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There are some comments in here that verge on assuming bad faith on the part of the companies involved, so I think it's worth pointing out that this is a new la
by paulgb 4y ago
There are some comments in here that verge on assuming bad faith on the part of the companies involved, so I think it's worth pointing out that this is a new law which has been in effect for just over a month. It's been on the way for a while, so it's not “sudden”, but it’s still a new thing that people are figuring out and it’s easier to forget about if you’re in the habit of re-using old listings. (Not about OP, whose reminder is helpful and in good faith!)
- freeopinion 4y agoDo you make the same argument for new speed limit signs? Abortion restrictions? Minimum wage requirements?
- Osiris 4y agoThis has been law in Colorado for 2 years and applies to anyone offering jobs to any Colorado resident including remote jobs. The law passed in 2019 and went into effect Jan 1, 2021.
- ntonozzi 4y agoAnd yet many job postings, even those that are only in Colorado, still don't have the salary on the job posting.
- Osiris 4y agoMy point is that it’s not a new law. It’s new for New York but other states have required it for a long time.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- lotsofpulp 4y agoOnly one jurisdiction other than NYC (not New York State) requires it, which is CO, and only as of Jan 1, 2021. NYC started Nov 1, 2022. CA and WA start Jan 1, 2023. NY state is waiting on governor’s signature, but seeing as how it has been months and she has not signed it, I assume she will not.
- googlryas 4y agoI was just in a Walgreens near Boulder a few days ago and noticed that they were advertising for pharmacy assistants and didn't post their salary range, and also didn't list it even after I went to sign up online for the job. So I have to guess a lot of employers are disregarding the law. I was also disappointed when I found out there wasn't a particularly easy way to report the violation to the state. It could just be a webform that I fill out that takes 2 minutes, but there was so much overhead that I decided I didn't care enough to complete it.
- lotsofpulp 4y agoIf I search for job listings for Boulder, CO or Colorado, US on Walgreens' website, I get zero results. It did pop up with New York City job listings, like this one: https://jobs.walgreens.com/en/job/new-york/duane-reade-shift-leader/1242/41418835488 https://jobs.walgreens.com/en/job/new-york/duane-reade-shift... Which do not list the pay range, but have tiny text at the bottom that says >To see the salary range for this position please click here: Pay Transparency Duane Reade Shift Leader . https://jobs.walgreens.com/en/paydrsfl https://jobs.walgreens.com/en/paydrsfl And then if you search for similar positions, you get: https://jobs.walgreens.com/en/paypht https://jobs.walgreens.com/en/paypht https://jobs.walgreens.com/en/payhsrph https://jobs.walgreens.com/en/payhsrph
- googlryas 4y agoCheck the site "walgreens.jobs", the listings are still there. Here's a photo I took of the posting: https://i.imgur.com/jSl1Rjk.png https://i.imgur.com/jSl1Rjk.png
- lotsofpulp 4y agoOh, something must be broken with their search, or my Safari content blocker is blocking something which is breaking the search. I found the a job listing in boulder here, which has the same pay range link as above: https://jobs.walgreens.com/en/job/boulder/pharmacy-technician-pharm-tech-apprenticeship/1242/41423880416 https://jobs.walgreens.com/en/job/boulder/pharmacy-technicia... But yes, per CO law, the job posting you took a picture of should also state the same pay range and benefit info (page 4). https://cdle.colorado.gov/sites/cdle/files/7%20CCR%201103-13%20Equal%20Pay%20Transparency%20Rules.pdf https://cdle.colorado.gov/sites/cdle/files/7%20CCR%201103-13...
- asdajksah2123 4y agoHas Colorado actually enforced the law? The major difference with the NY law is that NY is actually expected to enforce it. That being said, the law is deliberately expected to be leniently enforced, starting with warnings, and only after the warning has been issued will fines be enforced. Also, another big difference is that other major states (CA & WA I believe) are expected to enact similar laws in 2023, so most US companies are pretty much switching over to displaying salary ranges by default nationally.
- brightball 4y agoIt would be interesting to see if remote jobs were posted with a qualifier that they weren't available to potential employees living in those states. I just always wonder about inverse effects for this type of thing.
