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Strange. One HN thread US users whining about not being able to transfer their own currency to others without either multi-hour delays or costs. Whereas in the

Strange. One HN thread US users whining about not being able to transfer their own currency to others without either multi-hour delays or costs. Whereas in the EU we're able to transfer funds near-instantaneously using our bank's smartphone apps. And yet in this article "innovation" seems to mean "creating companies that don't make a profit"

seydor 4y ago
I think it's more about the mindset behind your comment
raverbashing 4y ago
For real Seems that innovations that don't involve shaking down the consumer 3 times before lunch are not really innovations in the US
- hocuspocus 4y ago
  I think the best illustration of this is Instacart: they basically re-invented what many supermarkets in Europe and Asia had been doing for 10+ years already, only with huge markups and gig workers exploitation.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    FWIW, many grocery stores in the US had delivery many years before Instacart came around. Europeans have this really weird, ignorant understanding of America.
    - hocuspocus 4y ago
      Yet Instacart managed to raise $2.9B, that makes it even worse.
itake 4y ago
Most banks in the US use a free service called Zelle. Transfers take minutes [0], not hours. Apps like CashApp or Venmo take seconds (for on-platform transfers). [1] - https://www.zellepay.com/faq/how-long-does-it-take-receive-money-zelle https://www.zellepay.com/faq/how-long-does-it-take-receive-m...
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  And you get to play the game of who has which app and who can proxy money around from one app to the other any time you want to organize a purchase amongst a group of friends.
  - 4ndrewl 4y ago
    I guess that's "innovative"?
  - itake 4y ago
    Again, most banks offer Zelle. > who has which app As opposed to what? A monopoly where a single company controls features and prices?
    - 4ndrewl 4y ago
      Regulation, as per EU and many other countries?
    - function_seven 4y ago
      As opposed to a neutral protocol not controlled by any one entity. Think of it like email or the telephone network, versus the various instant messaging silos.
    - rad_gruchalski 4y ago
      > A monopoly where a single company controls features and prices? That’s not what SEPA is.
    - KptMarchewa 4y ago
toomim 4y ago
Bank transfers aren't about technology; they are created by government regulation. SEPA is a government standard. The US government, in a sense, couldn't regulate its banks into fast transfers.
- SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
  Sometimes a standard _is_ a technology. e.g. the shape and electrical characteristics of a plug, and what it enables when this is widespread. e.g. is Open Banking (1) a technology or a European Parliament directive? It's a bit of both. To paraphrase you: The US government couldn't yet regulate its banks into (the social advantages of adopting a uniform technology of) fast transfers. It's coming but the US is hardly at the forefront of this (2) Nigeria has one already (3) 1 ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_banking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_banking 2) https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow/about.html https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow/about.... 3) https://nibss-plc.com.ng/about https://nibss-plc.com.ng/about
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  But it could at least let me to do SEPA payment from internet banking (as is usual in EU), instead of forcing me personally into a bank do it from there. Ridiculous. (BBVA in US)
super256 4y ago
European FX transactions still settle T+2, similar to the US, Canada, and India. T+1 is planned to be implemented in late 2024. If your bank provides an instant settlement, they are most likely paying you out of their pocket, and therefore taking risk.
- 4ndrewl 4y ago
  Apologies, my post was ambiguous. I meant same-currency transfer to other people (as opposed to between accounts held by the same person) not FX.
- crote 4y ago
  Does TARGET TIPS not count as settlement? According to its own website [0], it means "individuals and firms can transfer money between each other within seconds", and "TIPS offers final and irrevocable settlement of instant payments in euro, at any time of day and on any day of the year." [0]: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/target/tips/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/target/tips/html/index.en.htm...
Sakos 4y ago
Meh, the article is just hogwash and/or clickbait trash. They never define "innovation" and it seems like they're complaining that we value something other than massive tech companies that barely create jobs or value. https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PATS_IPC https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PATS_IPC This is a stupid measure (number of patents), but it's better than whatever nothing is in that article. Seems like the EU is doing fine. The EU has issues, but "Europe not being good at innovating" is quite the leap that I doubt they can actually base in fact. I wonder what else the author will suggest in their next article. Loosening labor regulations?
- Sakos 4y ago
  As for AI: https://www.statista.com/statistics/939627/ai-publications-worldwide-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/939627/ai-publications-w... Hmmm. Also looks like we're doing fine.
  - auveair 4y ago
    Stable Diffusion was a big blow against OpenAI and was made at LMU Munich, Germany.
- amadeuspagel 4y ago
  Number of patents is a stupid measure and it's not better then common sense and common knowledge. You're writing this on a device produced in asia, and designed in the US, running an operating system made by a US company, using a browser made by a US company. But european companies have patents, so they're doing fine.
  - dermesser 4y ago
    Using machines developed and produced in Europe (ASML, for example). Innovation is not defined by who makes your phone
    - xadhominemx 4y ago
davidw 4y ago
Having lived in both places - Italy and the US - there are good and bad things about both, and it's kind of maddening to not see the good stuff copied faster. Here's an old post about window technology. Screens and shutters. https://blog.therealitaly.com/2007/08/09/window-technology/ https://blog.therealitaly.com/2007/08/09/window-technology/
rootusrootus 4y ago
> US users whining about not being able to transfer their own currency to others without either multi-hour delays or costs Never heard that in real life, everyone I know just uses Venmo. I occasionally use Zelle and Apple, too, but frankly I like having the money transfer service at arm's length from my real bank. Especially when I'm transacting with a stranger.
- rpep 4y ago
  I really don’t think people in the US realise quite how far behind it is in banking services. In the U.K. we’ve had online banking for 20 years now, and telephone banking before that. With most banks you can send an amount up to £25k to any account in the country and the money will be there pretty much instantly. All you need is the name of the person/business and their 6-digit sort code and 8 digit account number. Since about 18 months ago, it automatically warns you if the persons name doesn’t match on the name on the account. We’ve had chip cards and PIN rather than signature in Europe since the early 2000s, and contactless cards started being launched in 2007.
  - rambambram 4y ago
    Exactly! And this is only describing UK. Paying from let's say the Netherlands to Greece or Sweden or Portugal, with my regular internet banking app from my real bank, I can transfer money within one business day without additional costs.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    I have no interest in giving a stranger my account number. Heck, for Zelle I'd have to give them my email address and that's already too much. Chip & pin for most people is less convenient, so you'd not find too many Americans thinking they were behind in that regard. The PIN does give some added security, which is great if you are a bank because it's easier to justify denying any fraud claims. About the only thing I might agree on that is a meaningful limit is sending money between my accounts at different institutions. Instant only if I do it at the branch, less instant if I want to make it happen through my smartphone.
steele 4y ago
Serial gamblers lamenting access to exploiting EU labor to the fullest extent
nine_k 4y ago
In the US, transfers within a bank, or within a cooperating group of major banks (e,g, via Zelle), are instant. You can use services like PayPal, Venmo, Western Union, etc to quickly transfer money between card accounts, including across the world; not instant but within 10 minutes or so, and not for free. Transfers and payments using more traditional infrastructure like credit cards are not instant, they have settlement time. That time is there not because the systems are technically slow, but because it's a mandated time window to revert transactions, either fraudulent or done by mistake.

