15 ms·

Min: A fast, minimal browser that protects your privacy

188 points by aaossa 4y ago

nalekberov 4y ago
Browser running in browser, not bad, not bad at all.
xnacly 4y ago
A browser in electron? At this point just use chromium - makes no difference. Anyway, use firefox or librewolf. Stop enabling the chromium monopoly!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  The advantage of Min would be the UI, which I find quite appealing myself.
  - iHateStylo 4y ago
    One might argue this should be a fork of Chromium, not Electron. Chromium comes with native tabs and a bunch of other useful parts, without the security issues that Electron exposes.
    - nateb2022 4y ago
      This isn't a fork of Electron. It is an Electron-based app, and as such the Electron project maintains the core functionality of the browser and Min just presents a unified interface and feature set.
      - DoctorOW 4y ago
        They didn't say "fork of Electron", rather Electron is essentially "Chromium - browser UI" so they are saying there is a simplification to be made in an app that is "Chromium - browser UI + browser UI"
        jefftk 4y ago
        > They didn't say "fork of Electron" Flagging that the phrase "this should be a fork of Chromium, not Electron" is ambiguous between "this shouldn't be a fork of Electron" and "this shouldn't be Electron".
        nebulous1 4y ago
        The phrasing is ambiguous, I agree. However, as forking Electron to make Min wouldn't make any sense, and the replier knew this, reading it to mean that seems like a mistake to me. The fact is that it can be very difficult to write things that aren't ambiguous at some level (albeit that isn't the case here), so the reader has to make a good-faith effort to understand.
        Wowfunhappy 4y ago
        Fwiw, I read it the same way as nateb2022 at first. It took a second read to realize there was another interpretation. This is why writing is hard!
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - calny 4y ago
      > One might argue this should be a fork of Chromium, not Electron. Fair enough point. One reason it's Electron, I assume, is that it's much easier for typical developers to build than forking Chromium. I've been there. I've hacked at building a touchless-controlled browser that uses hand gesture and speech recognition to interact with the web. I can cobble something basic together in Electron, but it's much more intensive to get off the ground forking Chromium (though you're right the native tabs and useful parts would be helpful). > without the security issues that Electron exposes. Another reasonable point. For reference, here's an overview of security from Electron itself.[1] Security issues are one reason I haven't pursued the touchless browser more actively. I don't know if it's a dealbreaker, but it's not my area of expertise and I'd need to get seriously up to speed before releasing anything. From a glance, it does look like Min is trying to follow good security practices, such as having BrowserView webPreferences default to "nodeIntegration: false", "contextIsolation: true", etc.[2] And in the issues the maintainers seem aware of security issues, eg: > Making internal pages have the same privileges as the browser UI would be nice, although it's kind of difficult to implement. You could add nodeintegration to the webview tag, but I think there's a pretty big risk of accidentaly loading a regular webpage with nodeintegration enabled if we do that, which would be bad.[3] Ideally there wouldn't be such a large Chromium (and Chromium-based) monopoly on browsers, but overall I'm still glad to see projects like this trying to create different UI options. [1] https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/tutorial/security https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/tutorial/security [2] https://github.com/minbrowser/min/blob/7aba03fb645334366f9ec71867e36fc6fbf4ee15/main/viewManager.js#L9 https://github.com/minbrowser/min/blob/7aba03fb645334366f9ec... [3] https://github.com/minbrowser/min/issues/554#issuecomment-386829195 https://github.com/minbrowser/min/issues/554#issuecomment-38...
  - terminal_d 4y ago
    Check out r/firefoxcss on reddit.
  - stusmall 4y ago
    I wouldn't be surprised if you could find a add-on to get close to that. I used one for Firefox in the late 00s that gave a similar minimal effect, just not as extreme. Today browsers are one of the most important pieces of security software on our machine. They have a huge surface area, act as a sandbox for gobs of untrusted code and many of us conduct our most sensitive work in them (online banking etc). I'd be hesitant to use any browser that doesn't have the team behind it to quickly manage threats and maintain high quality code.
    - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
      Sadly, modern browsers don't allow add-ons to significantly alter the UI, so you'd never see an extension like this today. You can do some neat stuff with userchrome in Firefox (not as an add-on) but it'll break after basically every update. There's no infrastructure in place to update the userchrome in sync with the browser, and Mozilla appears to be hostile towards the whole feature. There are decent reasons for all of this, but it means the only way to experiment is to basically make your own app, as Min did.
  - black7375 4y ago
    Firefox's design is more custom than you think. https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix/wiki/Show-Off-Your-Config https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix/wiki/Show-Off-Yo... https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix/pull/511 https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix/pull/511
- d12bb 4y ago
  > Anyway, use firefox or librewolf. Stop enabling the chromium monopoly! Or Safari of course, it's really a great browser if one's on the Mac.
  - Terretta 4y ago
    > Or Safari of course, it's really a great browser if one's on the Mac. The venerable iCab or new Orion from Kagi shows what's possible here. https://www.icab.de/ https://www.icab.de/ https://browser.kagi.com/ https://browser.kagi.com/ Kagi's Orion runs Firefox and Chrome extensions, including on iOS, and of course works with Kagi search, which is enough better that it's worth switching from Google/Bing/DDG. --- EDIT to add, on iCab, it's been updated as of 2020, which unfortunately finally dropped the legacy Macs, but does support modern filter lists: iCab 6.0 (September, 28th 2020) iCab 6.0 is completely rewritten, therefore there’re many new features and existing many old features have changed. The new release uses the newer modern web engine of the macOS which is much faster and smoother than the classic engine that was used by older iCab releases. It also supports more web technologies. Because the modern web engine had too many limitations under macOS 10.12 and older, the minimum macOS release for the new version of iCab is therefore macOS 10.13. Older macOS releases are no longer supported. This has the advantage that iCab can now rely on many native macOS features which are only available in newer macOS releases. iCab now uses the native „Tabs“ feature of the macOS, so the tabs in iCab will now behave just as the Tabs in all other Apps using the native Tabs feature (like Safari Mail, the Finder etc). All the capabilities of the macOS to manage tabs are fully available in iCab as well. iCab is now using the native filter capabilities of the modern web engine of the macOS. Therefore the filter manager is completely new. The new filter manager supports the popular filter lists from AdBlock Plus, Easylist, uBlock and compatible. The filter manager window provides a few links to web sites where you can find these filter lists. using the „Add“ or „Subscribe“ links on these sites can directly import these filter lists, but you can also simply download these lists into a file and then use the „import“ feature of the Filter Manager to import these files. iCab 6.0 supports syncing of tabs, bookmarks, reading list, filters and search engine via iCloud. The iCloud sync is compatible to iCab Mobile for the iOS platform, so you can now sync all this data between iCab for the Mac and iCab Mobile for the iOS as well. The new web engine provides more control over audio and video playback. It is possible to immediately stop all audio and video playback with a certain menu command. But it can also make sure that audio and video playback only occurs on the active tab. Modules of the module manager can be put into the status bar, so these modules are directly accessible very fast and comfortably. The App supports private tabs which do not save any private data (Cookies, Caches etc). Private tabs are marked with a red border around the address field. And much more
- nothrowaways 4y ago
  Was my first reaction too.
- deagle50 4y ago
  +1 for librewolf (and arkenfox user.js). I just wish RFP didn't force 60hz rendering as have a 120hz MBP with 144hz external monitors...
- Kalium 4y ago
  On the contrary, it makes a significant difference vs Chromium. Using Electron means having jettisoned a number of security protections that Chromium offers while exposing the system to the attacks those are designed to stop. In design terms, this is a wonderful, beautiful, laudable project in pursuit of a great purity of vision. In security terms, this is an exercise in recklessness. It's irresponsible to even suggest that people should try using it.
  - smaddock 4y ago
    Can you elaborate on which security protections are not used by Electron, and by extension Min?
    - Kalium 4y ago
