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Why should be someone responsible for how the product of their labor is being used?

by t0suj4 4y ago

ithinkso 4y ago
That's why be don't deserve the title of engineer in software and we should stick with coder or programmer. 'Hi mate. We just bought this rebar from Alibaba, saved as a ton of money. Could you sign here real quick? We need to finish that bridge!'
- vintermann 4y ago
  Engineer doesn't imply honesty. In those jurisdiction where it's a protected title, it just implies that you have some mix of STEM topics in your degree. Software engineers, in these jurisdictions, have that mix, and are as real as bioengineers (a.k.a hospital lab workers), chemical process engineers, construction engineers, etc. No one has had their engineer title taken away for being a crook, as far as I know. Unless the crooked thing they did was fake their diploma. Titles won't fix this.
  - morelisp 4y ago
    It doesn't imply honesty. It does imply liability, so if something bad happens because you're dishonest, you will lose the title, and suffer other consequences.
  - thrwy_918 4y ago
    > No one has had their engineer title taken away for being a crook, as far as I know This seems an absurd claim, unless you're going to get very pedantic about some distinction between "engineer title" and "legal right to function as an engineer". > https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/engineer-s-licence-revoked-after-charbonneau-commission-scandal-1.5726286 https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/engineer-s-licence-revoked-after... This is one example found after just a few seconds of searching, but it is absolutely commonplace to have your engineering license revoked for carrying out criminal activity. > In those jurisdiction where it's a protected title, it just implies that you have some mix of STEM topics in your degree. This seems a bizarre claim too. In jurisdictions where membership of a professional licensing body is necessary in order to refer to oneself as an engineer and practice as an engineer, it is absolutely not the case that all you need is the right "mix of STEM topics in your degree". It means you have a certain degree, have completed a set amount of work experience, have completed a professional certification exam and then maintain that license, which may require meeting other requirements periodically. And yes, "not being a crook" is certainly one of those requirements, and being involved in major criminal activity, especially criminal activity related to your professional practice, is absolutely grounds for having your license and certification as an engineer revoked.
- t0suj4 4y ago
  I see the sign off as a transaction where the signee assumes responsibility for results being up to spec and all bets are off at this point.
laserlight 4y ago
Why not? Why do we keep Apple responsible for Foxconn's labor practices? Isn't Foxconn an independent company after all? The reason is because we don't want evil to spread by externalizing the responsibility to third parties.
- mirchibajji 4y ago
  Which specific engineers or individuals from Apple did you have in mind?
  - cyanydeez 4y ago
    The ones that specify foxconn parts
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
camgunz 4y ago
Most things are ambiguous, so you can have an argument about what intent was. Even things like firearms, you can say, "well, I made this gun so people can use it in self defense". This seems pretty unambiguous though. Sometimes you're just facilitating breaking the law, or making things dangerously unsafe.
PeterisP 4y ago
The tautological answer is that it's because we the people have made laws that in certain specific situations make people criminally responsible for how the product of their labor is being used. The practical answer is that it's because we do want to discourage criminals from "splitting liability" by having most of a gang doing some illegal goal together stay "clean" and only delegating a single "fall guy" for the final touch; so criminal law is explicitly written to consider everyone who knowingly assists a crime to be partly liable as well.

Why should be someone responsible for how the product of their labor is being used?

by t0suj4 4y ago

Why should be someone responsible for how the product of their labor is being used?

That's why be don't deserve the title of engineer in software and we should stick with coder or programmer. 'Hi mate. We just bought this rebar from Alibaba, saved as a ton of money. Could you sign here real quick? We need to finish that bridge!'

vintermann 4y ago
Engineer doesn't imply honesty. In those jurisdiction where it's a protected title, it just implies that you have some mix of STEM topics in your degree. Software engineers, in these jurisdictions, have that mix, and are as real as bioengineers (a.k.a hospital lab workers), chemical process engineers, construction engineers, etc. No one has had their engineer title taken away for being a crook, as far as I know. Unless the crooked thing they did was fake their diploma. Titles won't fix this.
- morelisp 4y ago
  It doesn't imply honesty. It does imply liability, so if something bad happens because you're dishonest, you will lose the title, and suffer other consequences.
- thrwy_918 4y ago
  > No one has had their engineer title taken away for being a crook, as far as I know This seems an absurd claim, unless you're going to get very pedantic about some distinction between "engineer title" and "legal right to function as an engineer". > https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/engineer-s-licence-revoked-after-charbonneau-commission-scandal-1.5726286 https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/engineer-s-licence-revoked-after... This is one example found after just a few seconds of searching, but it is absolutely commonplace to have your engineering license revoked for carrying out criminal activity. > In those jurisdiction where it's a protected title, it just implies that you have some mix of STEM topics in your degree. This seems a bizarre claim too. In jurisdictions where membership of a professional licensing body is necessary in order to refer to oneself as an engineer and practice as an engineer, it is absolutely not the case that all you need is the right "mix of STEM topics in your degree". It means you have a certain degree, have completed a set amount of work experience, have completed a professional certification exam and then maintain that license, which may require meeting other requirements periodically. And yes, "not being a crook" is certainly one of those requirements, and being involved in major criminal activity, especially criminal activity related to your professional practice, is absolutely grounds for having your license and certification as an engineer revoked.
t0suj4 4y ago
I see the sign off as a transaction where the signee assumes responsibility for results being up to spec and all bets are off at this point.

laserlight 4y ago

Why not? Why do we keep Apple responsible for Foxconn's labor practices? Isn't Foxconn an independent company after all? The reason is because we don't want evil to spread by externalizing the responsibility to third parties.

mirchibajji 4y ago
Which specific engineers or individuals from Apple did you have in mind?
- cyanydeez 4y ago
  The ones that specify foxconn parts
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

camgunz 4y ago

Most things are ambiguous, so you can have an argument about what intent was. Even things like firearms, you can say, "well, I made this gun so people can use it in self defense". This seems pretty unambiguous though. Sometimes you're just facilitating breaking the law, or making things dangerously unsafe.

PeterisP 4y ago

The tautological answer is that it's because we the people have made laws that in certain specific situations make people criminally responsible for how the product of their labor is being used. The practical answer is that it's because we do want to discourage criminals from "splitting liability" by having most of a gang doing some illegal goal together stay "clean" and only delegating a single "fall guy" for the final touch; so criminal law is explicitly written to consider everyone who knowingly assists a crime to be partly liable as well.