seydor 4y ago

I think it's more about the mindset behind your comment

raverbashing 4y ago

For real Seems that innovations that don't involve shaking down the consumer 3 times before lunch are not really innovations in the US

hocuspocus 4y ago
I think the best illustration of this is Instacart: they basically re-invented what many supermarkets in Europe and Asia had been doing for 10+ years already, only with huge markups and gig workers exploitation.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  FWIW, many grocery stores in the US had delivery many years before Instacart came around. Europeans have this really weird, ignorant understanding of America.
  - hocuspocus 4y ago
    Yet Instacart managed to raise $2.9B, that makes it even worse.

itake 4y ago

Most banks in the US use a free service called Zelle. Transfers take minutes [0], not hours. Apps like CashApp or Venmo take seconds (for on-platform transfers). [1] - https://www.zellepay.com/faq/how-long-does-it-take-receive-money-zelle https://www.zellepay.com/faq/how-long-does-it-take-receive-m...

hotpotamus 4y ago
And you get to play the game of who has which app and who can proxy money around from one app to the other any time you want to organize a purchase amongst a group of friends.
- 4ndrewl 4y ago
  I guess that's "innovative"?
- itake 4y ago
  Again, most banks offer Zelle. > who has which app As opposed to what? A monopoly where a single company controls features and prices?
  - 4ndrewl 4y ago
    Regulation, as per EU and many other countries?
  - function_seven 4y ago
    As opposed to a neutral protocol not controlled by any one entity. Think of it like email or the telephone network, versus the various instant messaging silos.
  - rad_gruchalski 4y ago
    > A monopoly where a single company controls features and prices? That’s not what SEPA is.
  - KptMarchewa 4y ago

toomim 4y ago

Bank transfers aren't about technology; they are created by government regulation. SEPA is a government standard. The US government, in a sense, couldn't regulate its banks into fast transfers.

SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
Sometimes a standard _is_ a technology. e.g. the shape and electrical characteristics of a plug, and what it enables when this is widespread. e.g. is Open Banking (1) a technology or a European Parliament directive? It's a bit of both. To paraphrase you: The US government couldn't yet regulate its banks into (the social advantages of adopting a uniform technology of) fast transfers. It's coming but the US is hardly at the forefront of this (2) Nigeria has one already (3) 1 ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_banking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_banking 2) https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow/about.html https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow/about.... 3) https://nibss-plc.com.ng/about https://nibss-plc.com.ng/about
TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
But it could at least let me to do SEPA payment from internet banking (as is usual in EU), instead of forcing me personally into a bank do it from there. Ridiculous. (BBVA in US)

super256 4y ago

European FX transactions still settle T+2, similar to the US, Canada, and India. T+1 is planned to be implemented in late 2024. If your bank provides an instant settlement, they are most likely paying you out of their pocket, and therefore taking risk.

4ndrewl 4y ago
Apologies, my post was ambiguous. I meant same-currency transfer to other people (as opposed to between accounts held by the same person) not FX.
crote 4y ago
Does TARGET TIPS not count as settlement? According to its own website [0], it means "individuals and firms can transfer money between each other within seconds", and "TIPS offers final and irrevocable settlement of instant payments in euro, at any time of day and on any day of the year." [0]: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/target/tips/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/target/tips/html/index.en.htm...

Sakos 4y ago

Meh, the article is just hogwash and/or clickbait trash. They never define "innovation" and it seems like they're complaining that we value something other than massive tech companies that barely create jobs or value. https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PATS_IPC https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PATS_IPC This is a stupid measure (number of patents), but it's better than whatever nothing is in that article. Seems like the EU is doing fine. The EU has issues, but "Europe not being good at innovating" is quite the leap that I doubt they can actually base in fact. I wonder what else the author will suggest in their next article. Loosening labor regulations?

Sakos 4y ago
As for AI: https://www.statista.com/statistics/939627/ai-publications-worldwide-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/939627/ai-publications-w... Hmmm. Also looks like we're doing fine.
- auveair 4y ago
  Stable Diffusion was a big blow against OpenAI and was made at LMU Munich, Germany.
amadeuspagel 4y ago
Number of patents is a stupid measure and it's not better then common sense and common knowledge. You're writing this on a device produced in asia, and designed in the US, running an operating system made by a US company, using a browser made by a US company. But european companies have patents, so they're doing fine.
- dermesser 4y ago
  Using machines developed and produced in Europe (ASML, for example). Innovation is not defined by who makes your phone
  - xadhominemx 4y ago

davidw 4y ago

Having lived in both places - Italy and the US - there are good and bad things about both, and it's kind of maddening to not see the good stuff copied faster. Here's an old post about window technology. Screens and shutters. https://blog.therealitaly.com/2007/08/09/window-technology/ https://blog.therealitaly.com/2007/08/09/window-technology/

rootusrootus 4y ago

> US users whining about not being able to transfer their own currency to others without either multi-hour delays or costs Never heard that in real life, everyone I know just uses Venmo. I occasionally use Zelle and Apple, too, but frankly I like having the money transfer service at arm's length from my real bank. Especially when I'm transacting with a stranger.

rpep 4y ago
I really don’t think people in the US realise quite how far behind it is in banking services. In the U.K. we’ve had online banking for 20 years now, and telephone banking before that. With most banks you can send an amount up to £25k to any account in the country and the money will be there pretty much instantly. All you need is the name of the person/business and their 6-digit sort code and 8 digit account number. Since about 18 months ago, it automatically warns you if the persons name doesn’t match on the name on the account. We’ve had chip cards and PIN rather than signature in Europe since the early 2000s, and contactless cards started being launched in 2007.
- rambambram 4y ago
  Exactly! And this is only describing UK. Paying from let's say the Netherlands to Greece or Sweden or Portugal, with my regular internet banking app from my real bank, I can transfer money within one business day without additional costs.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I have no interest in giving a stranger my account number. Heck, for Zelle I'd have to give them my email address and that's already too much. Chip & pin for most people is less convenient, so you'd not find too many Americans thinking they were behind in that regard. The PIN does give some added security, which is great if you are a bank because it's easier to justify denying any fraud claims. About the only thing I might agree on that is a meaningful limit is sending money between my accounts at different institutions. Instant only if I do it at the branch, less instant if I want to make it happen through my smartphone.

steele 4y ago

Serial gamblers lamenting access to exploiting EU labor to the fullest extent

nine_k 4y ago

In the US, transfers within a bank, or within a cooperating group of major banks (e,g, via Zelle), are instant. You can use services like PayPal, Venmo, Western Union, etc to quickly transfer money between card accounts, including across the world; not instant but within 10 minutes or so, and not for free. Transfers and payments using more traditional infrastructure like credit cards are not instant, they have settlement time. That time is there not because the systems are technically slow, but because it's a mandated time window to revert transactions, either fraudulent or done by mistake.