      https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/tutorial/security https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/tutorial/security This seems like a good start to understanding Electron security and why using it to do what the documentation expressly states is unwise might be less than optimal.
      - maria2 4y ago
        Can you give a specific example of what is wrong with Min's security configuration, assuming it is following Electron best practices. Asserting that the security model is bad and linking to Electron's security tutorial is not helpful.
        Kalium 4y ago
        For my own part, I find the introduction that specifically warns that Electron is not a web browser and should not be trusted to handle potentially malicious code from over a network to be clear enough. I understand that this is an opinion that not everyone will share. For a single specific example, look at the information on permissions and compare to how min handles them. I also see no functionality that attempts to determine if code is malicious or not. Chrome does have measures in it to do this. That said, I need to be clear. The matter at hand is not a matter of mere configuration and cannot be addressed by better configuration of Electron. Chromium was designed and built to run in a very hostile context. Electron has been built to run in a much more trustworthy context. There is no amount of configuration that will turn the latter into the former because it is not purely a difference of configuration. Electron's security model is not bad in any absolute sense. It's designed for a particular context and set of scenarios. Dropping it into a very different one with very different needs makes it a poor fit for the job at hand. You may as well descend into a volcano with a home stove potholder. I hope this has clarified matters. I understand that some people will be very discouraged by the stance I have taken on this. I have no desire to crush their dreams, only to ensure they make good and wise decisions around security.
- jxdxbx 4y ago
  Yeah, when I saw that, I decided not to bother even checking it out. Your app has to be really essential if you expect me to used a bloated, glorified web app.
- Alifatisk 4y ago
  > Stop enabling the chromium monopoly! Amen to that, FF & the rest for the win!
ryanianian 4y ago
> Or search through the full text of every page you've visited, even if you don't remember the title. Is that a feature of the underlying browser engine or an addon? I've wanted that for years but maybe not enough to fiddle with an entirely new browser app.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  On MacOS Safari has had this for quite sometime, but I think it taps into system-wide Spotlight
- tta 4y ago
  Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30696451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30696451
Maursault 4y ago
Which OS versions are supported?
- lzauz 4y ago
  Whatever Electron supports I suppose.
jmondi 4y ago
Everyone is complaining it is built in electron, and it is a browser running a browser. Brave is also built on electron and is also a browser running a browser.
- yla92 4y ago
  I don't think it's true anymore since they have moved on from Electron to Chromium. https://www.zdnet.com/article/brave-browser-moves-to-chromium-codebase-now-supports-chrome-extensions/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/brave-browser-moves-to-chromiu...
- cfuendev 4y ago
  People will complain about literally anything without ever comparing the UI, UX, Speed or Resource Usage of the thing rivaling their favorite app. Everybody should get Min, use it enough time, then make educated opinions instead of hating in web technologies just for the memes. I didn't know Brave was an Electron app
  - latexr 4y ago
    > instead of hating in web technologies just for the memes. Let’s nip this in the bud. The comment you’re replying to says “Everyone is complaining it is built in electron” but I’ve read every comment in this so far tiny thread and there is literally one comment complaining of it being Electron. > I didn't know Brave was an Electron app It’s not: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33983708 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33983708
    - jmondi 4y ago
      Fwiw, I commented on this when there was only one or two comments on this, and all of them were complaining about electron.
      - latexr 4y ago
        One comment is insufficient to extrapolate to “everyone” or “all of them”. It sows discord and splits people into sides before there’s been any conversation.
sprkwd 4y ago
Out of the new, new wave of browsers, I'm actually enjoying Arc browser at the moment. https://arc.net https://arc.net
- sadn1ck 4y ago
  Same, I use it for all the work apps I need instead of getting 5 different electron apps, works pretty well. The easel and notes are also pretty nice.
- poetril 4y ago
  I've been using Arc on my work machine, really hoping they release a Linux compatible version soon so I can use it on my personal machines as well.
- kieckerjan 4y ago
  Would be nice if the site told me what it is all about instead of asking for my e-mail address.
- vehemenz 4y ago
  I tried it, but I realized there was no mobile app to sync with. Unless that's changed.
- bmulyadi 4y ago
  +1 for Arc, their Boost feature lets you create browser add-ons with just a few lines of code
- imbnwa 4y ago
  Arc is the best innovation in browser UI yet
rexreed 4y ago
If you want fast and minimal, give Lynx a try. The original fast, minimal, privacy protected browser: https://lynx.invisible-island.net/current/ https://lynx.invisible-island.net/current/
- tomrod 4y ago
  Yes! CLI based browsers are awesome.
  - rollcat 4y ago
    Apologies for nitpicking, but Lynx is not a CLI program. CLI programs are non-interactive, composable via stdio / shell scripting, designed to do their one task and return you to your shell prompt. Lynx is an interactive, terminal-based (character cell grid) program, that takes over your shell session - it has every quality of a GUI program, except it's using a terminal emulator as its toolkit. But of course - it's still awesome, it's just not CLI.
    - jefftk 4y ago
      Often people distinguish between "command-line interfaces" (CLI) and "text user interfaces" (TUI). So "sed" is a CLI program, while vim is a TUI program. But it's also common to use "CLI" to include "TUI" programs, so I don't think your parent is wrong.
      - rollcat 4y ago
        > But it's also common to use "CLI" to include "TUI" programs [...]. It is indeed common, and (IMO) it is harmful, as TUI programs are just GUI programs in disguise. They do have two unique strengths: readily accessible over a serial console or an SSH session; and being the lowest common denominator of GUI programming. But they don't share any of the typical (desirable) qualities of CLI programs; typically, any CLI features (if present at all) are an afterthought. $ ls | vim Vim: Warning: Input is not from a terminal
tiffanyh 4y ago
Don’t forgot about https://librewolf.net/ https://librewolf.net/ It’s Firefox with every privacy setting turned to max.
- dr_kiszonka 4y ago
  There is also WaterFox, which I quite like as a secondary browser. https://www.waterfox.net/ https://www.waterfox.net/
  - b1ue64 4y ago
    WaterFox is owned by an advertising company called System1 https://system1.com/press/system1-welcomes-waterfox https://system1.com/press/system1-welcomes-waterfox
    - dr_kiszonka 4y ago
      Drats :/
- intelVISA 4y ago
  +1 for librewolf, but be sure to augment your security posture with the appropriate countermeasures when using such a unique fingerprint else your 'privacy' is just getting you moved to an even narrower, and more closely regarded list.
  - jancsika 4y ago
    I made a pull request to Librewolf that adds a handy dialog to deal with just this issue: Warning: You are using Librewolf. Augment security posture with the appropriate countermeasures? Yes | No | Continue | Abort | Cancel | Cancel with augmented security posture | Speak to elf
    - intelVISA 4y ago
      Appreciate it, though I'm worried about the UX impact of having the correct choice (speak to elf) all the way at the end...
sshine 4y ago
Electron, WebKit, nope. Kudos for experimenting with minimalism! But this is not the alternative to Firefox I've been looking for.
- latexr 4y ago
  > Electron, WebKit, nope. Electron uses Chromium. Which uses Blink, not WebKit.
  - moffkalast 4y ago
    Well the worst part of Firefox is arguably Gecko. If one could make a browser with Firefox's backend and instead render with Blink that would be pretty dope.
    - khuey 4y ago
      > a browser with Firefox's backend and instead render with Blink Gecko is Firefox's "backend" ...
      - moffkalast 4y ago
        Isn't it just the rendering engine? There's more to a browser than just laying out html.
        rollcat 4y ago
        A browser is not a web app, it doesn't have a strict separation of "frontend" and "backend" in the same sense that a web app would have; the lines are drawn quite differently. The rendering engine is never "just" the rendering engine; you can't abstract or swap it without tremendous effort. If you'd like to learn more about how a web browser project would organize its internal architecture, but are discouraged by the complexity of Chromium, Firefox, etc. I'd recommend source diving Ladybird (https://github.com/SerenityOS/ladybird https://github.com/SerenityOS/ladybird), NetSurf (https://www.netsurf-browser.org/ https://www.netsurf-browser.org/), or Dillo (https://www.dillo.org/ https://www.dillo.org/).