- lotsofpulp 4y agoThere were or are remote job listings that excluded people living in Colorado. Any any new job listing could choose to exclude residents of NYC/CO/WA/CA. Pretty good signal of a less desirable employer though.
- zacharybk 4y agoDifferent companies clearly have different legal teams giving differing advice. I found this one fascinating: “If you are a Colorado or New York City resident and this role is a remote role, you can receive additional information about the compensation and benefits for this role, which we will provide upon request. Requests can be submitted here.“ link: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScOlYgPtpG56uqO0O9j5bYdhsMtTaE3ktqlT36ckwo88Ye-NQ/viewform https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScOlYgPtpG56uqO0O9j... When I submitted my information I did not hear back, which does feel like a blatant violation of the law(s)
- nathanaldensr 4y agoIt amounts to plausible deniability. "We do just enough so you are less likely to sue us."
- zacharybk 4y agoDo they blame this one on the lowest level recruiting employee who “must have forgotten to do their job”? That’s as plausible as what SBF’s defense will be.
- lotsofpulp 4y agoVery blatant violation. They are just hoping they do not get nailed, and if they do, the fines are cheap enough to still make it worth hiding the pay range. See page 4, it is spelled out pretty clearly that the posting itself needs to advertise the range. https://cdle.colorado.gov/sites/cdle/files/7%20CCR%201103-13%20Equal%20Pay%20Transparency%20Rules.pdf https://cdle.colorado.gov/sites/cdle/files/7%20CCR%201103-13...
- zacharybk 4y agoI actually heard back from them today! Crazy how long it took them
- indymike 4y ago>There are some comments in here that verge on assuming bad faith on the part of the companies involved Not disclosing pay is illegal in three states in the US, and has the practical effect of reducing the number of applicants to the advertised job by 14%, so it's self-harming for the employer anyway. Bonus: a lot of job boards will just plug an "estimated salary" in for you to max their CTR and revenue on syndication. > people are figuring out and it’s easier to forget about if you’re in the habit of re-using old listings. Some companies don't hire very often, so yes. But for startups and venture funded, high growth companies to be unaware after two years is not cool. We need to do better... and you can see from the people posting here, some of them would rather report employers to the AG than get a job at that company. I'm not sure how productive that is, but I do think it shows why a law was required to get a minimal level of disclosure.
- kuboble 4y agoAre the companies indeed inflicting self harm? They might get less applications that way, but posting salary ranges for new employees has other downsides - e.g. it might tilt existing employees. Another downside is that it's easy to scrap and collect this data and companies might not like candidates or employees easily accessing historical data. Sharing salary range basically reduces the knowledge advantage of a company in many ways. It's surely great for candidates and existing employees.
- indymike 4y ago> Are the companies indeed inflicting self harm? They are spending 14% more on recruitment advertising than they would have to if they just put a range in the salary box. So, yes, financial self harm. 14% is substantial for many companies. > ther downsides - e.g. it might tilt existing employees. People have access to wage data and job boards in their pocket. If they answer that unknown caller, it's as likely to be a recruiter as a car warranty hustle. It's amazing how many business leaders think that their people are not going to look.
- robocat 4y ago
- reaperducer 4y agoI think it's worth pointing out that this is a new law which has been in effect for just over a month I hope you don't mind if I don't weep for the billion dollar VC's that encourage others to "move fast," but are unable to respond to changes in the law. If only they had enough money to hire a lawyer! This law didn't suddenly materialize overnight last month. No laws do. It was in the works for months, perhaps longer. All companies are responsible for keeping tabs on legislation that may affect them. From the corner doughnut shop to billion-dollar startup incubators. That Ycombinator missed this says something is wrong behind the curtain.
- anigbrowl 4y agothis is a new law which has been in effect for just over a month So what? The idea of transparency on salaries is not a new one. Why would I want to do business with a company that won't even tell me how much they're offering for a job when asked? That just wastes people's time. I don't care for this legalistic and disingenuous approach to business, it's an indicator that management is not going to be transparent with people who work there and is relying on information asymmetries rather than actually trying to build a team. Anyone acting like they don't know that potential hires have a strong interest in knowing what a job potentially pays is BSing you.
- roflyear 4y agoHow much of a heads up did people get?
- mejutoco 4y agoGood thing that in law "ignorantia juris non excusat" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat