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> Mercedes is a real car company with real engineers and a gold-standard reputation to maintain. Not only that, but they have a quality reputation to uphold wi

> Mercedes is a real car company with real engineers and a gold-standard reputation to maintain. Not only that, but they have a quality reputation to uphold with their domestic (German) and regional (European) market. Your average discerning German car buyer (i.e. the sort who has a Porsche 911, or a higher-end Audi/BMW/Merc) in their garage will swiftly tell you about numerous problems with the Tesla before they've even sat in it. Panel gaps, for example. They mean a lot to your average discerning German, and your average Tesla has them by the bucket load. In fact, the German in-joke is that the reason Tesla built a factory in Germany is so that the Germans could (try to) teach them how to fix the panel gaps. :-)

sho_hn 4y ago
> In fact, the German in-joke is that the reason Tesla built a factory in Germany is so that the Germans could (try to) teach them how to fix the panel gaps. :-) Speaking more seriously on that front, there's been the acquihire of Grohmann Engineering.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>so that the Germans could (try to) teach them how to fix the panel gaps Not a Tesla owner or fan but I have a question that's really bugging me now: Which customers really care about panel gaps? Do average joes, SUV driving soccer moms or suburban white collar workers go around with a ruler measuring their panel gaps with others like "yeah your Tesla is cool and all, but sorry, my Audi A5 has much tighter panel gaps which is what matters most you know"? When has the panel gap became "the benchmark" indicative of car quality beyond the body shell? Like, if the panel gaps are the only thing you can find wrong in a car, then it must be a really really good car, right? Is there any proven evidence that the panel gaps corelate to quality and reliability of the rest of the car, or is it just a myth of the car enthusiasts community that got spread around and went too far? I get it, some Tesla are unreliable and built poorly, but it's not because they have big panel gaps. The reverse is also true for many cars, so this isn't a rule. Sure, if you want to measure and compare panel gaps, then by all means go ahead and measure panel gaps, but please don't pretend they mean anything more than that, and that it's somehow an indicative for the car's overall quality and reliability, because so far there hasn't been any proof of this correlation.
- pookeh 4y ago
  The super rich buy supercars for the increase in their own perceived value (i.e wow look how rich this dude is) The average joe buys a car because of the value it gets them (because every dollar matters)
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Umm, except the cars the average joe buys depreciate in value, while the supercars the rich buy usually apreciate in value, kind of like art, so wouldn't it make more sense that panel gaps are more important for that market? Does having tighter panel gaps help with the resale value for the average joes?
    - shuckles 4y ago
      This isn’t true. Your average super car does not appreciate in value when you consider factors like maintenance and the fact that you have to buy a bunch of other garbage to even be put on the delivery list for a desirable car’s production. For example, actually buying a top spec 911 isn’t feasible if you don’t have a good relationship with your dealer. Notwithstanding the fact that the market for super cars is nothing like the market for Teslas or 5ers.
    - nluken 4y ago
      Supercars absolutely depreciate in value minus select limited releases (which holds true for non-supercars as well). Look at standard Lamborghini Gallardos, Ferrari F430s/458s, and Aston Martins of any model and you will see that some of these cars are worth less than half what their original buyers paid for them.
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        Fair point, that was a bad example on my end. Edited. But my point stands, that panel gap as a benchmark alone is no measure of quality or any other metric.
  - 4y ago
heipei 4y ago
> In fact, the German in-joke is that the reason Tesla built a factory in Germany is so that the Germans could (try to) teach them how to fix the panel gaps. :-) As a German I can certainly say that folks here really pay attention to where cars are manufactured. Tesla Model Y's available on various platforms are boldly advertised as "Manufactured in Grünheide". At the same time people are aware that some domestic models (such as the Mercedes EQS SUV) are solely manufactured in the US and then shipped over, which are sometimes conceived as lower quality as a result.
elorant 4y ago
Fuck panel gaps. Just look at the quality of the interior. You’re paying 100k for a car that has worse quality than a Ford. Everything is plastic, there are no button knobs anywhere, no panel in front of the driver, the leather on the seats doesn’t feel like leather etc. I mean I get it that half the price of the car is in batteries and R&D, but still you can’t even compare it to a 50k Volvo. It’s just crap. And now that the big manufacturers are moving into electric cars Tesla’s got a lot of serious completion to face from companies who know how to treat a customer who's paying big bucks.
- xxpor 4y ago
  If you're paying 100k for a model 3, you're getting screwed.
- cutenewt 4y ago
  I was seriously considering a Model 3 for my new car, but I'm so glad I passed. On the Model 3 subrreddit there are endless post about reliability including ones I never thought would be an issue. Some recent ones include driver side mirror housing falling off and snowing entering the trunk compartment.
  - sixQuarks 4y ago
    Have you looked at forums for other cars? There’s tons of complaints for every model. I’ve had my model 3 for 5 years with zero issues.
    - brewdad 4y ago
      I can't recall mirrors falling off or trunks so poorly sealed as to allow snow inside with other car makers. Maybe on a Yugo but nothing that purports to be anything better than a cheap as possible econobox.
      - wfme 4y ago
        A quick google reveals similar wing mirror issues with VW [0] and BMW [1]. [0] https://www.speakev.com/threads/wing-mirror-glass-fell-off.147103/ https://www.speakev.com/threads/wing-mirror-glass-fell-off.1... [1] https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=79640 https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=79640
purpleblue 4y ago
I currently have a Tesla Model Y and a Porsche Macan. The Macan feels more luxurious, but the Model Y is easier to drive because of its unearthly acceleration. The biggest thing that Tesla got right besides the acceleration is the value-add features like Sentry mode, the tight integration with the phone, the things like Walk-away locking (although I would very much prefer it lock closer to my car because it's about 40-60 ft away when it locks and it makes me nervous). The build quality is cheaper, the sound system sucks, and I generally despise how many things are tied to the screen. I want buttons and knobs for the air system, to have to hunt for that on the screen is very dangerous, I hate it. The Porsche feels more luxurious but it's mindblowing how they get so many things wrong. The dashboard is much too complicated with a lot of redundant buttons. Something as simple as there's no place to put my phone, there's only extremely awkward locations that cause my phone to fly around the car when I go around any turn, which is so dumb in 2022. The backup camera has way too narrow field of view, I've almost backed into 2 cars in parking lots, something the Tesla got right. At least they have Apple Carplay, but activating it is extremely annoying. I also have BMWs before (X3 and X6) and overall my favorite car of all time is the X6.
- palata 4y ago
  > the things like Walk-away locking I think it's actually quite worse in terms of security, as you can use some kind of range extender to pretend that the key is close and open (or even start?) the car.
- Melatonic 4y ago
  Honestly I do not get how they go away with so much touchscreen - that should be illegal honestly. You very quickly learn the buttons and knobs in your car for basic activities and do not even need to look. Not to mention a single point of failure with that touchscreen!
  - mikeryan 4y ago
    This reminds me of Blackberry saying “enterprise users need a real keyboard” when the iPhone was launched. Which isn’t to say you’re wrong, a driving experience isn’t the same, but I’m sure that experience was the guiding principle behind Tesla going full touchscreen. That being said apple put a lot of work on the keyboard experience with haptics and fuzzy hit design to make it as functional as it is. I’m not sure Tesla has done the same level of usability work.
pytonslange 4y ago
> In fact, the German in-joke is that the reason Tesla built a factory in Germany is so that the Germans could (try to) teach them how to fix the panel gaps. :-) Having owned model Ys made in both China and Germany, I can tell you that the germans have not succeeded. The made in China Y was 100% no issues, while the German one looks like it has been in a collision already. Anecdotal, but this seems to be the pattern with cars delivered to Europe.
TheHappyOddish 4y ago
> Your average discerning German car buyer I've got plenty of descriptive words for the type of person you described, "discerning" isn't one of them.