marosgrego 4y ago
Some truly minimal browser: https://www.netsurf-browser.org https://www.netsurf-browser.org
- kekebo 4y ago
  Inb4 references to links, lynx, brow.sh et al
deliriumchn 4y ago
Honestly hard to believe that its a power efficiency focused browser when it uses electron and chromium. Besides that, I really enjoy the surge of browsers in last few years, we got orion, min, arc and I guess few more I missed
DrSarez 4y ago
"a fast, minimal browser [...] written entirely with CSS and JavaScript using Electron" - That sounds like an oxymoron to me.
- Cupprum 4y ago
  Electron used to be much worse than it is right now. The project matured a lot. That being said, there still are some things to improve.
  - bartvk 4y ago
    Like startup time. I looked at a white window for a solid 5 seconds before any UI elements were painted. That's on the latest 16" Apple MacBook Pro. On the other hand, if you really like this browser, that may not matter. This week, I read about a new version of Firefox. So I closed it, and found out I had my browser running so long that Firefox needed to update twice.
column 4y ago
Moving the window is harder than it should be, the main tab takes all the width therefore you have to aim on top of it but not to high... Altdrag to the request, but still rather frustrating
benrapscallion 4y ago
FWIW, I love Lynx on my Mac, especially for ad-heavy websites. I miss the "in browser" services that brow.sh [1] used to provide. [1] https://www.brow.sh https://www.brow.sh
- reaperducer 4y ago
  I love Lynx on my Mac I love Lynx, too. I connect my retro computers to the internet through my Mac. Unfortunately, Lynx has bugs that you can't see on modern machines that show up on old, low speed connections. For example, when connecting to a web site, it displays a whole bunch of connection status information that I just don't care about. Enough that it's intrusive. Connecting to this web site, it displays ALL of the following: Getting https://news.ycombinator.com/ Looking up news.ycombinator.com Making HTTPS connection to news.ycombinator.com SSL callback:ok, preverify_ok=1, ssl_okay=0 Verified connection to news.ycombinator.com (cert=news.ycombinator.com) Certificate issued by: /C=US/O=DigiCert Inc/CN=DigiCert TLS RSA SHA256 2020 CA1 Secure 256-bit TLSv1.2 (ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) HTTP connection HTTP request. HTTP request sent; waiting for response. Read 1.5 KiB of data, 5.3 KiB/sec. HTTP/1.1 200 OK On a modern computer, all that flashes by so quickly that you never see it. On a retro computer at 300 baud, it takes FOREVER, and you have to sit through it for EVERY page. I've tried every Lynx flag and configuration listed, and none of them actually work. I think the notification suppression feature broke, but nobody noticed it because we've grown accustomed to high speed connections.
amadeuspagel 4y ago
I installed it (yes you can install this right away, the download button doesn't lead you to some signup form!) and played with it a bit. It's beautiful, but I feel that chrome has a better beauty/functionality tradeoff. Some differences vs chrome I noted: — no favicons — no addressbar — no skeuomorphic tabs All these things make it look more beautiful and elegant then chrome, but less functional.
- sodapopcan 4y ago
  I love this browser in theory, but these were my problems with it exactly and they all really hurt usability. Favicons are ultra functional—when I'm looking for a tab most of the time I'm looking for the favicon, not the title. Otherwise, I'm moving my mouse to the rough area it I know that it is and having tabs that fill up as much of the width as possible kills this as I'm opening more and more tabs and they shrink exponentially. And why no option to show the addressbar? I feel disoriented when I can't glance up and see where I am. The worst part is to see the addressbar, it hides the page, so you can never see the page and the addressbar together in context. I was really excited about this browser but unfortunately those were all hard show-stoppers.
  - sodapopcan 4y ago
    To say something positive as I focused on negative there, I love the 1password integration. It's by far the least intrusive I've encountered and I really, really want that in another browser (or for min to fix the aforementioned problems, but I feel like they're maybe core to its aesthetic?)
- timeon 4y ago
  > (yes you can install this right away, the download button doesn't lead you to some signup form!) Are there browsers you can download only after login?
  - bollos 4y ago
    Arc is behind a signup page and subsequent Arc account if you want to use it right now.
RubyRidgeRandy 4y ago
I tried this out for a little bit. Looks very clean. I had these issues and suggestions: - Set min to dark mode, but it made no difference. Restarted to no avail. - Set all ads to be blocked, still saw a lot of ads on reddit, youtube, others. - Design wise, I think the app should default to having borders between tabs. - There should be more white space at the top to drag the window around. The app opened maximized and when I went to drag it on windows I could only click the the URL bar because there is only a little bit of padding inbetween it and the top of the window. - I have a large monitor and the when you click on the url bar when you have multiple tabs open, it expands to the full window width so the text you were looking at moves all the way to the left, very nitpicky I know, but I think this is not a great design choice and maybe the text should stay where it is when changing sites.
wereallterrrist 4y ago
Just... give Firefox a shot people. Please: https://i.imgur.com/81OpEOy.png https://i.imgur.com/81OpEOy.png
- vjerancrnjak 4y ago
  I tried it on mobile and it's interesting that quite a lot of websites are broken. Many tapping workflows I had in Chrome on Android are fully broken in Firefox. From simple deepl.com to Google products that look like they dropped FF support. Even Reddit on Firefox PC crashes occasionally (the whole site turns white while browsing). Reddit on FF on Android is barely browsable.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 4y ago
    I haven't encountered any issue with Firefox for Android for years. Here's how you can fix this all at once: https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/g3tyfu/how_to_switch_user_agents_on_firefox_preview/ https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/g3tyfu/how_to_swit... Google is intentionally breaking support for Firefox on their websites. Other just don't care and support monopolies.
    - vjerancrnjak 4y ago
      Thanks, interesting, I'll try it out. I know I convinced my wife to switch to Firefox for Android (for uBlock) and she was complaining even more than I about all of her browsing workflows being crippled. Compared to her I rarely use my phone for browsing, I do not feel as impacted.
    - dijit 4y ago
      Firefox does seem to be untested for a lot of websites. You can't do video calls with Teams in firefox for a really clear and obvious example, but I encounter breakages quite often and have to switch back to Chrome. Safari suffers the same, but I get the impression people are testing safari more than Chrome.. but I hear so many complaints on hackernews about safari, I suspect at some point Chrome penetration will finally dislodge Safari on MacOS... or if MacOS market share goes down: then it's over and we have a total monopoly.
therealmarv 4y ago
Stay away if you value your security. Nothing personally against Electron but a browser is (or can be) exposed to all kinds of sites which do not have your best interest in mind. You really want always the latest security updates and a browser with a strong security concept (sandbox, encapsulation, taking advantage OS security etc) which is not the aim of Electron afaik.
- kevincox 4y ago
  Yes. As I understand it, you should not render untrusted web content in Electron. They do have a checklist of how to attempt to do so securely but overall it is not designed to make web browsers, it is designed to create applications. https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/tutorial/security#isolation-for-untrusted-content https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/tutorial/security#iso...
callumprentice 4y ago
The Ladybird bowser - part of the Serenity OS - is another alternative I’m following with a mixture of astonishment, admiration and excitement - https://awesomekling.github.io/Ladybird-a-new-cross-platform-browser-project/ https://awesomekling.github.io/Ladybird-a-new-cross-platform... I suspect that for most people, it still has a way to go before it could be considered a daily driver, but the rate of progress is incredible and I’m sure it will get there.
- password4321 4y ago
  What is the easiest way to use Ladybird?
  - csb6 4y ago
    You have to build from source. The repo is here [0]; there is a link to build instructions in the README. It is still experimental, but has an active community working on it.
    - csb6 4y ago
      Oops, forgot to drop the link. It is: https://github.com/SerenityOS/ladybird https://github.com/SerenityOS/ladybird
- ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
  Yup same. For me this is the only alternative browser project worth talking about as it is creating a web engine from scratch.
toyg 4y ago
