard API which is not broadly used even on the browsers which do support it.
  - bioemerl 4y ago
    Every feature has the potential to jump out and be critical, even ones that don't appear to be. Every time I try to use Safari to create something that goes beyond "display text" it's a new adventure in bugs and unsupported features that work in the other browsers. It's not one of those things you can sit and name, it's a 90/10 issue, and the margins are critical even though they appear small. Bugs surrounding drag and drop is what lead me to abandon all hope of supporting the browser some months ago.
    - acdha 4y ago
      > Every time I try to use Safari to create something that goes beyond "display text" it's a new adventure in bugs and unsupported features that work in the other browsers. Do you have any examples which aren't so vague? The only times I've encountered this problem with other developers has been when they were using lots of Chrome-only features and put off testing in other browsers; when starting development in Firefox or Safari the most common case since around the early 2000s has been that everything works in the other two browsers with minimal effort.
    - alwillis 4y ago
      > Every time I try to use Safari to create something that goes beyond "display text" it's a new adventure in bugs and unsupported features that work in the other browsers. Being hyperbolic doesn't help your case; it just looks like you're bashing WebKit because it's from Apple. And while you may have had a bad experience back in the day or don't like that Apple chooses not to implement esoteric or Chrome-only features, that doesn't mean that Safari sucks now. As I pointed out earlier in the thread [1], Apple has done a great job lately implementing features that they, Google, Mozilla and Microsoft have agreed should be implemented and interoperable and have W3C/WHATWG specifications. Every browser has bugs; the bug trackers for WebKit, Mozilla and Google are public, so we can actually see what they are. Like the other browser makers, Apple publishes its bug fixes when a new version of WebKit is released. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33991256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33991256

vehemenz 4y ago

iOS Safari locking out features is not inherently good or bad. Yes, it holds back further adoption of cutting edge features that some developers would like but that the average person doesn't care about. However, it also holds back features that would increase the scope of what the web is, including more features that allow bad faith operators to track and monetize our data.