sho_hn 4y ago

> In fact, the German in-joke is that the reason Tesla built a factory in Germany is so that the Germans could (try to) teach them how to fix the panel gaps. :-) Speaking more seriously on that front, there's been the acquihire of Grohmann Engineering.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

>so that the Germans could (try to) teach them how to fix the panel gaps Not a Tesla owner or fan but I have a question that's really bugging me now: Which customers really care about panel gaps? Do average joes, SUV driving soccer moms or suburban white collar workers go around with a ruler measuring their panel gaps with others like "yeah your Tesla is cool and all, but sorry, my Audi A5 has much tighter panel gaps which is what matters most you know"? When has the panel gap became "the benchmark" indicative of car quality beyond the body shell? Like, if the panel gaps are the only thing you can find wrong in a car, then it must be a really really good car, right? Is there any proven evidence that the panel gaps corelate to quality and reliability of the rest of the car, or is it just a myth of the car enthusiasts community that got spread around and went too far? I get it, some Tesla are unreliable and built poorly, but it's not because they have big panel gaps. The reverse is also true for many cars, so this isn't a rule. Sure, if you want to measure and compare panel gaps, then by all means go ahead and measure panel gaps, but please don't pretend they mean anything more than that, and that it's somehow an indicative for the car's overall quality and reliability, because so far there hasn't been any proof of this correlation.

pookeh 4y ago
The super rich buy supercars for the increase in their own perceived value (i.e wow look how rich this dude is) The average joe buys a car because of the value it gets them (because every dollar matters)
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Umm, except the cars the average joe buys depreciate in value, while the supercars the rich buy usually apreciate in value, kind of like art, so wouldn't it make more sense that panel gaps are more important for that market? Does having tighter panel gaps help with the resale value for the average joes?
  - shuckles 4y ago
    This isn’t true. Your average super car does not appreciate in value when you consider factors like maintenance and the fact that you have to buy a bunch of other garbage to even be put on the delivery list for a desirable car’s production. For example, actually buying a top spec 911 isn’t feasible if you don’t have a good relationship with your dealer. Notwithstanding the fact that the market for super cars is nothing like the market for Teslas or 5ers.
  - nluken 4y ago
    Supercars absolutely depreciate in value minus select limited releases (which holds true for non-supercars as well). Look at standard Lamborghini Gallardos, Ferrari F430s/458s, and Aston Martins of any model and you will see that some of these cars are worth less than half what their original buyers paid for them.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      Fair point, that was a bad example on my end. Edited. But my point stands, that panel gap as a benchmark alone is no measure of quality or any other metric.
- 4y ago

heipei 4y ago

> In fact, the German in-joke is that the reason Tesla built a factory in Germany is so that the Germans could (try to) teach them how to fix the panel gaps. :-) As a German I can certainly say that folks here really pay attention to where cars are manufactured. Tesla Model Y's available on various platforms are boldly advertised as "Manufactured in Grünheide". At the same time people are aware that some domestic models (such as the Mercedes EQS SUV) are solely manufactured in the US and then shipped over, which are sometimes conceived as lower quality as a result.

elorant 4y ago

Fuck panel gaps. Just look at the quality of the interior. You’re paying 100k for a car that has worse quality than a Ford. Everything is plastic, there are no button knobs anywhere, no panel in front of the driver, the leather on the seats doesn’t feel like leather etc. I mean I get it that half the price of the car is in batteries and R&D, but still you can’t even compare it to a 50k Volvo. It’s just crap. And now that the big manufacturers are moving into electric cars Tesla’s got a lot of serious completion to face from companies who know how to treat a customer who's paying big bucks.

xxpor 4y ago
If you're paying 100k for a model 3, you're getting screwed.
cutenewt 4y ago
I was seriously considering a Model 3 for my new car, but I'm so glad I passed. On the Model 3 subrreddit there are endless post about reliability including ones I never thought would be an issue. Some recent ones include driver side mirror housing falling off and snowing entering the trunk compartment.
- sixQuarks 4y ago
  Have you looked at forums for other cars? There’s tons of complaints for every model. I’ve had my model 3 for 5 years with zero issues.
  - brewdad 4y ago
    I can't recall mirrors falling off or trunks so poorly sealed as to allow snow inside with other car makers. Maybe on a Yugo but nothing that purports to be anything better than a cheap as possible econobox.
    - wfme 4y ago
      A quick google reveals similar wing mirror issues with VW [0] and BMW [1]. [0] https://www.speakev.com/threads/wing-mirror-glass-fell-off.147103/ https://www.speakev.com/threads/wing-mirror-glass-fell-off.1... [1] https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=79640 https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=79640

purpleblue 4y ago

I currently have a Tesla Model Y and a Porsche Macan. The Macan feels more luxurious, but the Model Y is easier to drive because of its unearthly acceleration. The biggest thing that Tesla got right besides the acceleration is the value-add features like Sentry mode, the tight integration with the phone, the things like Walk-away locking (although I would very much prefer it lock closer to my car because it's about 40-60 ft away when it locks and it makes me nervous). The build quality is cheaper, the sound system sucks, and I generally despise how many things are tied to the screen. I want buttons and knobs for the air system, to have to hunt for that on the screen is very dangerous, I hate it. The Porsche feels more luxurious but it's mindblowing how they get so many things wrong. The dashboard is much too complicated with a lot of redundant buttons. Something as simple as there's no place to put my phone, there's only extremely awkward locations that cause my phone to fly around the car when I go around any turn, which is so dumb in 2022. The backup camera has way too narrow field of view, I've almost backed into 2 cars in parking lots, something the Tesla got right. At least they have Apple Carplay, but activating it is extremely annoying. I also have BMWs before (X3 and X6) and overall my favorite car of all time is the X6.

palata 4y ago
> the things like Walk-away locking I think it's actually quite worse in terms of security, as you can use some kind of range extender to pretend that the key is close and open (or even start?) the car.
Melatonic 4y ago
Honestly I do not get how they go away with so much touchscreen - that should be illegal honestly. You very quickly learn the buttons and knobs in your car for basic activities and do not even need to look. Not to mention a single point of failure with that touchscreen!
- mikeryan 4y ago
  This reminds me of Blackberry saying “enterprise users need a real keyboard” when the iPhone was launched. Which isn’t to say you’re wrong, a driving experience isn’t the same, but I’m sure that experience was the guiding principle behind Tesla going full touchscreen. That being said apple put a lot of work on the keyboard experience with haptics and fuzzy hit design to make it as functional as it is. I’m not sure Tesla has done the same level of usability work.

pytonslange 4y ago

> In fact, the German in-joke is that the reason Tesla built a factory in Germany is so that the Germans could (try to) teach them how to fix the panel gaps. :-) Having owned model Ys made in both China and Germany, I can tell you that the germans have not succeeded. The made in China Y was 100% no issues, while the German one looks like it has been in a collision already. Anecdotal, but this seems to be the pattern with cars delivered to Europe.

TheHappyOddish 4y ago

> Your average discerning German car buyer I've got plenty of descriptive words for the type of person you described, "discerning" isn't one of them.