I just use FF and leave the stock OS browser (typically Edge or Safari) "clean", ready for those battery-saving times. The other day I only had a 20W laptop charger, which I know is only enough to slow down battery discharge with FF; used Edge, and the battery actually charged significantly. Same experiences I had with Safari. I'll keep using Firefox, because it's good for the ecosystem, but when battery is an issue, I switch.
nothrowaways 4y ago
I like the minimalist UI, it should be a default other browsers too.
jefftk 4y ago
Whenever a new browser is announced my first question is if it's a new engine, and if not, what engine is it a UI for? In this case it turns out to be built on Electron, which uses the Blink (Chrome's) rendering engine.
hestefisk 4y ago
Every time I see a new browser with privacy features announced, I get hopeful it’s actually something new. Until I discover it’s another Chromium fork with a different skin. I really wish Servo hadn’t died. Until then, I’ll stick with FF.
gwn7 4y ago
Fast, efficient, and battery-friendly browser... So far so good. Based on Electron... What? How can it be possible for an Electron based browser to be faster / more efficient / battery-friendlier than the other mainstream ones? Sounds like bullshit. We need to see some benchmarks.
- meltedcapacitor 4y ago
  No need for a benchmark, wrapped Chromium is not going to beat Chromium. The curious thing is this urge to lie: a focused UI for Chromium is a valid project, why wrap it in deception and dishonesty?
  - parhamn 4y ago
    Sure it can. A chromium browser has an arbitrary number of chromium processes (e.g tabs). The root process quickly becomes irrelevant performance wise for average users. Even if you have the simplest tab unloading strategy (like Tab suspender) built in, you'd beat Chrome. But, unloading tabs isn't a safe thing to do in web-standard browsers but fine in niche consumer ones. Its not really word-smithing either, in all practical ways that matter to the end user, something like tab suspension makes it a much more efficient browser. Even if the JS/rendering (engine) bits are the same speed. Although, to be fair, I'm not sure if Min does this, the chromium browser I made does.
    - feep 4y ago
      Can we have a link to your chromium build with unloading? Or is it private?
      - makeitdouble 4y ago
        Probably this (from parhamm’s profile) https://synth.app/ https://synth.app/
        ajolly 4y ago
thunderbong 4y ago
Everyone's comparing this to a regular browser. But since it's electron based, I'm just wondering whether this could be a path to creating a really good browser for development. As of now, most of the debugging that's done on browsers are either based on the tools provided by the browser itself, or via extensions and add-ons. I just hope, this kind of paves the way for developers themselves to add features and capabilities. Other browsers in this space - Polypane[0], Sizzy[1], Blisk[2] [0]: https://polypane.app/ https://polypane.app/ [1]: https://sizzy.co https://sizzy.co [2]: https://blisk.io https://blisk.io
- kilian 4y ago
  Hey, creator of Polypane here! What would make something a 'really good browser for development' to you?
- aliqot 4y ago
  All of the testimonials are broken on Sizzy for me
lopkeny12ko 4y ago
> browser that protects your privacy It's Chromium under the hood. No thanks.
graderjs 4y ago
It would be cool if there was a "reference implementation" of the W3C specs on HTML, CSS, JavaScript etc, that was untethered to a particular megacorporation / browser-vendor / ideology / stance on privacy / insert other potentially divisive fracture line here ... and fully open source. Then folks could "plug them in" as libraries to their app / custom browser, and go to town adding all the custom ad and spyware or privacy and freedum preserving defenses they like. Surely a committed group of open sourcers on GitHub could achieve this.
NunoSempere 4y ago
Recently I've been playing with Rose, which is a small GTK+Webkit project that I've found really nice to hack on [1]. Src: <https://github.com/mini-rose/rose https://github.com/mini-rose/rose> [1]. And I'm in fact typing this from within it.
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incanus77 4y ago
I am a longtime very “Mac person” and don’t like non-Cocoa / standard Mac UI apps, but I used Min for a long while. I went back to Safari once Cloud Tabs stabilized, but Min is just incredibly lean, fast, and reliable. Big fan — and I may yet go back!
bityard 4y ago
From reading the headline, I was hopeful that this would be one of my most desired apps that doesn't exist yet: a browser that renders pages in Reader Mode, but all the time. Unfortunately this is just a regular browser with "minimal" only meaning practically no UI.
- aliqot 4y ago
  I want that so bad. I'd even take a plugin that could make it a hard setting that you turn on for the day.
- rahoulb 4y ago
  Safari has an option for this (both mobile and desktop). And you can switch it on/off per site.
posharma 4y ago
All software products start like this - minimal, less memory, etc. Wait for a few months and things go south. Sorry, doesn’t excite me.
wendyshu 4y ago
There needs to be a word for these projects that are a UI layer on top of a preexisting browser engine. Calling it a "new browser" is a little confusing.
- khaledh 4y ago
  Agreed. It's the same when someone packages the Linux kernel + some user space apps and calls it a "new Operating System".
dang 4y ago
Related: Min – A smarter web browser - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15429286 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15429286 - Oct 2017 (72 comments) Show HN: Min – web browser with better search and built-in ad blocking - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11484770 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11484770 - April 2016 (91 comments)
pipeline_peak 4y ago
I hate to be egotistical, I’m sure like many people before me, I had the idea of a reader only browser. Of course I never came through with the idea because well…look how much unpaid work goes into it. As others have said, I don’t think Electron is well suited for anything to be resource friendly. I think it’s well suited for apps on machines that can afford to run Electron, not something as general purpose as a browser. Writing a browser is very hard, but something done in reader mode is clearly more feasible. I wanted to marry FreeText with Gumbo, OpenGL and C++. Maybe even throw in a built in RSS reader that displays the stripped pages. but I have no idea how to get FreeText working with OpenGL. I think if I could achieve this, I could get something that’s truly lightweight.
- travisgriggs 4y ago
  > Writing a browser is very hard And this pretty much sums up why I hate todays internet. Writing a telnet client was super easy. FTP, a little harder, but doable. Writing an SVG renderer using any canvas like tech (Cairo, canvas, CoreGraphics) is moderate, but again pretty doable. The fact that the w3c has churned out spec after spec that layers more and more complexity on something that was supposed to be a document viewer with links and such that we find ourselves in a position where advancing the state of the art requires a small nations state worth of resources, just to come current, is profoundly depressing.
  - pipeline_peak 4y ago
    My biggest concern attempting to scrape out just the text and images. If this browser is anything like Safari Reader mode, it’s gonna fail to read all those modern pages that are entangled in template engine boilerplate snot. The web is far too bloated, but it’s been consumer centric for a long time, this was only expected. It’s not just an HTTP document viewer, it’s a pop up tabloid viewer…
bee_rider 4y ago
I liked suckles surf (which at least uses webkit2 rather than being yet another chrome). But in the end, the web is too complicated for simple tools, something like Firefox with extensions and stuff to handle downloaded files is pretty helpful. It seems quite unfortunate that such large programs are required to handle current web standards. Anything useful could be expressed as text in plain old html, but then, all the bloat needs to be there to pay the bills I guess.
mikl 4y ago
Looks nice, but since they can’t be bothered to get the Mac app properly signed, I can’t be bothered to try it. Sorry, but with the malware threat level being what it is, getting the app signatures right is table stakes.
ThinkBeat 4y ago
Would this mean that the browser gets security updates far slower than Chromium itself? Or is Electron updates as frequently?
deleted 4y ago
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dfex 4y ago
Feels very snappy, but for me it's a non-starter: rejects connection to any site with a self-signed certificate, with no apparent means of override. I get the security stance, but I configure a LOT of networking hardware via WebUI (eg: Palo Alto firewalls - self-signed from the factory) and this makes it next to useless.
tholdem 4y ago
One reason why mainstream web browsers are slow and "bulky" and use a lot of RAM is that they use all sorts of different exploit mitigation and hardening techniques. One can only wonder what these alternatives do when they claim to be minimal and fast and worse, private. Can there really be privacy without security?
mackrevinack 4y ago
tried this recently but like most alternative browsers, if it doesnt have support for ublock or dark reader then im usually back to firefox after a day or so. theres also another extension that i cant think of the name. it adds the url to the title of the window so that keepass/autotype can detect what site it is. i have a few other extensions but i would be willing to forego them if the browser was that good

