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Are you allowed to buy into a walled garden where developers can’t force you to sideload apps to use their apps? That’s what I want to do, but it seems the EU i

by cmdli 4y ago

Are you allowed to buy into a walled garden where developers can’t force you to sideload apps to use their apps? That’s what I want to do, but it seems the EU is making that illegal. It seems that users who value freedom can buy Android, and users who value security can buy Apple, but the second option is going away.

CleverLikeAnOx 4y ago
Can't you choose to only use apps on Apple's app store?
- jkcorrea 4y ago
  I believe the implication is there will now be less incentive for app developers to ship for App Store when they can get 80% of the way there with 0% of the “hoops” to jump through (I.e. Apple guidelines)
IIAOPSW 4y ago
No one is forcing you to use any app, let alone developers. Without this becoming a rant, what fraction of that "security" is protecting you from nothing more than apps that didn't pay the Apple tax. You must admit, the narrative that only approved apps are "good"/"safe" is insanely self serving and conveniently hard to falsify.
- cmdli 4y ago
  Let me provide a concrete example: right now I can download and use Facebook, with less tracking than Facebook likes, on the App Store. If Facebook is allowed to offer a sideloaded app with all the tracking included, what do you think the chances are they will keep the version on the App Store? If they remove it and only offer the new sideloaded version, I am worse off as a user than I am right now.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    If you don’t trust facebook without Apple’s help, maybe don’t use it? You have a point but without Apple’s restrictions, someone can build tracking free Facebook client too, if that’s something people want.
  - andrepew 4y ago
    I think this depends on how much friction side-loading ends up being. If I can just click a link and hit "run" like I can on a computer, yeah it could be an issue. If it requires diving in to Settings or connecting the phone to a computer -- Facebook would never abandon the App Store, friction to using side-loading would be too high.
  - IIAOPSW 4y ago
    The fb webpage still exists. No app. No permissions. No problems. If Facebook makes a change that kills the low-tracking front-ends and insists everyone be tracked more, and in response you grovel to them and put up with their new app, then no amount of EU law or App store law was ever going to protect you from yourself. Apple store polices are a red herring, the problem you're actually highlighting is the adversarial relation you have with fb.
  - Karunamon 4y ago
    That depends entirely on how much friction there is involved in the process. I think you know and Facebook knows that technical hoops at the level of, say, enabling developer menus on Android is a bridge too far for the average tech illiterate user. Reminder that Epic tried this with Fortnite and eventually went back on the play store. And this was on the platform that had sideloading since day one.
  - wlesieutre 4y ago
    I'm much more worried about games. Epic Games is going to put their own storefront on iOS, and it's going to have few if any of the polices for customer protection that the App Store does.
    - lern_too_spel 4y ago
smoldesu 4y ago
If Apple offers it, sure. "Introducing: iLess - A $15/month optional subscription fee that removes sideloading from your phone." Sure to be a smash hit, sounds like exactly what you're looking for!
nmridul 4y ago
You are also free not to download any app that forces you to sideload and can stay "secure".
- ben_w 4y ago
  I’m free to not work for a company whose ethics or contract I dislike. But only because I got a skill which made me a desirable employee elsewhere. I’m free to resolve my cancelled flight by either waiting a week for the free alternative or buying a combination of rail and ferry tickets to get me from Stansted to Berlin, but only because I have an understanding boss, enough money, and an app which can get me arbitrary hotels on route because that’s more than a day’s journey unless I plan to sleep in a train station. I’m free to not remain in a country whose politics or laws I dislike. But only because I got lucky with a few things. I’m free to not download any app which forces me to sideload. But only because they don’t exist yet on iOS (except for the ways that apparently never counted according to all the people demanding this) — there’s too many ways a theoretical “optional” can become an “actually mandatory”, from laws to employers to defacto monopolies, and those are just the ones I’ve seen examples of in other contexts.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
LightHugger 4y ago
What is this logic? Nobody is stopping you from staying in your walled garden. You want to stop other people from escaping it, though?
- cmdli 4y ago
  Nobody is stopping you from escaping the walled garden; you can absolutely go buy an Android device which is equivalent to an iPhone but without these sorts of restrictions. The trouble is that the walled garden approach only works if the wall goes all the way around. If Facebook, Google, or the other big ad companies are allowed to access the iOS ecosystem without consumer protections, then they absolutely will and will force users to go along with it. This is about developer freedom, not user freedom.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    > Nobody is stopping you from escaping the walled garden; Apple does. I buy a Macbook, and I can modify the bootloader to completely leave MacOS. It's a pain in the ass, and Apple certainly doesn't make it easy as it was on x86, but it's an option. Even if I use MacOS, I still have the option to disable system integrity, install unsigned apps and use third-party software managers. That's a system that lets me escape the walled garden. They give me concessions inside their OS and an escape-hatch for third-party OSes if they really fuck things up. The iPhone has none of those things. If you buy an iPhone, your only way to leave the walled garden is to not use the iPhone. Buying an Android phone does not break your iPhone out of the walled garden.
- sircastor 4y ago
  A walled garden they willing walked into and willingly can leave at any time? It’s not as though there’s nowhere else to go. The trouble is people want all the benefits of the walled garden without the wall.
fweimer 4y ago
It's typically one aspect of (mobile) device management on platforms that support side-loading out of the box.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by cmdli 4y ago

CleverLikeAnOx 4y ago

Can't you choose to only use apps on Apple's app store?

jkcorrea 4y ago
I believe the implication is there will now be less incentive for app developers to ship for App Store when they can get 80% of the way there with 0% of the “hoops” to jump through (I.e. Apple guidelines)

IIAOPSW 4y ago

No one is forcing you to use any app, let alone developers. Without this becoming a rant, what fraction of that "security" is protecting you from nothing more than apps that didn't pay the Apple tax. You must admit, the narrative that only approved apps are "good"/"safe" is insanely self serving and conveniently hard to falsify.

cmdli 4y ago
Let me provide a concrete example: right now I can download and use Facebook, with less tracking than Facebook likes, on the App Store. If Facebook is allowed to offer a sideloaded app with all the tracking included, what do you think the chances are they will keep the version on the App Store? If they remove it and only offer the new sideloaded version, I am worse off as a user than I am right now.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  If you don’t trust facebook without Apple’s help, maybe don’t use it? You have a point but without Apple’s restrictions, someone can build tracking free Facebook client too, if that’s something people want.
- andrepew 4y ago
  I think this depends on how much friction side-loading ends up being. If I can just click a link and hit "run" like I can on a computer, yeah it could be an issue. If it requires diving in to Settings or connecting the phone to a computer -- Facebook would never abandon the App Store, friction to using side-loading would be too high.
- IIAOPSW 4y ago
  The fb webpage still exists. No app. No permissions. No problems. If Facebook makes a change that kills the low-tracking front-ends and insists everyone be tracked more, and in response you grovel to them and put up with their new app, then no amount of EU law or App store law was ever going to protect you from yourself. Apple store polices are a red herring, the problem you're actually highlighting is the adversarial relation you have with fb.
- Karunamon 4y ago
  That depends entirely on how much friction there is involved in the process. I think you know and Facebook knows that technical hoops at the level of, say, enabling developer menus on Android is a bridge too far for the average tech illiterate user. Reminder that Epic tried this with Fortnite and eventually went back on the play store. And this was on the platform that had sideloading since day one.
- wlesieutre 4y ago
  I'm much more worried about games. Epic Games is going to put their own storefront on iOS, and it's going to have few if any of the polices for customer protection that the App Store does.
  - lern_too_spel 4y ago

smoldesu 4y ago

If Apple offers it, sure. "Introducing: iLess - A $15/month optional subscription fee that removes sideloading from your phone." Sure to be a smash hit, sounds like exactly what you're looking for!

nmridul 4y ago

You are also free not to download any app that forces you to sideload and can stay "secure".

ben_w 4y ago
I’m free to not work for a company whose ethics or contract I dislike. But only because I got a skill which made me a desirable employee elsewhere. I’m free to resolve my cancelled flight by either waiting a week for the free alternative or buying a combination of rail and ferry tickets to get me from Stansted to Berlin, but only because I have an understanding boss, enough money, and an app which can get me arbitrary hotels on route because that’s more than a day’s journey unless I plan to sleep in a train station. I’m free to not remain in a country whose politics or laws I dislike. But only because I got lucky with a few things. I’m free to not download any app which forces me to sideload. But only because they don’t exist yet on iOS (except for the ways that apparently never counted according to all the people demanding this) — there’s too many ways a theoretical “optional” can become an “actually mandatory”, from laws to employers to defacto monopolies, and those are just the ones I’ve seen examples of in other contexts.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

LightHugger 4y ago

What is this logic? Nobody is stopping you from staying in your walled garden. You want to stop other people from escaping it, though?

cmdli 4y ago
Nobody is stopping you from escaping the walled garden; you can absolutely go buy an Android device which is equivalent to an iPhone but without these sorts of restrictions. The trouble is that the walled garden approach only works if the wall goes all the way around. If Facebook, Google, or the other big ad companies are allowed to access the iOS ecosystem without consumer protections, then they absolutely will and will force users to go along with it. This is about developer freedom, not user freedom.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  > Nobody is stopping you from escaping the walled garden; Apple does. I buy a Macbook, and I can modify the bootloader to completely leave MacOS. It's a pain in the ass, and Apple certainly doesn't make it easy as it was on x86, but it's an option. Even if I use MacOS, I still have the option to disable system integrity, install unsigned apps and use third-party software managers. That's a system that lets me escape the walled garden. They give me concessions inside their OS and an escape-hatch for third-party OSes if they really fuck things up. The iPhone has none of those things. If you buy an iPhone, your only way to leave the walled garden is to not use the iPhone. Buying an Android phone does not break your iPhone out of the walled garden.
sircastor 4y ago
A walled garden they willing walked into and willingly can leave at any time? It’s not as though there’s nowhere else to go. The trouble is people want all the benefits of the walled garden without the wall.

fweimer 4y ago

It's typically one aspect of (mobile) device management on platforms that support side-loading out of the box.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]