188 points by aaossa 4y ago

Browser running in browser, not bad, not bad at all.

A browser in electron? At this point just use chromium - makes no difference. Anyway, use firefox or librewolf. Stop enabling the chromium monopoly!

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Wowfunhappy 4y ago
The advantage of Min would be the UI, which I find quite appealing myself.
- iHateStylo 4y ago
  One might argue this should be a fork of Chromium, not Electron. Chromium comes with native tabs and a bunch of other useful parts, without the security issues that Electron exposes.
  - nateb2022 4y ago
    This isn't a fork of Electron. It is an Electron-based app, and as such the Electron project maintains the core functionality of the browser and Min just presents a unified interface and feature set.
    - DoctorOW 4y ago
      They didn't say "fork of Electron", rather Electron is essentially "Chromium - browser UI" so they are saying there is a simplification to be made in an app that is "Chromium - browser UI + browser UI"
      - jefftk 4y ago
        > They didn't say "fork of Electron" Flagging that the phrase "this should be a fork of Chromium, not Electron" is ambiguous between "this shouldn't be a fork of Electron" and "this shouldn't be Electron".
        nebulous1 4y ago
        The phrasing is ambiguous, I agree. However, as forking Electron to make Min wouldn't make any sense, and the replier knew this, reading it to mean that seems like a mistake to me. The fact is that it can be very difficult to write things that aren't ambiguous at some level (albeit that isn't the case here), so the reader has to make a good-faith effort to understand.
        Wowfunhappy 4y ago
        Fwiw, I read it the same way as nateb2022 at first. It took a second read to realize there was another interpretation. This is why writing is hard!
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - calny 4y ago
    > One might argue this should be a fork of Chromium, not Electron. Fair enough point. One reason it's Electron, I assume, is that it's much easier for typical developers to build than forking Chromium. I've been there. I've hacked at building a touchless-controlled browser that uses hand gesture and speech recognition to interact with the web. I can cobble something basic together in Electron, but it's much more intensive to get off the ground forking Chromium (though you're right the native tabs and useful parts would be helpful). > without the security issues that Electron exposes. Another reasonable point. For reference, here's an overview of security from Electron itself.[1] Security issues are one reason I haven't pursued the touchless browser more actively. I don't know if it's a dealbreaker, but it's not my area of expertise and I'd need to get seriously up to speed before releasing anything. From a glance, it does look like Min is trying to follow good security practices, such as having BrowserView webPreferences default to "nodeIntegration: false", "contextIsolation: true", etc.[2] And in the issues the maintainers seem aware of security issues, eg: > Making internal pages have the same privileges as the browser UI would be nice, although it's kind of difficult to implement. You could add nodeintegration to the webview tag, but I think there's a pretty big risk of accidentaly loading a regular webpage with nodeintegration enabled if we do that, which would be bad.[3] Ideally there wouldn't be such a large Chromium (and Chromium-based) monopoly on browsers, but overall I'm still glad to see projects like this trying to create different UI options. [1] https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/tutorial/security https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/tutorial/security [2] https://github.com/minbrowser/min/blob/7aba03fb645334366f9ec71867e36fc6fbf4ee15/main/viewManager.js#L9 https://github.com/minbrowser/min/blob/7aba03fb645334366f9ec... [3] https://github.com/minbrowser/min/issues/554#issuecomment-386829195 https://github.com/minbrowser/min/issues/554#issuecomment-38...
- terminal_d 4y ago
  Check out r/firefoxcss on reddit.
- stusmall 4y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if you could find a add-on to get close to that. I used one for Firefox in the late 00s that gave a similar minimal effect, just not as extreme. Today browsers are one of the most important pieces of security software on our machine. They have a huge surface area, act as a sandbox for gobs of untrusted code and many of us conduct our most sensitive work in them (online banking etc). I'd be hesitant to use any browser that doesn't have the team behind it to quickly manage threats and maintain high quality code.
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    Sadly, modern browsers don't allow add-ons to significantly alter the UI, so you'd never see an extension like this today. You can do some neat stuff with userchrome in Firefox (not as an add-on) but it'll break after basically every update. There's no infrastructure in place to update the userchrome in sync with the browser, and Mozilla appears to be hostile towards the whole feature. There are decent reasons for all of this, but it means the only way to experiment is to basically make your own app, as Min did.
- black7375 4y ago
  Firefox's design is more custom than you think. https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix/wiki/Show-Off-Your-Config https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix/wiki/Show-Off-Yo... https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix/pull/511 https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix/pull/511
d12bb 4y ago
> Anyway, use firefox or librewolf. Stop enabling the chromium monopoly! Or Safari of course, it's really a great browser if one's on the Mac.
- Terretta 4y ago
  > Or Safari of course, it's really a great browser if one's on the Mac. The venerable iCab or new Orion from Kagi shows what's possible here. https://www.icab.de/ https://www.icab.de/ https://browser.kagi.com/ https://browser.kagi.com/ Kagi's Orion runs Firefox and Chrome extensions, including on iOS, and of course works with Kagi search, which is enough better that it's worth switching from Google/Bing/DDG. --- EDIT to add, on iCab, it's been updated as of 2020, which unfortunately finally dropped the legacy Macs, but does support modern filter lists: iCab 6.0 (September, 28th 2020) iCab 6.0 is completely rewritten, therefore there’re many new features and existing many old features have changed. The new release uses the newer modern web engine of the macOS which is much faster and smoother than the classic engine that was used by older iCab releases. It also supports more web technologies. Because the modern web engine had too many limitations under macOS 10.12 and older, the minimum macOS release for the new version of iCab is therefore macOS 10.13. Older macOS releases are no longer supported. This has the advantage that iCab can now rely on many native macOS features which are only available in newer macOS releases. iCab now uses the native „Tabs“ feature of the macOS, so the tabs in iCab will now behave just as the Tabs in all other Apps using the native Tabs feature (like Safari Mail, the Finder etc). All the capabilities of the macOS to manage tabs are fully available in iCab as well. iCab is now using the native filter capabilities of the modern web engine of the macOS. Therefore the filter manager is completely new. The new filter manager supports the popular filter lists from AdBlock Plus, Easylist, uBlock and compatible. The filter manager window provides a few links to web sites where you can find these filter lists. using the „Add“ or „Subscribe“ links on these sites can directly import these filter lists, but you can also simply download these lists into a file and then use the „import“ feature of the Filter Manager to import these files. iCab 6.0 supports syncing of tabs, bookmarks, reading list, filters and search engine via iCloud. The iCloud sync is compatible to iCab Mobile for the iOS platform, so you can now sync all this data between iCab for the Mac and iCab Mobile for the iOS as well. The new web engine provides more control over audio and video playback. It is possible to immediately stop all audio and video playback with a certain menu command. But it can also make sure that audio and video playback only occurs on the active tab. Modules of the module manager can be put into the status bar, so these modules are directly accessible very fast and comfortably. The App supports private tabs which do not save any private data (Cookies, Caches etc). Private tabs are marked with a red border around the address field. And much more
nothrowaways 4y ago
Was my first reaction too.
deagle50 4y ago
+1 for librewolf (and arkenfox user.js). I just wish RFP didn't force 60hz rendering as have a 120hz MBP with 144hz external monitors...
Kalium 4y ago
On the contrary, it makes a significant difference vs Chromium. Using Electron means having jettisoned a number of security protections that Chromium offers while exposing the system to the attacks those are designed to stop. In design terms, this is a wonderful, beautiful, laudable project in pursuit of a great purity of vision. In security terms, this is an exercise in recklessness. It's irresponsible to even suggest that people should try using it.
- smaddock 4y ago
  Can you elaborate on which security protections are not used by Electron, and by extension Min?
  - Kalium 4y ago
    https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/tutorial/security https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/tutorial/security This seems like a good start to understanding Electron security and why using it to do what the documentation expressly states is unwise might be less than optimal.
    - maria2 4y ago
      Can you give a specific example of what is wrong with Min's security configuration, assuming it is following Electron best practices. Asserting that the security model is bad and linking to Electron's security tutorial is not helpful.
      - Kalium 4y ago
        For my own part, I find the introduction that specifically warns that Electron is not a web browser and should not be trusted to handle potentially malicious code from over a network to be clear enough. I understand that this is an opinion that not everyone will share. For a single specific example, look at the information on permissions and compare to how min handles them. I also see no functionality that attempts to determine if code is malicious or not. Chrome does have measures in it to do this. That said, I need to be clear. The matter at hand is not a matter of mere configuration and cannot be addressed by better configuration of Electron. Chromium was designed and built to run in a very hostile context. Electron has been built to run in a much more trustworthy context. There is no amount of configuration that will turn the latter into the former because it is not purely a difference of configuration. Electron's security model is not bad in any absolute sense. It's designed for a particular context and set of scenarios. Dropping it into a very different one with very different needs makes it a poor fit for the job at hand. You may as well descend into a volcano with a home stove potholder. I hope this has clarified matters. I understand that some people will be very discouraged by the stance I have taken on this. I have no desire to crush their dreams, only to ensure they make good and wise decisions around security.
jxdxbx 4y ago
Yeah, when I saw that, I decided not to bother even checking it out. Your app has to be really essential if you expect me to used a bloated, glorified web app.
Alifatisk 4y ago
> Stop enabling the chromium monopoly! Amen to that, FF & the rest for the win!

ryanianian 4y ago

> Or search through the full text of every page you've visited, even if you don't remember the title. Is that a feature of the underlying browser engine or an addon? I've wanted that for years but maybe not enough to fiddle with an entirely new browser app.

dmitriid 4y ago
On MacOS Safari has had this for quite sometime, but I think it taps into system-wide Spotlight
tta 4y ago
Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30696451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30696451

Maursault 4y ago

Which OS versions are supported?

lzauz 4y ago
Whatever Electron supports I suppose.

jmondi 4y ago

Everyone is complaining it is built in electron, and it is a browser running a browser. Brave is also built on electron and is also a browser running a browser.

yla92 4y ago
I don't think it's true anymore since they have moved on from Electron to Chromium. https://www.zdnet.com/article/brave-browser-moves-to-chromium-codebase-now-supports-chrome-extensions/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/brave-browser-moves-to-chromiu...
cfuendev 4y ago
People will complain about literally anything without ever comparing the UI, UX, Speed or Resource Usage of the thing rivaling their favorite app. Everybody should get Min, use it enough time, then make educated opinions instead of hating in web technologies just for the memes. I didn't know Brave was an Electron app
- latexr 4y ago
  > instead of hating in web technologies just for the memes. Let’s nip this in the bud. The comment you’re replying to says “Everyone is complaining it is built in electron” but I’ve read every comment in this so far tiny thread and there is literally one comment complaining of it being Electron. > I didn't know Brave was an Electron app It’s not: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33983708 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33983708
  - jmondi 4y ago
    Fwiw, I commented on this when there was only one or two comments on this, and all of them were complaining about electron.
    - latexr 4y ago
      One comment is insufficient to extrapolate to “everyone” or “all of them”. It sows discord and splits people into sides before there’s been any conversation.

sprkwd 4y ago

Out of the new, new wave of browsers, I'm actually enjoying Arc browser at the moment. https://arc.net https://arc.net

sadn1ck 4y ago
Same, I use it for all the work apps I need instead of getting 5 different electron apps, works pretty well. The easel and notes are also pretty nice.
poetril 4y ago
I've been using Arc on my work machine, really hoping they release a Linux compatible version soon so I can use it on my personal machines as well.
kieckerjan 4y ago
Would be nice if the site told me what it is all about instead of asking for my e-mail address.
vehemenz 4y ago
I tried it, but I realized there was no mobile app to sync with. Unless that's changed.
bmulyadi 4y ago
+1 for Arc, their Boost feature lets you create browser add-ons with just a few lines of code
imbnwa 4y ago
Arc is the best innovation in browser UI yet

rexreed 4y ago

If you want fast and minimal, give Lynx a try. The original fast, minimal, privacy protected browser: https://lynx.invisible-island.net/current/ https://lynx.invisible-island.net/current/

tomrod 4y ago
Yes! CLI based browsers are awesome.
- rollcat 4y ago
  Apologies for nitpicking, but Lynx is not a CLI program. CLI programs are non-interactive, composable via stdio / shell scripting, designed to do their one task and return you to your shell prompt. Lynx is an interactive, terminal-based (character cell grid) program, that takes over your shell session - it has every quality of a GUI program, except it's using a terminal emulator as its toolkit. But of course - it's still awesome, it's just not CLI.
  - jefftk 4y ago
    Often people distinguish between "command-line interfaces" (CLI) and "text user interfaces" (TUI). So "sed" is a CLI program, while vim is a TUI program. But it's also common to use "CLI" to include "TUI" programs, so I don't think your parent is wrong.
    - rollcat 4y ago
      > But it's also common to use "CLI" to include "TUI" programs [...]. It is indeed common, and (IMO) it is harmful, as TUI programs are just GUI programs in disguise. They do have two unique strengths: readily accessible over a serial console or an SSH session; and being the lowest common denominator of GUI programming. But they don't share any of the typical (desirable) qualities of CLI programs; typically, any CLI features (if present at all) are an afterthought. $ ls | vim Vim: Warning: Input is not from a terminal

tiffanyh 4y ago

Don’t forgot about https://librewolf.net/ https://librewolf.net/ It’s Firefox with every privacy setting turned to max.

dr_kiszonka 4y ago
There is also WaterFox, which I quite like as a secondary browser. https://www.waterfox.net/ https://www.waterfox.net/
- b1ue64 4y ago
  WaterFox is owned by an advertising company called System1 https://system1.com/press/system1-welcomes-waterfox https://system1.com/press/system1-welcomes-waterfox
  - dr_kiszonka 4y ago
    Drats :/
intelVISA 4y ago
+1 for librewolf, but be sure to augment your security posture with the appropriate countermeasures when using such a unique fingerprint else your 'privacy' is just getting you moved to an even narrower, and more closely regarded list.
- jancsika 4y ago
  I made a pull request to Librewolf that adds a handy dialog to deal with just this issue: Warning: You are using Librewolf. Augment security posture with the appropriate countermeasures? Yes | No | Continue | Abort | Cancel | Cancel with augmented security posture | Speak to elf
  - intelVISA 4y ago
    Appreciate it, though I'm worried about the UX impact of having the correct choice (speak to elf) all the way at the end...

sshine 4y ago

Electron, WebKit, nope. Kudos for experimenting with minimalism! But this is not the alternative to Firefox I've been looking for.

latexr 4y ago
> Electron, WebKit, nope. Electron uses Chromium. Which uses Blink, not WebKit.
- moffkalast 4y ago
  Well the worst part of Firefox is arguably Gecko. If one could make a browser with Firefox's backend and instead render with Blink that would be pretty dope.
  - khuey 4y ago
    > a browser with Firefox's backend and instead render with Blink Gecko is Firefox's "backend" ...
    - moffkalast 4y ago
      Isn't it just the rendering engine? There's more to a browser than just laying out html.
      - rollcat 4y ago
        A browser is not a web app, it doesn't have a strict separation of "frontend" and "backend" in the same sense that a web app would have; the lines are drawn quite differently. The rendering engine is never "just" the rendering engine; you can't abstract or swap it without tremendous effort. If you'd like to learn more about how a web browser project would organize its internal architecture, but are discouraged by the complexity of Chromium, Firefox, etc. I'd recommend source diving Ladybird (https://github.com/SerenityOS/ladybird https://github.com/SerenityOS/ladybird), NetSurf (https://www.netsurf-browser.org/ https://www.netsurf-browser.org/), or Dillo (https://www.dillo.org/ https://www.dillo.org/).

marosgrego 4y ago

Some truly minimal browser: https://www.netsurf-browser.org https://www.netsurf-browser.org

kekebo 4y ago
Inb4 references to links, lynx, brow.sh et al

deliriumchn 4y ago

Honestly hard to believe that its a power efficiency focused browser when it uses electron and chromium. Besides that, I really enjoy the surge of browsers in last few years, we got orion, min, arc and I guess few more I missed

DrSarez 4y ago

"a fast, minimal browser [...] written entirely with CSS and JavaScript using Electron" - That sounds like an oxymoron to me.

Cupprum 4y ago
Electron used to be much worse than it is right now. The project matured a lot. That being said, there still are some things to improve.
- bartvk 4y ago
  Like startup time. I looked at a white window for a solid 5 seconds before any UI elements were painted. That's on the latest 16" Apple MacBook Pro. On the other hand, if you really like this browser, that may not matter. This week, I read about a new version of Firefox. So I closed it, and found out I had my browser running so long that Firefox needed to update twice.

column 4y ago

Moving the window is harder than it should be, the main tab takes all the width therefore you have to aim on top of it but not to high... Altdrag to the request, but still rather frustrating

benrapscallion 4y ago

FWIW, I love Lynx on my Mac, especially for ad-heavy websites. I miss the "in browser" services that brow.sh [1] used to provide. [1] https://www.brow.sh https://www.brow.sh

reaperducer 4y ago
I love Lynx on my Mac I love Lynx, too. I connect my retro computers to the internet through my Mac. Unfortunately, Lynx has bugs that you can't see on modern machines that show up on old, low speed connections. For example, when connecting to a web site, it displays a whole bunch of connection status information that I just don't care about. Enough that it's intrusive. Connecting to this web site, it displays ALL of the following: Getting https://news.ycombinator.com/ Looking up news.ycombinator.com Making HTTPS connection to news.ycombinator.com SSL callback:ok, preverify_ok=1, ssl_okay=0 Verified connection to news.ycombinator.com (cert=news.ycombinator.com) Certificate issued by: /C=US/O=DigiCert Inc/CN=DigiCert TLS RSA SHA256 2020 CA1 Secure 256-bit TLSv1.2 (ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) HTTP connection HTTP request. HTTP request sent; waiting for response. Read 1.5 KiB of data, 5.3 KiB/sec. HTTP/1.1 200 OK On a modern computer, all that flashes by so quickly that you never see it. On a retro computer at 300 baud, it takes FOREVER, and you have to sit through it for EVERY page. I've tried every Lynx flag and configuration listed, and none of them actually work. I think the notification suppression feature broke, but nobody noticed it because we've grown accustomed to high speed connections.

amadeuspagel 4y ago

I installed it (yes you can install this right away, the download button doesn't lead you to some signup form!) and played with it a bit. It's beautiful, but I feel that chrome has a better beauty/functionality tradeoff. Some differences vs chrome I noted: — no favicons — no addressbar — no skeuomorphic tabs All these things make it look more beautiful and elegant then chrome, but less functional.

sodapopcan 4y ago
I love this browser in theory, but these were my problems with it exactly and they all really hurt usability. Favicons are ultra functional—when I'm looking for a tab most of the time I'm looking for the favicon, not the title. Otherwise, I'm moving my mouse to the rough area it I know that it is and having tabs that fill up as much of the width as possible kills this as I'm opening more and more tabs and they shrink exponentially. And why no option to show the addressbar? I feel disoriented when I can't glance up and see where I am. The worst part is to see the addressbar, it hides the page, so you can never see the page and the addressbar together in context. I was really excited about this browser but unfortunately those were all hard show-stoppers.
- sodapopcan 4y ago
  To say something positive as I focused on negative there, I love the 1password integration. It's by far the least intrusive I've encountered and I really, really want that in another browser (or for min to fix the aforementioned problems, but I feel like they're maybe core to its aesthetic?)
timeon 4y ago
> (yes you can install this right away, the download button doesn't lead you to some signup form!) Are there browsers you can download only after login?
- bollos 4y ago
  Arc is behind a signup page and subsequent Arc account if you want to use it right now.

RubyRidgeRandy 4y ago

I tried this out for a little bit. Looks very clean. I had these issues and suggestions: - Set min to dark mode, but it made no difference. Restarted to no avail. - Set all ads to be blocked, still saw a lot of ads on reddit, youtube, others. - Design wise, I think the app should default to having borders between tabs. - There should be more white space at the top to drag the window around. The app opened maximized and when I went to drag it on windows I could only click the the URL bar because there is only a little bit of padding inbetween it and the top of the window. - I have a large monitor and the when you click on the url bar when you have multiple tabs open, it expands to the full window width so the text you were looking at moves all the way to the left, very nitpicky I know, but I think this is not a great design choice and maybe the text should stay where it is when changing sites.

wereallterrrist 4y ago

Just... give Firefox a shot people. Please: https://i.imgur.com/81OpEOy.png https://i.imgur.com/81OpEOy.png

vjerancrnjak 4y ago
I tried it on mobile and it's interesting that quite a lot of websites are broken. Many tapping workflows I had in Chrome on Android are fully broken in Firefox. From simple deepl.com to Google products that look like they dropped FF support. Even Reddit on Firefox PC crashes occasionally (the whole site turns white while browsing). Reddit on FF on Android is barely browsable.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 4y ago
  I haven't encountered any issue with Firefox for Android for years. Here's how you can fix this all at once: https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/g3tyfu/how_to_switch_user_agents_on_firefox_preview/ https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/g3tyfu/how_to_swit... Google is intentionally breaking support for Firefox on their websites. Other just don't care and support monopolies.
  - vjerancrnjak 4y ago
    Thanks, interesting, I'll try it out. I know I convinced my wife to switch to Firefox for Android (for uBlock) and she was complaining even more than I about all of her browsing workflows being crippled. Compared to her I rarely use my phone for browsing, I do not feel as impacted.
  - dijit 4y ago
    Firefox does seem to be untested for a lot of websites. You can't do video calls with Teams in firefox for a really clear and obvious example, but I encounter breakages quite often and have to switch back to Chrome. Safari suffers the same, but I get the impression people are testing safari more than Chrome.. but I hear so many complaints on hackernews about safari, I suspect at some point Chrome penetration will finally dislodge Safari on MacOS... or if MacOS market share goes down: then it's over and we have a total monopoly.

therealmarv 4y ago

Stay away if you value your security. Nothing personally against Electron but a browser is (or can be) exposed to all kinds of sites which do not have your best interest in mind. You really want always the latest security updates and a browser with a strong security concept (sandbox, encapsulation, taking advantage OS security etc) which is not the aim of Electron afaik.

kevincox 4y ago
Yes. As I understand it, you should not render untrusted web content in Electron. They do have a checklist of how to attempt to do so securely but overall it is not designed to make web browsers, it is designed to create applications. https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/tutorial/security#isolation-for-untrusted-content https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/tutorial/security#iso...

callumprentice 4y ago

The Ladybird bowser - part of the Serenity OS - is another alternative I’m following with a mixture of astonishment, admiration and excitement - https://awesomekling.github.io/Ladybird-a-new-cross-platform-browser-project/ https://awesomekling.github.io/Ladybird-a-new-cross-platform... I suspect that for most people, it still has a way to go before it could be considered a daily driver, but the rate of progress is incredible and I’m sure it will get there.

password4321 4y ago
What is the easiest way to use Ladybird?
- csb6 4y ago
  You have to build from source. The repo is here [0]; there is a link to build instructions in the README. It is still experimental, but has an active community working on it.
  - csb6 4y ago
    Oops, forgot to drop the link. It is: https://github.com/SerenityOS/ladybird https://github.com/SerenityOS/ladybird
ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
Yup same. For me this is the only alternative browser project worth talking about as it is creating a web engine from scratch.

toyg 4y ago

I just use FF and leave the stock OS browser (typically Edge or Safari) "clean", ready for those battery-saving times. The other day I only had a 20W laptop charger, which I know is only enough to slow down battery discharge with FF; used Edge, and the battery actually charged significantly. Same experiences I had with Safari. I'll keep using Firefox, because it's good for the ecosystem, but when battery is an issue, I switch.

nothrowaways 4y ago

I like the minimalist UI, it should be a default other browsers too.

jefftk 4y ago

Whenever a new browser is announced my first question is if it's a new engine, and if not, what engine is it a UI for? In this case it turns out to be built on Electron, which uses the Blink (Chrome's) rendering engine.

hestefisk 4y ago

Every time I see a new browser with privacy features announced, I get hopeful it’s actually something new. Until I discover it’s another Chromium fork with a different skin. I really wish Servo hadn’t died. Until then, I’ll stick with FF.

gwn7 4y ago

Fast, efficient, and battery-friendly browser... So far so good. Based on Electron... What? How can it be possible for an Electron based browser to be faster / more efficient / battery-friendlier than the other mainstream ones? Sounds like bullshit. We need to see some benchmarks.

meltedcapacitor 4y ago
No need for a benchmark, wrapped Chromium is not going to beat Chromium. The curious thing is this urge to lie: a focused UI for Chromium is a valid project, why wrap it in deception and dishonesty?
- parhamn 4y ago
  Sure it can. A chromium browser has an arbitrary number of chromium processes (e.g tabs). The root process quickly becomes irrelevant performance wise for average users. Even if you have the simplest tab unloading strategy (like Tab suspender) built in, you'd beat Chrome. But, unloading tabs isn't a safe thing to do in web-standard browsers but fine in niche consumer ones. Its not really word-smithing either, in all practical ways that matter to the end user, something like tab suspension makes it a much more efficient browser. Even if the JS/rendering (engine) bits are the same speed. Although, to be fair, I'm not sure if Min does this, the chromium browser I made does.
  - feep 4y ago
    Can we have a link to your chromium build with unloading? Or is it private?
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      Probably this (from parhamm’s profile) https://synth.app/ https://synth.app/
      - ajolly 4y ago

thunderbong 4y ago

Everyone's comparing this to a regular browser. But since it's electron based, I'm just wondering whether this could be a path to creating a really good browser for development. As of now, most of the debugging that's done on browsers are either based on the tools provided by the browser itself, or via extensions and add-ons. I just hope, this kind of paves the way for developers themselves to add features and capabilities. Other browsers in this space - Polypane[0], Sizzy[1], Blisk[2] [0]: https://polypane.app/ https://polypane.app/ [1]: https://sizzy.co https://sizzy.co [2]: https://blisk.io https://blisk.io

kilian 4y ago
Hey, creator of Polypane here! What would make something a 'really good browser for development' to you?
aliqot 4y ago
All of the testimonials are broken on Sizzy for me

lopkeny12ko 4y ago

> browser that protects your privacy It's Chromium under the hood. No thanks.

graderjs 4y ago

It would be cool if there was a "reference implementation" of the W3C specs on HTML, CSS, JavaScript etc, that was untethered to a particular megacorporation / browser-vendor / ideology / stance on privacy / insert other potentially divisive fracture line here ... and fully open source. Then folks could "plug them in" as libraries to their app / custom browser, and go to town adding all the custom ad and spyware or privacy and freedum preserving defenses they like. Surely a committed group of open sourcers on GitHub could achieve this.

NunoSempere 4y ago

Recently I've been playing with Rose, which is a small GTK+Webkit project that I've found really nice to hack on [1]. Src: <https://github.com/mini-rose/rose https://github.com/mini-rose/rose> [1]. And I'm in fact typing this from within it.

deleted 4y ago

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incanus77 4y ago

I am a longtime very “Mac person” and don’t like non-Cocoa / standard Mac UI apps, but I used Min for a long while. I went back to Safari once Cloud Tabs stabilized, but Min is just incredibly lean, fast, and reliable. Big fan — and I may yet go back!

bityard 4y ago

From reading the headline, I was hopeful that this would be one of my most desired apps that doesn't exist yet: a browser that renders pages in Reader Mode, but all the time. Unfortunately this is just a regular browser with "minimal" only meaning practically no UI.

aliqot 4y ago
I want that so bad. I'd even take a plugin that could make it a hard setting that you turn on for the day.
rahoulb 4y ago
Safari has an option for this (both mobile and desktop). And you can switch it on/off per site.

posharma 4y ago

All software products start like this - minimal, less memory, etc. Wait for a few months and things go south. Sorry, doesn’t excite me.

wendyshu 4y ago

There needs to be a word for these projects that are a UI layer on top of a preexisting browser engine. Calling it a "new browser" is a little confusing.

khaledh 4y ago
Agreed. It's the same when someone packages the Linux kernel + some user space apps and calls it a "new Operating System".

dang 4y ago

Related: Min – A smarter web browser - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15429286 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15429286 - Oct 2017 (72 comments) Show HN: Min – web browser with better search and built-in ad blocking - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11484770 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11484770 - April 2016 (91 comments)

pipeline_peak 4y ago

I hate to be egotistical, I’m sure like many people before me, I had the idea of a reader only browser. Of course I never came through with the idea because well…look how much unpaid work goes into it. As others have said, I don’t think Electron is well suited for anything to be resource friendly. I think it’s well suited for apps on machines that can afford to run Electron, not something as general purpose as a browser. Writing a browser is very hard, but something done in reader mode is clearly more feasible. I wanted to marry FreeText with Gumbo, OpenGL and C++. Maybe even throw in a built in RSS reader that displays the stripped pages. but I have no idea how to get FreeText working with OpenGL. I think if I could achieve this, I could get something that’s truly lightweight.

travisgriggs 4y ago
> Writing a browser is very hard And this pretty much sums up why I hate todays internet. Writing a telnet client was super easy. FTP, a little harder, but doable. Writing an SVG renderer using any canvas like tech (Cairo, canvas, CoreGraphics) is moderate, but again pretty doable. The fact that the w3c has churned out spec after spec that layers more and more complexity on something that was supposed to be a document viewer with links and such that we find ourselves in a position where advancing the state of the art requires a small nations state worth of resources, just to come current, is profoundly depressing.
- pipeline_peak 4y ago
  My biggest concern attempting to scrape out just the text and images. If this browser is anything like Safari Reader mode, it’s gonna fail to read all those modern pages that are entangled in template engine boilerplate snot. The web is far too bloated, but it’s been consumer centric for a long time, this was only expected. It’s not just an HTTP document viewer, it’s a pop up tabloid viewer…

bee_rider 4y ago

I liked suckles surf (which at least uses webkit2 rather than being yet another chrome). But in the end, the web is too complicated for simple tools, something like Firefox with extensions and stuff to handle downloaded files is pretty helpful. It seems quite unfortunate that such large programs are required to handle current web standards. Anything useful could be expressed as text in plain old html, but then, all the bloat needs to be there to pay the bills I guess.

mikl 4y ago

Looks nice, but since they can’t be bothered to get the Mac app properly signed, I can’t be bothered to try it. Sorry, but with the malware threat level being what it is, getting the app signatures right is table stakes.

ThinkBeat 4y ago

Would this mean that the browser gets security updates far slower than Chromium itself? Or is Electron updates as frequently?

deleted 4y ago

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dfex 4y ago

Feels very snappy, but for me it's a non-starter: rejects connection to any site with a self-signed certificate, with no apparent means of override. I get the security stance, but I configure a LOT of networking hardware via WebUI (eg: Palo Alto firewalls - self-signed from the factory) and this makes it next to useless.

tholdem 4y ago

One reason why mainstream web browsers are slow and "bulky" and use a lot of RAM is that they use all sorts of different exploit mitigation and hardening techniques. One can only wonder what these alternatives do when they claim to be minimal and fast and worse, private. Can there really be privacy without security?

mackrevinack 4y ago

tried this recently but like most alternative browsers, if it doesnt have support for ublock or dark reader then im usually back to firefox after a day or so. theres also another extension that i cant think of the name. it adds the url to the title of the window so that keepass/autotype can detect what site it is. i have a few other extensions but i would be willing to forego them if the browser was that good